Anonymous
Post 01/08/2014 16:42     Subject: Religious families-Do your children easily love God?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
LOL! I am 15:14 AGAIN. I just realized, and found it funny that for a person who says they do not believe in God, you sure have a lot to say about parenting and faith education of those of us who do.

HAHAHA


Yeah, kind of ironic, that.

I think there are a few non-believers participating in this conversation, and just because we don't believe doesn't mean that we haven't experienced a lot of what's being discussed.

Many of those who are now non-believers grew up in homes with very religious parents, so many can comment on the effect of these parental practices first hand.

Who would you rather hear from - the person who followed right in their parents' footsteps and never questioned, or the person who can say, "This is what my parents did, and this is how I felt about it and was part of my journey to a different belief (or atheism)"?


Maybe the HAHAHA poster meant to give non-believers another invitation to get lost.

I wasn't telling anyone to get lost. It was just funny to me that non-believers are trying to tell believers how to teach their kids about faith. That is not to say that some folks may not provide some good suggestions, nuggets. But, to me, most of it came off as a somewhat smarmy, and not so subtle attack on faith. A lot of it comes off as I'm smarter than you and I can prove it, I'm just not going to come off and say that right off the bat. I'm going to take the long way around to prove it.
Anonymous
Post 01/08/2014 16:38     Subject: Religious families-Do your children easily love God?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:The way I see it, is if you attributed the "wants" or "needs" or otherwise characteristics and personality of God to a human being, that person would have every major personality disorder in the book. I'm not just talking about the Christian version of god, but all of them would be classified as severely mentally ill, by the same exact characteristics - if they were characteristics of your neighbor, Mortal Homo Sapien Joe.

Guess that shows you have no idea about God.


I do, yes. I have a couple of degrees studying religion, and grew up in a religious home. Just because you don't like what people have to say, doesn't mean there's at least a little bit of truth to it.

ok studying religion and having a relationship is not the same thing... i could get a degree all about you, but if I don't know you personally, I don't know jack about you...just what people tell me about you. And just because your parents were "religious" in no way means they knew what they were talking about. It's not about your parents' relationship, its about you and God. Having said that you, you are correct in your last sentence.
Anonymous
Post 01/08/2014 16:36     Subject: Religious families-Do your children easily love God?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:The way I see it, is if you attributed the "wants" or "needs" or otherwise characteristics and personality of God to a human being, that person would have every major personality disorder in the book. I'm not just talking about the Christian version of god, but all of them would be classified as severely mentally ill, by the same exact characteristics - if they were characteristics of your neighbor, Mortal Homo Sapien Joe.

Guess that shows you have no idea about God.


I do, yes. I have a couple of degrees studying religion, and grew up in a religious home. Just because you don't like what people have to say, doesn't mean there's at least a little bit of truth to it.


Exactly -- keep that in mind when humanists comment on indoctrination
Anonymous
Post 01/08/2014 16:35     Subject: Religious families-Do your children easily love God?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:"I believe in building a relationship with my Creator. That is what my kids will have to do as well."


There's the indoctrination part: I "believe" and my kids will "have to."

Are you being a smart ass? I am genuinely asking this question. "Have to do" as in I cannot build a relationship for them, not as in 'that is what I required of them'. And if you come back with some smart ass response about the improper usage of "have to"...


With the upfront and repeated "smartass" references, you're not making it easy for me to respond in a measured way, but I'll try. Yes, I thought of it in terms of "what I require of them" -- not a far-out interpretation, I don't think. Even with your other choice, it still has the ring of a mandate or an extremely limited choice, as in -- "they should work hard at it -- just as I have done."

And this is all about something you believe -- it's not like the benefits of vegetables over velveeta, for which there is evidence.

HUH???? Same difference if a friend says, one day I want to be married and I say "well, if you get married, that is a relationship you will have to work at it, you don't just get married and then sit back and do nothing, it takes work to develop that relationship"
No where did i say that i am requiring them to do anything. I'm saying that's what the work you need to put in to get what you want.
And I was being sincere in questioning if you were being a smartass, just being real. The idea that you were gleaning that I am mandating something...well i ASSUMED that most folk would understand that was not what I was going for. As for whether or not you are measured in your response, that's on you, your choice, I do not care. By the way, the velveeta -- baby that was totally smartass...no worries tho
Anonymous
Post 01/08/2014 16:34     Subject: Religious families-Do your children easily love God?
Anonymous wrote:
LOL! I am 15:14 AGAIN. I just realized, and found it funny that for a person who says they do not believe in God, you sure have a lot to say about parenting and faith education of those of us who do.

HAHAHA


Yeah, kind of ironic, that.

I think there are a few non-believers participating in this conversation, and just because we don't believe doesn't mean that we haven't experienced a lot of what's being discussed.

Many of those who are now non-believers grew up in homes with very religious parents, so many can comment on the effect of these parental practices first hand.

Who would you rather hear from - the person who followed right in their parents' footsteps and never questioned, or the person who can say, "This is what my parents did, and this is how I felt about it and was part of my journey to a different belief (or atheism)"?


Maybe the HAHAHA poster meant to give non-believers another invitation to get lost.
Anonymous
Post 01/08/2014 16:27     Subject: Religious families-Do your children easily love God?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:The way I see it, is if you attributed the "wants" or "needs" or otherwise characteristics and personality of God to a human being, that person would have every major personality disorder in the book. I'm not just talking about the Christian version of god, but all of them would be classified as severely mentally ill, by the same exact characteristics - if they were characteristics of your neighbor, Mortal Homo Sapien Joe.

Guess that shows you have no idea about God.


I do, yes. I have a couple of degrees studying religion, and grew up in a religious home. Just because you don't like what people have to say, doesn't mean there's at least a little bit of truth to it.
Anonymous
Post 01/08/2014 16:26     Subject: Religious families-Do your children easily love God?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:"I believe in building a relationship with my Creator. That is what my kids will have to do as well."


There's the indoctrination part: I "believe" and my kids will "have to."

Are you being a smart ass? I am genuinely asking this question. "Have to do" as in I cannot build a relationship for them, not as in 'that is what I required of them'. And if you come back with some smart ass response about the improper usage of "have to"...


With the upfront and repeated "smartass" references, you're not making it easy for me to respond in a measured way, but I'll try. Yes, I thought of it in terms of "what I require of them" -- not a far-out interpretation, I don't think. Even with your other choice, it still has the ring of a mandate or an extremely limited choice, as in -- "they should work hard at it -- just as I have done."

And this is all about something you believe -- it's not like the benefits of vegetables over velveeta, for which there is evidence.
Anonymous
Post 01/08/2014 16:25     Subject: Religious families-Do your children easily love God?
LOL! I am 15:14 AGAIN. I just realized, and found it funny that for a person who says they do not believe in God, you sure have a lot to say about parenting and faith education of those of us who do.

HAHAHA


Yeah, kind of ironic, that.

I think there are a few non-believers participating in this conversation, and just because we don't believe doesn't mean that we haven't experienced a lot of what's being discussed.

Many of those who are now non-believers grew up in homes with very religious parents, so many can comment on the effect of these parental practices first hand.

Who would you rather hear from - the person who followed right in their parents' footsteps and never questioned, or the person who can say, "This is what my parents did, and this is how I felt about it and was part of my journey to a different belief (or atheism)"?
Anonymous
Post 01/08/2014 16:14     Subject: Religious families-Do your children easily love God?
Anonymous wrote:
And what message is that? Is that a general commentary, because if it is I think all parents, religious or not, need to do this gut-check on a regular basis. OR are you saying that looking at the message you are sending as a way of saying ' you think you are not indoctrinating, but that is exactly what you are doing" -- which did you mean?


More the former than the latter, but a little bit of (c), all of the above.

I agree completely on the gut-check.

As far as the indoctrination, I'd actually say take a step back. Is the message that your child is hearing about religion and faith one that says, "My path works for me, and I'd love it if you ended up on the same path, but what's most important to me is that you find the path that works for you, and I'll support you in finding that path."?

If your child is hearing the message that "You must chose my path." or if you are structuring your child's environment so that your child doesn't learn that another path is even an option, then I'd say you need to think about what you're doing and why.

Our message is this: God is real, this is our faith, this is what we do.
No, I do not tell a little kid -- pick your own path when you grow up. If that came up, then yea, it's a personal relationship and you will have to make that decision on your own one day.
I would never tell her that we would disown her if she decided she did not believe in God. Sorta not the Christian thing to do that.
We discuss that other people have different beliefs and that we have to respect them and we do learn about them(i'm the poster whose kid got the jewish encyclopedia from the library).
But, yes -- I'm the boss and you have to go to Church when we go, just like you have to go to school. Surprise, surprise, she likes it.
Anonymous
Post 01/08/2014 16:10     Subject: Re:Religious families-Do your children easily love God?
Anonymous wrote:From M-W:

in·doc·tri·nate transitive verb \in-?däk-tr?-?n?t\
: to teach (someone) to fully accept the ideas, opinions, and beliefs of a particular group and to not consider other ideas, opinions, and beliefs

Well we also talk about other religions and belief systems so we are 100% for certain NOT indoctrinating. Phew!


It depends how you talk about them. DO you ask your kids to consider other ideas, etc, while explaining what they are, or do you mention the other beliefs (hard to avoid in our pluralistic society) and tell your kids that this is not what our family believes?

In political indoctrination, people are often taught things about other political systems in the context of them being inferior or wrong or off-limits.

Christians used to be taught that Jews were Christ Killers. I would not put this in the category of considering other beliefs. This would be a method of indoctrination. As a Catholic, I was taught in Sunday School that it was a sin to go into a protestant church. My parents didn't enforce it though, and when I went into a protestant church I couldn't see how it would be sinful. Boring, maybe, but not sinful.
Anonymous
Post 01/08/2014 16:07     Subject: Religious families-Do your children easily love God?
And what message is that? Is that a general commentary, because if it is I think all parents, religious or not, need to do this gut-check on a regular basis. OR are you saying that looking at the message you are sending as a way of saying ' you think you are not indoctrinating, but that is exactly what you are doing" -- which did you mean?


More the former than the latter, but a little bit of (c), all of the above.

I agree completely on the gut-check.

As far as the indoctrination, I'd actually say take a step back. Is the message that your child is hearing about religion and faith one that says, "My path works for me, and I'd love it if you ended up on the same path, but what's most important to me is that you find the path that works for you, and I'll support you in finding that path."?

If your child is hearing the message that "You must chose my path." or if you are structuring your child's environment so that your child doesn't learn that another path is even an option, then I'd say you need to think about what you're doing and why.
Anonymous
Post 01/08/2014 16:06     Subject: Religious families-Do your children easily love God?
Anonymous wrote:The way I see it, is if you attributed the "wants" or "needs" or otherwise characteristics and personality of God to a human being, that person would have every major personality disorder in the book. I'm not just talking about the Christian version of god, but all of them would be classified as severely mentally ill, by the same exact characteristics - if they were characteristics of your neighbor, Mortal Homo Sapien Joe.

Guess that shows you have no idea about God.
Anonymous
Post 01/08/2014 16:05     Subject: Religious families-Do your children easily love God?
The way I see it, is if you attributed the "wants" or "needs" or otherwise characteristics and personality of God to a human being, that person would have every major personality disorder in the book. I'm not just talking about the Christian version of god, but all of them would be classified as severely mentally ill, by the same exact characteristics - if they were characteristics of your neighbor, Mortal Homo Sapien Joe.
Anonymous
Post 01/08/2014 16:05     Subject: Religious families-Do your children easily love God?
Anonymous wrote:
As I stated earlier, the word "indoctrination" may be used accurately as you interpret the rearing of children by these particular posters, but does not support the "discussion" you had described upthread. There is no good way to use it if you expect others to engage you on a mutually respectful level.

The word does not sting me. I am not indoctrinating my children. I am raising them in a family that holds faith in high regards. Let's imagine we do keep faith out of our parenting completely. What you're saying is that if my kids become adults of deep faith then that's fine, and if they become adults with no faith then fine. But if we (my spouse and I) conduct our lives as adults guided by faith and our dependent children notice this and ask questions and we answer to the best of our abilities with love and respect for others we are still doing them a disservice?

I don't understand being asked as a parent to step back and raise them without something we see as important on the off chance that something will stick that wasn't completely organic to them. We also emphasize a healthy diet and exercise -- is that bad? Why can't my kids learn on their own whether they want to eat less produce and more Velveeta by the bowl.

It seems to me you're coming from a place where religion is inherently bad or dangerous and children must be protected from it until they are strong enough to repel it on their own.

I may be off-base, but harping on your justification for the word "indoctrination" just seems odd to me.


At no point have I said that you (or anyone) should remove faith from parenting or your lives, or that you shouldn't discuss it with your children, have them participate in it, etc.

I objected to the way a few parents described how they are handling it - and I described that as creepy and indoctrination. How I describe the way those particular parents are handling it (and I wasn't the only one to react to it), is unlikely to change how those parents do it. But if by pointing out that those examples are going to extremes, I might cause other parents to look at those practices in a new light, then I'd call that a good thing.

But to go with your diet and exercise example, if your child goes through a phase where they refuse to eat vegetables, do you force them in their mouth, or make them sit at the table with the vegetables on the plate and make it a battle of wills, or do you figure out another way to get them to eat a balanced diet?

Going back to the example someone else used with the violin, if you loved the violin and it enriched your life, but your kids hated you for making you take violin lessons, would you keep forcing it, or would you maybe take a step back and see what it is about the violin that enriches your life, and try to find something your children love that would achieve the same thing?

If faith is important to you and central to your family, that's wonderful. The question is whether you are trying to force it onto your kids, as it's clear some of the prior posters are, or are you encouraging their growth. Are you trying to force them onto a path of your choice, or are you supporting them in finding their own way? And if they chose a path that is different from the one that works for you, are you communicating a message that you will support them in their choice, or are you communicating a message that if they chose differently from you, they risk sacrificing their relationship with you?

LOL! I am 15:14 AGAIN. I just realized, and found it funny that for a person who says they do not believe in God, you sure have a lot to say about parenting and faith education of those of us who do.

HAHAHA
Anonymous
Post 01/08/2014 16:02     Subject: Religious families-Do your children easily love God?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:The issue is not being made or forced to believe in God, by God, but of God making it easy or natural to believe in him.

Instead, it seems like it's natural to some, but very difficult or impossible for others. in Some cases, parents trying very hard, can't make it happen.

THis is free will, I suppose -- but it seems like free will to go to hell -- which doesn't seem like a very good option for a loving God to provide.

15:14 here again. You have a good point. But it all depends on your idea of Hell. I don't think Hell is a physical place, I think it is existing outside of the presence of God. Not the traditional Christian belief, and I am ok with that. As for free will, God avails himself to us, but sometimes our misperceptions of God is what blocks us from having that authentic relationship. We take other people's misinterpretation of God's word and try to relate to that and it has us all messed up and wondering why we don't see Him in our lives. I say you have to continually seek Him and he will make Himself known to you.


Again, it seems like God is making it hard --"you have to continually seek him" -- why? and how do you know that? It seems quite easy for some people to know that God is with them. It seems personality-based more than anything else.


The way I see it is that we don't have to continually seek Him but by doing so gives us a deeper understanding and a deeper peace. God is God and is going to go on with or without me trying to connect to Him, but it is what He wants and I benefit from the relationship.

exactly