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Anonymous wrote:My son is in a school that bans media (waldorf). Now, the parents don't live up to it 100%, but these kids watch A LOT less than other kids. They do live in our culture and so aren't completely exempt from gender norms, but it is amazing what you see on the playground - all the kids playing together in very similar ways. Biological differences do not manifest themselves in the ways we think they do (trucks on the one hand and tutus on the other is a great example of our nonsensical gender norming). Much of this stuff is learned though media.

That said. I still think you should just smile and say, "sometimes."

There is a group of girls playing tackle football?

Are the boys playing tackle football during recess at your child's school? They sure aren't at mine (MCPS). But not because of gender norms. Because tackling is one of the long list of things the children are not allowed to do during recess.

No, of course my boys don't go to MCPS.. They go to an all boys school where they are allowed to be boys. Yes, they play tackle fottball.

Really, no one should be playing tackle football. This isn't a gender thing. The brain research that is emerging is very scary. One concussion can cause eventual, long-term damage, and repeated concussions are devastating (personality changes!). We can't bubble-wrap our kids, but we can keep them out of activities likely to cause concussions!

No... It is only true for amulet men wearing helmets... Continue with the feminization of boys.

No the research I've seen also applies to high schoolers. I don't know they have studied elementary aged kids (their brains are more plastic and so may recover better but no way, NO WAY, would I chance it especially before research has been done). BTW, the "feminination of boys" fear has been going on at least since the early 1900s (groups like the boy scots were formed because a fear our boys were becoming soft, not allowed to be boys etc).

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Anonymous wrote:Are the boys playing tackle football during recess at your child's school? They sure aren't at mine (MCPS). But not because of gender norms. Because tackling is one of the long list of things the children are not allowed to do during recess.

No, of course my boys don't go to MCPS.. They go to an all boys school where they are allowed to be boys. Yes, they play tackle fottball.

See, now I am confused. About half of the children in my child's class at my child's MCPS school are boys. They are boys before school, they are boys during school, they are boys after school, they know they are boys, everybody knows they are boys, there's no secret -- there they are, all day long, boys being boys. At what school are boys not allowed to be boys? Girls' schools?

No. They are told to sit down be quiet and act like a girl all day. Many studies show schools are girl oriented. Boys work better in groups and not in lecture/worksheet environments.

When they act like a boy the are told they are loud and rough and ill behaved or ADHD.

At MCPS boys are not allowed to be boys... When they are all boy... The 1/2 boys are fine.

So what happens when they are adults and have to get a job that, wait for it, involves sitting most of the day and behaving and not acting out? Or is that work only suited for women?

Sitting down and being quiet isn't "acting like a girl." And lots of girls have trouble with it, too.

Your post is revealing, though. I'm guessing your kids are unruly, but you justify it with "boys being boys" or "they're all boy!" Ugh.

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I have boys and I will be the first to say my 2 are 'all boy'. They are athletic, rough and tumble, lots of physical energy, and hear selectively. These are the most universally accepted traits of males.

I'm clearly distinguishing them from some boys that have different demeanors that are not as universally characterized. More quiet, less physical energy, not into the outdoors. There is nothing wrong with these other boys, they just don't fit the stereotypical mold.

And that's just it, it's a widely accepted stereotype so when someone says "all boy" you know what they are talking about.

No need to get so defensive.

So are boys who are not athletic not "all boy"? Do you not see how obnoxious and offensive that is? Or all you be "all girl" by being passive aggressive?

Are you purposely being obtuse? (not pp) Being athletic is a stereotypically boyish thing. Denying that doesn't make it less true. It doesn't mean that boys who aren't athletic aren't boys, that girls who are athletic are boys or aren't girls, etc. GOOD LORD PEOPLE.

It's a self-fulfilling stereotype. THAT is the problem!!!!! By continuing to use stupid phrases like that and continuing to promote that stereotype, we create that reality. Let's drop the stereotype. There's nothing intrinsic about being a girl that makes her less interested in movement, in nature, in running around a playground.

+1. Exactly what I thought. Let's stop parroting these dumb sayings that perpetuate these outdated stereotypes. "Being athletic is a stereotypically boyish thing" is like saying "being quiet and obedient is a stereotypically girlish thing."

To the last 2 pp.'s: Okay, let's drop the stereotype and all boys and girls can be stereotyped as unisex. Let's dress them all in grey and give them all unisex bob cuts, let's name some boys Larla and some girls Johnny to keep it fair, and dress them alike, how about a shirt and kilt/skirt type outfit so there is no gender preference?


Seriously, no one is saying your quiet, book loving boy is not a boy and no one is saying your soccer champ Larla isn't athletic. Yes, there are intrinsically different things that make up a boy and a girl. To deny that is ludicrous. I was a nature loving, outdoorsy girl that loved running and climbing trees. But I am a female and even though I could hang with the boys, I know am intrinsically different from them. This is NOT a bad thing!

Anonymous wrote:No one is saying you made your boys into boys. What we are saying is that the "way they are" isn't because they are boys. You could have girls who are just like that. Being "all boy" just means having male sex parts. It doesn't mean all of this other personality stuff that occurs in males and females. Boys who aren't like your boys aren't less boy than yours, so to say that those personality traits make your boys "all boy" is ridiculous and absurd.

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I have boys and I will be the first to say my 2 are 'all boy'. They are athletic, rough and tumble, lots of physical energy, and hear selectively. These are the most universally accepted traits of males.

I'm clearly distinguishing them from some boys that have different demeanors that are not as universally characterized. More quiet, less physical energy, not into the outdoors. There is nothing wrong with these other boys, they just don't fit the stereotypical mold.

And that's just it, it's a widely accepted stereotype so when someone says "all boy" you know what they are talking about.

No need to get so defensive.

So are boys who are not athletic not "all boy"? Do you not see how obnoxious and offensive that is? Or all you be "all girl" by being passive aggressive?

Are you purposely being obtuse? (not pp) Being athletic is a stereotypically boyish thing. Denying that doesn't make it less true. It doesn't mean that boys who aren't athletic aren't boys, that girls who are athletic are boys or aren't girls, etc. GOOD LORD PEOPLE.

It's a self-fulfilling stereotype. THAT is the problem!!!!! By continuing to use stupid phrases like that and continuing to promote that stereotype, we create that reality. Let's drop the stereotype. There's nothing intrinsic about being a girl that makes her less interested in movement, in nature, in running around a playground.

+1. Exactly what I thought. Let's stop parroting these dumb sayings that perpetuate these outdated stereotypes. "Being athletic is a stereotypically boyish thing" is like saying "being quiet and obedient is a stereotypically girlish thing."

To the last 2 pp.'s: Okay, let's drop the stereotype and all boys and girls can be stereotyped as unisex. Let's dress them all in grey and give them all unisex bob cuts, let's name some boys Larla and some girls Johnny to keep it fair, and dress them alike, how about a shirt and kilt/skirt type outfit so there is no gender preference?


Seriously, no one is saying your quiet, book loving boy is not a boy and no one is saying your soccer champ Larla isn't athletic. Yes, there are intrinsically different things that make up a boy and a girl. To deny that is ludicrous. I was a nature loving, outdoorsy girl that loved running and climbing trees. But I am a female and even though I could hang with the boys, I know am intrinsically different from them. This is NOT a bad thing!

But, yes, they are. They are saying he's not "all boy." That's why the phrase is ridiculous.

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Anonymous wrote:
To the last 2 pp.'s: Okay, let's drop the stereotype and all boys and girls can be stereotyped as unisex. Let's dress them all in grey and give them all unisex bob cuts, let's name some boys Larla and some girls Johnny to keep it fair, and dress them alike, how about a shirt and kilt/skirt type outfit so there is no gender preference?

Seriously, no one is saying your quiet, book loving boy is not a boy and no one is saying your soccer champ Larla isn't athletic. Yes, there are intrinsically different things that make up a boy and a girl. To deny that is ludicrous. I was a nature loving, outdoorsy girl that loved running and climbing trees. But I am a female and even though I could hang with the boys, I know am intrinsically different from them. This is NOT a bad thing!

Alternatively, let's drop the stereotypes, period. Now that's a good idea.

(And yes, people actually are saying that quiet, book-loving boys are not proper boys; they're girly boys*.)

*Girls, ew. Gay men, ew.

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If you don't have kids then obviously you have not experienced for yourself the simple fact that some boys are born being interested in typically boy things and acting in typically boy ways, and are not coerced into them as some (like you) would argue. I was shocked that my boys showed ME who they were and what they were interested in, not the other way around. You just don't know that until you see it for yourself. I couldn't care less about cement trucks, for example, and would never in a million years point them out as something of interest as we were walking around the block or driving around -- and yet both my boys found such things incredibly interesting. THEY pointed them out TO ME. So if someone apologetically says, "They're all boy" maybe it's to deflect the blame you are placing at their feet. You really don't know, PP.

And if you don't have daughters then obviously you have not experienced for yourself that some girls do this too. Including cement trucks. You really don't know, PP.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son is in a school that bans media (waldorf). Now, the parents don't live up to it 100%, but these kids watch A LOT less than other kids. They do live in our culture and so aren't completely exempt from gender norms, but it is amazing what you see on the playground - all the kids playing together in very similar ways. Biological differences do not manifest themselves in the ways we think they do (trucks on the one hand and tutus on the other is a great example of our nonsensical gender norming). Much of this stuff is learned though media.

That said. I still think you should just smile and say, "sometimes."

There is a group of girls playing tackle football?

Are the boys playing tackle football during recess at your child's school? They sure aren't at mine (MCPS). But not because of gender norms. Because tackling is one of the long list of things the children are not allowed to do during recess.

No, of course my boys don't go to MCPS.. They go to an all boys school where they are allowed to be boys. Yes, they play tackle fottball.

Really, no one should be playing tackle football. This isn't a gender thing. The brain research that is emerging is very scary. One concussion can cause eventual, long-term damage, and repeated concussions are devastating (personality changes!). We can't bubble-wrap our kids, but we can keep them out of activities likely to cause concussions!

No... It is only true for amulet men wearing helmets... Continue with the feminization of boys.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
If you don't have kids then obviously you have not experienced for yourself the simple fact that some boys are born being interested in typically boy things and acting in typically boy ways, and are not coerced into them as some (like you) would argue. I was shocked that my boys showed ME who they were and what they were interested in, not the other way around. You just don't know that until you see it for yourself. I couldn't care less about cement trucks, for example, and would never in a million years point them out as something of interest as we were walking around the block or driving around -- and yet both my boys found such things incredibly interesting. THEY pointed them out TO ME. So if someone apologetically says, "They're all boy" maybe it's to deflect the blame you are placing at their feet. You really don't know, PP.

And if you don't have daughters then obviously you have not experienced for yourself that some girls do this too. Including cement trucks. You really don't know, PP.

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:
I have boys and I will be the first to say my 2 are 'all boy'. They are athletic, rough and tumble, lots of physical energy, and hear selectively. These are the most universally accepted traits of males.

I'm clearly distinguishing them from some boys that have different demeanors that are not as universally characterized. More quiet, less physical energy, not into the outdoors. There is nothing wrong with these other boys, they just don't fit the stereotypical mold.

And that's just it, it's a widely accepted stereotype so when someone says "all boy" you know what they are talking about.

No need to get so defensive.

And I'm not getting defensive. I don't have children. But every.single.woman who has used the "my son is all boy!" excuse used it justify obnoxious, borderline violent and aggressive behavior. I disagree with the notion that having a temper and a lack of self control as an essential "boy" characteristic.

It's like an abused wife whose husband punched her in the face saying, "my husband is all man!"

If you don't have kids then obviously you have not experienced for yourself the simple fact that some boys are born being interested in typically boy things and acting in typically boy ways, and are not coerced into them as some (like you) would argue. I was shocked that my boys showed ME who they were and what they were interested in, not the other way around. You just don't know that until you see it for yourself. I couldn't care less about cement trucks, for example, and would never in a million years point them out as something of interest as we were walking around the block or driving around -- and yet both my boys found such things incredibly interesting. THEY pointed them out TO ME. So if someone apologetically says, "They're all boy" maybe it's to deflect the blame you are placing at their feet. You really don't know, PP.

Yeah, nice try. I don't have children, but I have been around a lot of young children. I love this "you don't have any kids, therefore, you know nothing, but my singular parental experience IS the defining anecdotal experience" argument.

Gender norms are promoted in subtle ways. It isn't necessarily a person pointing out "hey, that's a boy thing to like, you should like it."

I could counter your argument with "the fact that you have never had daughters, then obviously you have not experienced for yourself the simple fact that some girls are born being interested in typically boy things and acting in typically boy ways." Do does that make them all boy, too?

You don't have to point out to me that some girls are born interested in typically boy things, because I was a girl just like that. But I can assure you that I did not "make" my boys into boys -- they were born that way.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I have boys and I will be the first to say my 2 are 'all boy'. They are athletic, rough and tumble, lots of physical energy, and hear selectively. These are the most universally accepted traits of males.

I'm clearly distinguishing them from some boys that have different demeanors that are not as universally characterized. More quiet, less physical energy, not into the outdoors. There is nothing wrong with these other boys, they just don't fit the stereotypical mold.

And that's just it, it's a widely accepted stereotype so when someone says "all boy" you know what they are talking about.

No need to get so defensive.

And I'm not getting defensive. I don't have children. But every.single.woman who has used the "my son is all boy!" excuse used it justify obnoxious, borderline violent and aggressive behavior. I disagree with the notion that having a temper and a lack of self control as an essential "boy" characteristic.

It's like an abused wife whose husband punched her in the face saying, "my husband is all man!"

If you don't have kids then obviously you have not experienced for yourself the simple fact that some boys are born being interested in typically boy things and acting in typically boy ways, and are not coerced into them as some (like you) would argue. I was shocked that my boys showed ME who they were and what they were interested in, not the other way around. You just don't know that until you see it for yourself. I couldn't care less about cement trucks, for example, and would never in a million years point them out as something of interest as we were walking around the block or driving around -- and yet both my boys found such things incredibly interesting. THEY pointed them out TO ME. So if someone apologetically says, "They're all boy" maybe it's to deflect the blame you are placing at their feet. You really don't know, PP.

Yeah, nice try. I don't have children, but I have been around a lot of young children. I love this "you don't have any kids, therefore, you know nothing, but my singular parental experience IS the defining anecdotal experience" argument.

Gender norms are promoted in subtle ways. It isn't necessarily a person pointing out "hey, that's a boy thing to like, you should like it."

I could counter your argument with "the fact that you have never had daughters, then obviously you have not experienced for yourself the simple fact that some girls are born being interested in typically boy things and acting in typically boy ways." Do does that make them all boy, too?

No one is saying you made your boys into boys. What we are saying is that the "way they are" isn't because they are boys. You could have girls who are just like that. Being "all boy" just means having male sex parts. It doesn't mean all of this other personality stuff that occurs in males and females. Boys who aren't like your boys aren't less boy than yours, so to say that those personality traits make your boys "all boy" is ridiculous and absurd.



You don't have to point out to me that some girls are born interested in typically boy things, because I was a girl just like that. But I can assure you that I did not "make" my boys into boys -- they were born that way.

Anonymous wrote:
To the last 2 pp.'s: Okay, let's drop the stereotype and all boys and girls can be stereotyped as unisex. Let's dress them all in grey and give them all unisex bob cuts, let's name some boys Larla and some girls Johnny to keep it fair, and dress them alike, how about a shirt and kilt/skirt type outfit so there is no gender preference?

Seriously, no one is saying your quiet, book loving boy is not a boy and no one is saying your soccer champ Larla isn't athletic. Yes, there are intrinsically different things that make up a boy and a girl. To deny that is ludicrous. I was a nature loving, outdoorsy girl that loved running and climbing trees. But I am a female and even though I could hang with the boys, I know am intrinsically different from them. This is NOT a bad thing!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are the boys playing tackle football during recess at your child's school? They sure aren't at mine (MCPS). But not because of gender norms. Because tackling is one of the long list of things the children are not allowed to do during recess.

No, of course my boys don't go to MCPS.. They go to an all boys school where they are allowed to be boys. Yes, they play tackle fottball.

See, now I am confused. About half of the children in my child's class at my child's MCPS school are boys. They are boys before school, they are boys during school, they are boys after school, they know they are boys, everybody knows they are boys, there's no secret -- there they are, all day long, boys being boys. At what school are boys not allowed to be boys? Girls' schools?

No. They are told to sit down be quiet and act like a girl all day. Many studies show schools are girl oriented. Boys work better in groups and not in lecture/worksheet environments.

When they act like a boy the are told they are loud and rough and ill behaved or ADHD.

At MCPS boys are not allowed to be boys... When they are all boy... The 1/2 boys are fine.

Anonymous wrote:
If you don't have kids then obviously you have not experienced for yourself the simple fact that some boys are born being interested in typically boy things and acting in typically boy ways, and are not coerced into them as some (like you) would argue. I was shocked that my boys showed ME who they were and what they were interested in, not the other way around. You just don't know that until you see it for yourself. I couldn't care less about cement trucks, for example, and would never in a million years point them out as something of interest as we were walking around the block or driving around -- and yet both my boys found such things incredibly interesting. THEY pointed them out TO ME. So if someone apologetically says, "They're all boy" maybe it's to deflect the blame you are placing at their feet. You really don't know, PP.