Anonymous
Post 04/21/2012 09:14     Subject: Re:s/o - Aborting because a child is "disabled"
Anonymous wrote:
What is all this focus on "judging" in today's society? Everything is so relativistic. Guess what, people judge, and they judge all the time. You ran a red light? We judge in society that you did so, and that is wrong. You didn't hold a door for someone who was just walking behind you and it slammed in their face? We judge: "You were rude." Yet in this one issue, everyone goes around repeating hook line and sinker the PP/NARAL line, "Don't judge, don't judge, don't judge." Boy, they really sent a lot of folks down the river on this one.


Hey, judge all you want - no skin off my nose. Your opinion of me is completely irrelevant. Hysterical screeds like the OP's ("How could you DO such a thing") and diatribes from the holy-roller set don't make me second-guess myself. But when you switch from judging my choice to actively trying to strip the ability to make that choice from me - that's where I start to get cranky.


Actually, there are many potential choices that are restricted by various laws. Judges, judgments, opinions, etc limit our choices all the time. We don't get to do whatever we want in this ole world. Sorry.
Anonymous
Post 04/21/2012 09:11     Subject: Re:s/o - Aborting because a child is "disabled"
Anonymous wrote:
What is all this focus on "judging" in today's society? Everything is so relativistic. Guess what, people judge, and they judge all the time. You ran a red light? We judge in society that you did so, and that is wrong. You didn't hold a door for someone who was just walking behind you and it slammed in their face? We judge: "You were rude." Yet in this one issue, everyone goes around repeating hook line and sinker the PP/NARAL line, "Don't judge, don't judge, don't judge." Boy, they really sent a lot of folks down the river on this one.


Hey, judge all you want - no skin off my nose. Your opinion of me is completely irrelevant. Hysterical screeds like the OP's ("How could you DO such a thing") and diatribes from the holy-roller set don't make me second-guess myself. But when you switch from judging my choice to actively trying to strip the ability to make that choice from me - that's where I start to get cranky.


the choice to . . . what?
Anonymous
Post 04/21/2012 08:40     Subject: Re:s/o - Aborting because a child is "disabled"
What is all this focus on "judging" in today's society? Everything is so relativistic. Guess what, people judge, and they judge all the time. You ran a red light? We judge in society that you did so, and that is wrong. You didn't hold a door for someone who was just walking behind you and it slammed in their face? We judge: "You were rude." Yet in this one issue, everyone goes around repeating hook line and sinker the PP/NARAL line, "Don't judge, don't judge, don't judge." Boy, they really sent a lot of folks down the river on this one.


Hey, judge all you want - no skin off my nose. Your opinion of me is completely irrelevant. Hysterical screeds like the OP's ("How could you DO such a thing") and diatribes from the holy-roller set don't make me second-guess myself. But when you switch from judging my choice to actively trying to strip the ability to make that choice from me - that's where I start to get cranky.
Anonymous
Post 04/21/2012 08:40     Subject: Re:s/o - Aborting because a child is "disabled"
Well said 20:01. As a mom of a SN child, I can fully appreciate your post. Thanks for taking the time to add your posting to this thread.
Anonymous
Post 04/21/2012 08:26     Subject: Re:s/o - Aborting because a child is "disabled"
Oh gimmie a break 5:35. First of all I'm the first poster in that quote and I haven't read that book about Dee Dee and don't know what it's about. Second, somehow I doubt you have much to do with adults with Down syndrome, because if you did you wouldn't have such offensive things to say about them. If you really do spend time around people with Down syndrome then shame on you for perpetuating the idea that "where are the books about "cute" adults with Down syndrome?" i.e. When they grow up they aren't cute anymore and lose their appeal/worth.

And also, a person doesn't have to belong to the anti-abortion crowd to find all these rationalizations for terminating pregnancies because a wanted child will have Ds or something like it troubling. I am absolutely pro-choice, but if given the details of someone else's choice, although I don't think I should be able to dictate what other people do, I may well think they are making the wrong choice.
Anonymous
Post 04/21/2012 06:56     Subject: s/o - Aborting because a child is "disabled"
Anonymous wrote:I had an abortion because my baby had a fatal condition. I didn't think my mental health or my husband's would survive the pregnancy knowing our baby would die. I also didn't know if our baby would suffer in the womb or upon birth/death. I made the decision I thought was best for my baby as her mom. I made the decision also to save myself. Someone else can make a different decision, but that doesn't mean mine was wrong.


Although not someone who agrees with the concept of abortion on demand, I can certainly understand your decision under those circumstances and would likely have made the same very difficult choice. I'm sorry and know that had to be so hard for you and your husband.
Anonymous
Post 04/21/2012 06:24     Subject: Re:s/o - Aborting because a child is "disabled"
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
11:09 that makes me weep. I cannot imagine hearing those words, and the fact that the OP is so unbelievably unseeing that this is the case for many parents struggling with this information is just beyond the pale.

OP, you need to shut up when you don't know what you're talking about.


I am not the OP, but it makes me weep too. But the only difference is, the fact that you and the above PP are so unbelievably unseeing that killing your own child yourself just to save it from being killed? What? I don't get that?


Of course you wouldn't "get that." Have you been through it?

I'm not the PP, but yes, I have been through it and I also "don't get it." I forever will be grateful for the 20 wonderful days with my baby who had T18.


But understand that other people might feel about it differently. It's not your job to judge.


No judgment in my post, I was just sharing my personal experience as other PPs have done. I did what I needed to do. That's all.


There are many of us who understood that you were sharing very personal feelings and not being judgmental. My husband and I have some very dear friends whose first granddaughter was born with T18. She was greatly loved and gave so much joy during the 15 months of her life. When she passed away, her dad our friends' son) gave the most beautiful tribute and expression of his feelings. He shared many wonderful memories. Believe me, there was not one person in the church who did not shed tears--from sadness, yes, but also from an understanding and appreciation that her life had meaning.
Anonymous
Post 04/21/2012 06:13     Subject: s/o - Aborting because a child is "disabled"
Anonymous wrote:I don't mind people giving birth to babies that will live short agonizing lives because they think their imaginary god wants them to.

But when they start trying to dictate what I can do with my body because of the misogynist dictates of some virgin ex-Nazi in a dress, they can quite frankly go screw themselves.


You left out the other part of your sentence: "what I can do with my body and that of my unborn child."

Anonymous
Post 04/21/2012 06:10     Subject: s/o - Aborting because a child is "disabled"
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I think you need to MYOB. People make decisions for themselves based on THEIR life and THEIR situation.

No decision made is easy for parents in respect to this and I find your post offensive.


I find it offensive that people would choose to kill a wanted child because he/she has a disability.


The original post "touched nerves," so expect that some of the responses will reflect those feelings. For some parents, the choice is agonizingly hard; for others, not so much.
Anonymous
Post 04/21/2012 05:35     Subject: Re:s/o - Aborting because a child is "disabled"
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:And let me just add that while you are sitting on your ass crying crocodile tears about the abortion of Special Needs kids, some idiot has gone on for 14 pages in Schools General Discussion about why her children have to go to school with Special Needs kids. This is the real problem for Special Needs kids -- not abortion -- REAL LIFE -- so why not join reality, toots, and dry those crocodile tears. Phantom special needs babies don't need your help. Real special needs kids do.


Okay, (I'm not PP) but I will say one thing about this. First of all, the unborn aren't "phantoms." I am pro-choice, but unborn babies are real, not phantoms. But second, and I agree with your larger point in many ways, when mothers who discover their babies have Down syndrome and abort there are fewer kids with Down syndrome. This does impact children born with Down syndrome. The fewer kids with Down syndrome there are, the fewer supports are available to them, the less research into their development is done, and the more the children with Ds who are here are treated as oddities.

If people don't respect the lives of children with Ds enough to give birth to them, will they really care as much about their lives once they're born? The issue is complicated. Terminating a pregnancy because a baby has a condition incompatible with life is different than terminating a pregnancy because a child may have an intellectual disability. People who don't have Ds make judgements about how worthwhile a person with Ds's life will be based on their assumptions. What a life as a person with Ds (for instance) has may really be very different than those assumptions. Not to mention that one could abort a baby who has Ds because they are afraid they may have health issues, or create a burden for those siblings left after parents die, and then give birth to a child with an even more debilitating disability that can't be detected prenatally.

I am pro-choice and believe women should be able to make choices for themselves. I don't have the right to make these choices for other families. But this issue is a difficult one, and sometimes I think people do make the wrong choice.



You hit the nail on the head. The drop in Down Syndrome children isn't because it occurs less but because these children aren't allowed to be born. One of my favorite books growing up was about a girl and her friend with Down Syndrome.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0590401688?SubscriptionId=0QCHRJVSKG6F3BRGBNG2&tag=pbs_00005-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=0590401688



We are NOT running out of Special Needs children. Another myth by the anti-abortion crowd. And yes, everyone loves DS kids. But where are the cute books about DS adults?


Man, this is so offensive, and troubling that you don't see this. I am not anti-abortion. I am pro-choice. And I didn't say we are running out of children with special needs. I said that as more and more children with Down syndrome are aborted the ones who aren't may suffer from a decline in funding for research, and may stand out as less common that they would otherwise be in society. And there are books out there about adults with Down syndrome and people with Down syndrome are not only valuable as cute kids. And also for your info unfortunately not everyone does think kids with Ds are "cute" and what shitty patronizing way to denigrate a group of people. "Well, people may care about you when you're a cute kid, but once you turn into the monster an adult with Ds becomes your true worth will be revealed."

Fuck you asshole. What do you really know about adults with Ds anyway?


As an SN mom, I see kids and adults with DS everyday, and they are my kid's friends and peers. But thanks for that fuck you. Go back to your book about DeeDee since it makes you feel so good about yourself.
Anonymous
Post 04/20/2012 20:41     Subject: s/o - Aborting because a child is "disabled"
Anonymous wrote:I had an abortion because my baby had a fatal condition. I didn't think my mental health or my husband's would survive the pregnancy knowing our baby would die. I also didn't know if our baby would suffer in the womb or upon birth/death. I made the decision I thought was best for my baby as her mom. I made the decision also to save myself. Someone else can make a different decision, but that doesn't mean mine was wrong.


I'm in tears for you. I can only imagine your pain. I would have done the same thing as you. Hugs.
Anonymous
Post 04/20/2012 20:39     Subject: Re:s/o - Aborting because a child is "disabled"
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:And let me just add that while you are sitting on your ass crying crocodile tears about the abortion of Special Needs kids, some idiot has gone on for 14 pages in Schools General Discussion about why her children have to go to school with Special Needs kids. This is the real problem for Special Needs kids -- not abortion -- REAL LIFE -- so why not join reality, toots, and dry those crocodile tears. Phantom special needs babies don't need your help. Real special needs kids do.


Okay, (I'm not PP) but I will say one thing about this. First of all, the unborn aren't "phantoms." I am pro-choice, but unborn babies are real, not phantoms. But second, and I agree with your larger point in many ways, when mothers who discover their babies have Down syndrome and abort there are fewer kids with Down syndrome. This does impact children born with Down syndrome. The fewer kids with Down syndrome there are, the fewer supports are available to them, the less research into their development is done, and the more the children with Ds who are here are treated as oddities.

If people don't respect the lives of children with Ds enough to give birth to them, will they really care as much about their lives once they're born? The issue is complicated. Terminating a pregnancy because a baby has a condition incompatible with life is different than terminating a pregnancy because a child may have an intellectual disability. People who don't have Ds make judgements about how worthwhile a person with Ds's life will be based on their assumptions. What a life as a person with Ds (for instance) has may really be very different than those assumptions. Not to mention that one could abort a baby who has Ds because they are afraid they may have health issues, or create a burden for those siblings left after parents die, and then give birth to a child with an even more debilitating disability that can't be detected prenatally.

I am pro-choice and believe women should be able to make choices for themselves. I don't have the right to make these choices for other families. But this issue is a difficult one, and sometimes I think people do make the wrong choice.



You hit the nail on the head. The drop in Down Syndrome children isn't because it occurs less but because these children aren't allowed to be born. One of my favorite books growing up was about a girl and her friend with Down Syndrome.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0590401688?SubscriptionId=0QCHRJVSKG6F3BRGBNG2&tag=pbs_00005-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=0590401688



We are NOT running out of Special Needs children. Another myth by the anti-abortion crowd. And yes, everyone loves DS kids. But where are the cute books about DS adults?


Man, this is so offensive, and troubling that you don't see this. I am not anti-abortion. I am pro-choice. And I didn't say we are running out of children with special needs. I said that as more and more children with Down syndrome are aborted the ones who aren't may suffer from a decline in funding for research, and may stand out as less common that they would otherwise be in society. And there are books out there about adults with Down syndrome and people with Down syndrome are not only valuable as cute kids. And also for your info unfortunately not everyone does think kids with Ds are "cute" and what shitty patronizing way to denigrate a group of people. "Well, people may care about you when you're a cute kid, but once you turn into the monster an adult with Ds becomes your true worth will be revealed."

Fuck you asshole. What do you really know about adults with Ds anyway?
Anonymous
Post 04/20/2012 20:33     Subject: Re:s/o - Aborting because a child is "disabled"
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:And let me just add that while you are sitting on your ass crying crocodile tears about the abortion of Special Needs kids, some idiot has gone on for 14 pages in Schools General Discussion about why her children have to go to school with Special Needs kids. This is the real problem for Special Needs kids -- not abortion -- REAL LIFE -- so why not join reality, toots, and dry those crocodile tears. Phantom special needs babies don't need your help. Real special needs kids do.


Okay, (I'm not PP) but I will say one thing about this. First of all, the unborn aren't "phantoms." I am pro-choice, but unborn babies are real, not phantoms. But second, and I agree with your larger point in many ways, when mothers who discover their babies have Down syndrome and abort there are fewer kids with Down syndrome. This does impact children born with Down syndrome. The fewer kids with Down syndrome there are, the fewer supports are available to them, the less research into their development is done, and the more the children with Ds who are here are treated as oddities.

If people don't respect the lives of children with Ds enough to give birth to them, will they really care as much about their lives once they're born? The issue is complicated. Terminating a pregnancy because a baby has a condition incompatible with life is different than terminating a pregnancy because a child may have an intellectual disability. People who don't have Ds make judgements about how worthwhile a person with Ds's life will be based on their assumptions. What a life as a person with Ds (for instance) has may really be very different than those assumptions. Not to mention that one could abort a baby who has Ds because they are afraid they may have health issues, or create a burden for those siblings left after parents die, and then give birth to a child with an even more debilitating disability that can't be detected prenatally.

I am pro-choice and believe women should be able to make choices for themselves. I don't have the right to make these choices for other families. But this issue is a difficult one, and sometimes I think people do make the wrong choice.



You hit the nail on the head. The drop in Down Syndrome children isn't because it occurs less but because these children aren't allowed to be born. One of my favorite books growing up was about a girl and her friend with Down Syndrome.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0590401688?SubscriptionId=0QCHRJVSKG6F3BRGBNG2&tag=pbs_00005-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=0590401688



We are NOT running out of Special Needs children. Another myth by the anti-abortion crowd. And yes, everyone loves DS kids. But where are the cute books about DS adults?


You should read the book. DeDe isn't a kid. I also didn't say we were running out of Down Syndrome children but that there are fewer because people are making the choice to not have children with Down Syndrome.

FWIW ten years ago my brother and SIL were told my nephew would have Down Syndrome. He didn't.
Anonymous
Post 04/20/2012 20:29     Subject: s/o - Aborting because a child is "disabled"
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:You know what I don't get? Why people feel the need to argue about this. It's a personal choice.


Everything in life is a personal choice but that doesn't mean you agree with everyone's choices.


Why do you have to agree/approve of someone else's choice?


If you think that everyone goes thru life viewing others' actions in a completely neutral manner, maybe you live in Utopia. Where I live, seems there are lots of folks always judging other folks for what they do: how they parent, what they feed their kids, how they dress their children, etc. We do not live in a zero sum, opinion-neutral world. It is fooling yourself if you think that everything is relative.


No, I'm not completely neutral. I still don't get the need to argue about them.
Anonymous
Post 04/20/2012 20:26     Subject: s/o - Aborting because a child is "disabled"
To the PP, are you in DC? If so, find out if your kids can qualify for Katie Beckett Health Care Waiver.
Big hugs, from another Mom with almost your exact same life. xxoo