Anonymous wrote:

The bigger concern, for parents of gifted children, is that they will grow into unsuccessful and dysfunctional adults because they will be stymied from a young age by a system and culture that prevents them from advocating for themselves ("excellent students are never troublemakers" "only boring people get bored" "truly smart kids can find ways to amuse themselves in class") and jumps on their parents ("you're just bragging!" "You're over-invested in your kids performance!" ) for raising the issues. How is a smart child supposed to interpret these messages? You have to go to X school and you have to be in Y grade, but if you are different from the rest of the kids in class you need to keep that to yourself and keep yourself occupied without drawing any attention to yourself lest the teacher become annoyed or the other kids notice and pick on you. That is a lot for a kid to deal with!

God forbid the adults in this situation (parents, teachers) intervene to make sure that a child who has mastered the material is still given the opportunity to learn something. I can't believe the posters who disparage the concept of providing additional material to children who learn quickly as "entertaining" kids. I would call it "teaching" or "doing their jobs." And if a child requires so much differentiation that a teacher can't provide it (which is reasonable in some cases--most would agree that we shouldn't expect teachers to be able to provide sufficient differentiation to children far on the other end of the spectrum), he or she may say that school is "boring." Parents and teachers should be able to figure out if a kid says school is boring because they don't like doing something necessary but tedious (in which case, suck it up kid, that's life), or if its because they aren't being challenged, and other parents should MTOB and not take it as a personal insult.

http://www.stephanietolan.com/is_it_a_cheetah.htm

Way to attack a straw man, PP!

Where did anyone on this thread say that gifted children should "keep their giftedness to themselves"? Or that the adults in their lives should "never" intervene to give them the opportunity to go above and beyond? Or that we all "disparage" providing additional material to gifted kids? Or that we are annoyed by *all* parents of *all* gifted kids? Nobody here said any of these things. You are simply making these things up, putting words into our mouths, and this doesn't reflect well on you.

You seem unable to grasp the root cause of our frustration. That, or you don't want to understand because it doesn't paint a flattering picture of you. Another PP said you might have comprehension issues and spelled it out carefully for you. Let me try.
1. We don't hate giftedness, all gifted kids and all of their parents. Stop already. We'd be hating ourselves, because I'm willing to bet that most people here are the parents of highly (at least) gifted kids.
2. We are frustrated with certain parents of gifted kids and their self-serving but ultimately damaging attitudes. This, a million times over. What are these self-serving attitudes? Where do I start. A kid who hasn't started school is not a future misunderstood genius. You just can't bring yourself to admit that a little boredom is part of life, and learning to deal with it is an essential skill. You need to stop with the black-and-white picture of total joy vs. total boredom and start seeing that a broad continuum exists, which is obvious to those of us with older gifted kids, a continuum that involves differentiation and magnet programs.
3. None of us opposes giving additional materials to gifted kids. Stop already. In fact, WTF, because you can't document that anyone said this in the past 8-9 pages. Several of us, myself included, have openly urged parents to work cooperatively with teachers to find ways to challenge gifted kids. This means, very obviously, providing the extra materials that you claim we don't support.

Like PP, I also give you props for claiming both superiority and victimhood.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think so many parents are doing their children a great disservice with this insistence on "my child is so gifted and isn't challenged enough."

I know some truly gifted adults, and some of them haven't been very successful at holding down a job. The reason is that no job is "challenging" enough and their belief in their own intellectual superiority has been a huge roadblock in making progress in their lives and being a functional adult in the world with all of the nongifted people.

It's great if your kid is reading early and doing well in school. But I see all of these parents so convinced their children are so gifted and so far ahead of all of the other kids that I fear those children will grow into some really ego-centric, arrogant and possibly dysfunctional adults.

The bigger concern, for parents of gifted children, is that they will grow into unsuccessful and dysfunctional adults because they will be stymied from a young age by a system and culture that prevents them from advocating for themselves ("excellent students are never troublemakers" "only boring people get bored" "truly smart kids can find ways to amuse themselves in class") and jumps on their parents ("you're just bragging!" "You're over-invested in your kids performance!" ) for raising the issues. How is a smart child supposed to interpret these messages? You have to go to X school and you have to be in Y grade, but if you are different from the rest of the kids in class you need to keep that to yourself and keep yourself occupied without drawing any attention to yourself lest the teacher become annoyed or the other kids notice and pick on you. That is a lot for a kid to deal with!

God forbid the adults in this situation (parents, teachers) intervene to make sure that a child who has mastered the material is still given the opportunity to learn something. I can't believe the posters who disparage the concept of providing additional material to children who learn quickly as "entertaining" kids. I would call it "teaching" or "doing their jobs." And if a child requires so much differentiation that a teacher can't provide it (which is reasonable in some cases--most would agree that we shouldn't expect teachers to be able to provide sufficient differentiation to children far on the other end of the spectrum), he or she may say that school is "boring." Parents and teachers should be able to figure out if a kid says school is boring because they don't like doing something necessary but tedious (in which case, suck it up kid, that's life), or if its because they aren't being challenged, and other parents should MTOB and not take it as a personal insult.

http://www.stephanietolan.com/is_it_a_cheetah.htm

This is hilarious - gifted children (like cheetahs) are considered endangered? Not on DCUM they aren't. I feel like every child mentioned on DCUM is gifted!

Anonymous wrote:I think so many parents are doing their children a great disservice with this insistence on "my child is so gifted and isn't challenged enough."

I know some truly gifted adults, and some of them haven't been very successful at holding down a job. The reason is that no job is "challenging" enough and their belief in their own intellectual superiority has been a huge roadblock in making progress in their lives and being a functional adult in the world with all of the nongifted people.

It's great if your kid is reading early and doing well in school. But I see all of these parents so convinced their children are so gifted and so far ahead of all of the other kids that I fear those children will grow into some really ego-centric, arrogant and possibly dysfunctional adults.

The bigger concern, for parents of gifted children, is that they will grow into unsuccessful and dysfunctional adults because they will be stymied from a young age by a system and culture that prevents them from advocating for themselves ("excellent students are never troublemakers" "only boring people get bored" "truly smart kids can find ways to amuse themselves in class") and jumps on their parents ("you're just bragging!" "You're over-invested in your kids performance!" ) for raising the issues. How is a smart child supposed to interpret these messages? You have to go to X school and you have to be in Y grade, but if you are different from the rest of the kids in class you need to keep that to yourself and keep yourself occupied without drawing any attention to yourself lest the teacher become annoyed or the other kids notice and pick on you. That is a lot for a kid to deal with!

God forbid the adults in this situation (parents, teachers) intervene to make sure that a child who has mastered the material is still given the opportunity to learn something. I can't believe the posters who disparage the concept of providing additional material to children who learn quickly as "entertaining" kids. I would call it "teaching" or "doing their jobs." And if a child requires so much differentiation that a teacher can't provide it (which is reasonable in some cases--most would agree that we shouldn't expect teachers to be able to provide sufficient differentiation to children far on the other end of the spectrum), he or she may say that school is "boring." Parents and teachers should be able to figure out if a kid says school is boring because they don't like doing something necessary but tedious (in which case, suck it up kid, that's life), or if its because they aren't being challenged, and other parents should MTOB and not take it as a personal insult.

http://www.stephanietolan.com/is_it_a_cheetah.htm

12:43/13:57 poster, I agree with you -I'm 13:11. I think that in recent decades parents of every stripe have become over-invested in their kids, whether it's academic success or on the soccer field. The martyr-mom-of-a-gifted-kid is one variant on this. It's not even necessary for the kid to be truly gifted at reading, math or sports, because some parents will see brilliance or athletic prowess in their child despite all evidence to the contrary. I think we as a society need to step back, tamp down our own egos, and think about what's really necessary to nurture productive, happy adults.

This thread is VINTAGE DCUM, and I love it. How great is this: "I don't care about your real-life experiences with gifted kids in schools because my pre-schooler is more gifted than your kids." It's simply perfect. It brings together so many strands, so much of what parenting in the DMV area is all about.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: But I see all of these parents so convinced their children are so gifted and so far ahead of all of the other kids that I fear those children will grow into some really ego-centric, arrogant and possibly dysfunctional adults.

Really? I don't see that where I live. Especially because, once the children get to school, it immediately becomes evident that there is at least a small group of children doing the same things. I was a little worried when I sent child #1 to kindergarten already reading -- not that she would be bored, but that she would spend a year learning that c-a-t spells cat, which she already knew. As it turned out, though, there were 4 or 5 early readers in her kindergarten class.

Plus, also, the value of persistence and the disadvantages of believing in one's own intellectual superiority have no bearing on whether or not the idea that children -- including gifted children -- can be bored in school is ridiculous.

And nobody (at least on this thread) has reported that what they found boring was rote memorization. Boring is having to go over and over things you have already thoroughly learned, with no alternative for doing anything else. I really don't see how anybody could deny that this is so.

I'm going to try this one more time, because, as gifted as your kids are, I think you have some comprehension issues. All kids can get bored in class, gifted, nongifted. I didn't say that smart kids don't get bored. My point is that being bored is also part of the growing up process. Even smart kids need to learn to deal with boredom. The problem is parents who insist their kids are so gifted that they are not being challenged every minute of class and shouldn't have to ever deal with boredom and should be able to do other things because they're that gifted. It's the "how dare a teacher expect my brilliant child to sit still for a few minutes and wait patiently for the teacher to explain a math problem that she (the child) already understands!"

All kids -- gifted and nongifted -- get bored in school at different times for different reasons. Sure, if they're completely bored every minute of every day in school, then maybe they need to be moved to a different level or advance a grade. But for most kids, this is not the case. And my guess is that it is not the case for most of the people here arguing how gifted and unchallenged their kid is. It's more likely there are lulls in the day. And sometimes the kid already knows something being taught. But there is value in that kid learning to deal with boredom, learning patience and not seeing herself/himself as so far above everyone else that she/he should never have to deal with boredom, that she/he should be allowed to break the rules, to do other things, in the name of not letting her/his huge intellect go unchallenged for even a short time in the day.

It's good for kids to be challenged in other ways than just intellectually. Dealing with moments of boredom does challenge them to learn patience. And I simply do not believe that there are as many brilliant kids suffering from lack of challenge as many parents would have us believe.

meant they're brilliant, not their brilliant.

Anonymous wrote:There's research suggesting that telling your child he or she is brighter than others can have several possible negative effects, ranging from the child thinking s/he can coast and doesn't have to put in a best effort, to instilling a fear of failure.

I also agree with the concern about creating entitled brats. That said, I support gifted and magnet programs, and I don't know how you separate classrooms without the kids figuring out what's going on. They do all know who's in advanced classes, and it's also demoralizing for the kids in "regular" classes.

We create a different set of problems if we take the view that bright kids must be entertained every minute of the day. This does the opposite of encouraging creativity and exploration because it's so very passive.

12:43 poster here. I think that there's a balance that can be struck. Most school systems don't separate kids for the entire school day, just for things like reading and math, and then they're put into groups. Personally, I think that model probably works best. But I'm sure there are plenty of parents who will insist their kid is so gifted that they can never be mixed with *the others*.

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that kids realize there are different levels and that there are other kids who might be smarter and learn faster. (just like kids who play sports realize that there are other kids who are better at certain things.) But I do think a lot of parents are delusional and really overplay how *gifted* their kid is. Or they just get so hung up on it, that they can't see that even if their kid is really smart, it doesn't mean the kid can't learn from other kids who may not be as advanced in math or vocabulary but bring other perspective. When parents teach their kids that they're so special and so much more brilliant and advanced that they don't have to participate in what the rest of the class is doing, I think it mistakenly causes the kid to think he/she can't learn from his/her "lesser" peers.

but I suspect the parents who are arguing their kids are so bored because their brilliant already have their kids in the gifted and talented program. So their arrogance goes even beyond that -- their kids, apparently, are even too gifted to be challenged in the gifted and talented classes!

The lady who is worried about her child being disappointed with kindergarten is just ridiculous. The only reason the kid would be disappointed is if the parent has already convinced a child that young that she is so much better than her peers. Very little of kindergarten is sitting still for stretches of time and listen to a teacher lecture. Most of it is interactive learning. If her child gets "bored" in kindergarten, then I would blame it on issues with socialization and not because she is not being challenged, because being in groups, being around so many other kids and interacting with them shouldn't be boring, no matter how smart the kid is.

Anonymous wrote:

And nobody (at least on this thread) has reported that what they found boring was rote memorization. Boring is having to go over and over things you have already thoroughly learned, with no alternative for doing anything else. I really don't see how anybody could deny that this is so.

I think some of us have given up responding on this point, at least I've given up, because based on our own experiences, we haven't seen a classroom where there is never, ever an opportunity to work ahead of the class, read novels in class, doodle, or even daydream. And to the extent there is some boredom for every kid in every classroom, we see this as fairly normal and even, within limits of course, having the potential to build better, more resilient adults. Of course there is some variation by teacher. But the image of classrooms that stifle brilliant kids seems like a straw man to those of us with some experience. Yet, when we mention our personal experiences, there have been several posts saying, well, your kids aren't as smart as mine. Some here have tried to make the previous points, all the while urging you guys to work with the teacher, but it seems to fall on deaf ears.

There's research suggesting that telling your child he or she is brighter than others can have several possible negative effects, ranging from the child thinking s/he can coast and doesn't have to put in a best effort, to instilling a fear of failure.

I also agree with the concern about creating entitled brats. That said, I support gifted and magnet programs, and I don't know how you separate classrooms without the kids figuring out what's going on. They do all know who's in advanced classes, and it's also demoralizing for the kids in "regular" classes.

We create a different set of problems if we take the view that bright kids must be entertained every minute of the day. This does the opposite of encouraging creativity and exploration because it's so very passive.

Anonymous wrote: But I see all of these parents so convinced their children are so gifted and so far ahead of all of the other kids that I fear those children will grow into some really ego-centric, arrogant and possibly dysfunctional adults.

Really? I don't see that where I live. Especially because, once the children get to school, it immediately becomes evident that there is at least a small group of children doing the same things. I was a little worried when I sent child #1 to kindergarten already reading -- not that she would be bored, but that she would spend a year learning that c-a-t spells cat, which she already knew. As it turned out, though, there were 4 or 5 early readers in her kindergarten class.

Plus, also, the value of persistence and the disadvantages of believing in one's own intellectual superiority have no bearing on whether or not the idea that children -- including gifted children -- can be bored in school is ridiculous.

And nobody (at least on this thread) has reported that what they found boring was rote memorization. Boring is having to go over and over things you have already thoroughly learned, with no alternative for doing anything else. I really don't see how anybody could deny that this is so.

Anonymous wrote:I think so many parents are doing their children a great disservice with this insistence on "my child is so gifted and isn't challenged enough."

I know some truly gifted adults, and some of them haven't been very successful at holding down a job. The reason is that no job is "challenging" enough and their belief in their own intellectual superiority has been a huge roadblock in making progress in their lives and being a functional adult in the world with all of the nongifted people.

Honestly, the people I know who made it through medical school, law school, or ph.d. programs and went on to successful careers aren't even necessarily the smartest people. They are the ones with the most endurance. A huge part of medical school in the beginning is actually rote memorization. It serves as the foundation for all of the other stuff. The same is true with law school. And in all of those endeavors, there are times when it is tedious and repetitive. There are hoops to jump through. Any scientific researcher knows that truly groundbreaking research always comes from a foundation of really repetitive and tedious examination and experimentation.

My point is not that brilliant people can't succeed, but that I've seen brilliant people who are entirely too convinced of their brilliance fail in adult life because they were raised believe they were special, gifted, so far ahead of the other kids, that they didn't have to follow the normal rules or do what everyone else was doing.

It's great if your kid is reading early and doing well in school. But I see all of these parents so convinced their children are so gifted and so far ahead of all of the other kids that I fear those children will grow into some really ego-centric, arrogant and possibly dysfunctional adults.

I completely agree. The other thing is - when and if these kids don't become HUGE successes - how disappointed will they be? I wish parents wouldn't put such huge expectations on their children (I speak from the experience of being that child).

Anonymous wrote:Early reader does not necessarily equate to gifted child. Early mastery of math facts does not necessarily equate to gifted child. They are mechanics and don't require higher level cognitive thinking. Just as late reader or late mastery of math facts does not necessarily equate to ID or non-gifted child.

Early reading can allow a child to be exposed to more and varied language and critical thinking. However, audio books can be used to similar effect if a child is a late reader.

Amen. My child who will be entering K in the fall does not read. Am I worried? No.

Well put, 12:43.

I think so many parents are doing their children a great disservice with this insistence on "my child is so gifted and isn't challenged enough."

I know some truly gifted adults, and some of them haven't been very successful at holding down a job. The reason is that no job is "challenging" enough and their belief in their own intellectual superiority has been a huge roadblock in making progress in their lives and being a functional adult in the world with all of the nongifted people.

Honestly, the people I know who made it through medical school, law school, or ph.d. programs and went on to successful careers aren't even necessarily the smartest people. They are the ones with the most endurance. A huge part of medical school in the beginning is actually rote memorization. It serves as the foundation for all of the other stuff. The same is true with law school. And in all of those endeavors, there are times when it is tedious and repetitive. There are hoops to jump through. Any scientific researcher knows that truly groundbreaking research always comes from a foundation of really repetitive and tedious examination and experimentation.

My point is not that brilliant people can't succeed, but that I've seen brilliant people who are entirely too convinced of their brilliance fail in adult life because they were raised believe they were special, gifted, so far ahead of the other kids, that they didn't have to follow the normal rules or do what everyone else was doing.

It's great if your kid is reading early and doing well in school. But I see all of these parents so convinced their children are so gifted and so far ahead of all of the other kids that I fear those children will grow into some really ego-centric, arrogant and possibly dysfunctional adults.