Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:21:27, I don't equate people's worth with their income either. I was making a point with an inflammatory remark. I wrapped up a woman's decision to WOH in the most insulting way. Not because I really feel like WOHM are abandoning their children - but to serve as a rebuttal to the remarks made on this thread that seem to cast SAHM as backwards for making a choice to stay home.

My saying it is unfair to the kids to WOH - is like the PPs who said it is unfair to DH NOT to work. Casting WOH as selfish - like casting SAH as 1950s.....

Tyring to make a point is all.

Well, when you are deliberately insulting you may be disrespectful in ways you do not intend. You come across as an elitist bitch. I have been a SAHM and I did not find any of the posts insulting towards SAHM. I think your grasp of this discussion is weak and you are insecure about your choices. Tired of people being bitchy on this forum and thinking they are effectively "making a point."

Agree completely. The reference to 'minimum wage childcare workers' is disgusting. The women who work at my son's daycare are loving and intelligent - and providing for their families. I have infinitely more respect for them than I do for someone like you (referring of course to the PP who made the childcare workers comment, not the immediate PP). I also think it's infinitely better for a child to be surrounded by people like them than spend all of his/her time with an elitish bitch like you.

You guys really love to throw that b-word around a lot. Anyway - I know this is going to probably sound like the recent Rush Limbaugh apology - but I really did not mean to belittle anyone with my comment about minimum wage workers. I'm sorry.

It is NO secret that in this country all of the great people who make it their profession to care for children are underpaid (child care workers, nannies, teachers) Do I think that makes them less than worthy? No. I was trying to make a point about what we say about each others choices - and am wondering WHY, still, that WOH moms can say anything, but SAH must silently stand by our choice as to not offend anyone.... no one has addressed this - too busy with the nasty name calling.

you didn't mean to imply that they were worthy but underpaid. give me a break. you think you're better and more important to society than they are though objectively, they're outearning you.
WOH moms can say anything? hve you read this board? WOH moms are attacked often, as well.

And by "outearning" me, they are "better and more important to society" than me, right? Because I do not earn a paycheck, I am, in fact, beneath them? So you are saying that they are beneath anyone who "outearns" them? Who is the elitist? Who is the one attaching personal worth to a paycheck?

I haven't seen a single attack on WOH on this thread. Just the SAHM Donna Reeds. No, have not read the entire forum.

I don't think either of you are better or worse than the other. I don't even think it's possible to quantify people that way. I think that they contribute more to society than you do, though, yes. These people mean an enormous amount to me and have enriched my family's life immeasurably. My son is surrounded by love and kindness and I know dozens of other families at the place he attends that feel the same way. It has nothing to do with a paycheck. They are helping many, many people are you chose to attack them, even though you now claim you didn't. Keep in mind I'm not the pp who initially called you an elitist bitch. I don't have a problem with SAHM's - especially, as I mentioned, since I don't think you're doing your kid any favors by denying him/her time with those 'miminum wage workers' you detest so much. Sure, sure - you were trying to make a point - but if you didn't think of them that way to a degree it'd never have occurred to you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How about you make more money so DH can stay home with the kids? Maybe he secretly resents you.

My DH does stay at home with the kids. I kind of resent that he doesn't have the earning power to be the one that goes to work while *I* stay home.

How many husbands do you think feel the same way?

Anonymous wrote:How about you make more money so DH can stay home with the kids? Maybe he secretly resents you.

My DH does stay at home with the kids. I kind of resent that he doesn't have the earning power to be the one that goes to work while *I* stay home.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"

Option #1: He could have decided not to marry me, because he knew my desire to care for my own children should we have any before we married. But it made him love me more, not scare him away.

Option #2: He could have stayed home and I would have stayed in the job that was making more than his at the time (his salary has now far surpassed that) I would have supported that if he had a strong desire to SAH, but I wanted to more than he did.

Option #3: He could have balked post birth of first DC and said he's changed his mind about being the sole provider and we would have worked something else out. (There was a short period of time (a few months) when things were tough in the beginning of DH's career and I did contract work to help out - I didn't throw my hands up in the air and say "its all you, babe!"

Option #4: He could have decided that he did not want to have two more DCs after the first if the pressure was too much.

I am the PP with the resentful DH.

Honestly, you sound a lot like I did in explaining and defending the choice. The major difference between us is that it seems that your DH was aware that you might decide to SAH before the children came along.

Allow me to give you some non-critical advice. You said some of the same things that I did and that raises flares for me. Namely, that your personal desire to SAH trumped all (including, I assume, any concerns your DH had – expressed or unexpressed). And that you made the decision to SAH and your DH supported your decision (i.e., went along with it). So it seems as if you drove the decision and you were able to justify it to him. Great. And then you listed 4 instances where your DH could have chosen to go a different path. All true, I guess. But given that YOU made the SAH choice, did he really feel that he could have made those decisions without you being resentful? Strictly rhetorical because I know my DH would not have squashed something that I felt so strongly about.

I do have a couple bits of advice that may help you avoid my situation. Realize that all of this support you get from DH may change – especially if he gets wind that you may not be returning to work when all of the kids hit school-age. Start managing his expectations now! Also, keep tabs on his health and stress levels. I do not know about your DH, but my DH would never come out and say that he felt the pressure. Thus, I assumed that everything was going fine. Finally and most importantly (this was my biggest mistake), understand that every choice has consequences. You made the choice to SAH and that is your right – heck, I made the same choice. What I did not realize was that my choice was not made in a vacuum. My choice had a profound impact on my DH and it altered his ability to be focused as a husband and a father. He was more focused on “providing” for the kids and not as much on being a “father” to them. As a result, our priorities became mis-aligned and we had some serious problems - we were separated for 6 months and the SAH issue was a major contributing factor. We are doing much better but it took counseling and sacrifice on both our parts.

GL and I am glad that it is working well for you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:21:27, I don't equate people's worth with their income either. I was making a point with an inflammatory remark. I wrapped up a woman's decision to WOH in the most insulting way. Not because I really feel like WOHM are abandoning their children - but to serve as a rebuttal to the remarks made on this thread that seem to cast SAHM as backwards for making a choice to stay home.

My saying it is unfair to the kids to WOH - is like the PPs who said it is unfair to DH NOT to work. Casting WOH as selfish - like casting SAH as 1950s.....

Tyring to make a point is all.

Well, when you are deliberately insulting you may be disrespectful in ways you do not intend. You come across as an elitist bitch. I have been a SAHM and I did not find any of the posts insulting towards SAHM. I think your grasp of this discussion is weak and you are insecure about your choices. Tired of people being bitchy on this forum and thinking they are effectively "making a point."

Agree completely. The reference to 'minimum wage childcare workers' is disgusting. The women who work at my son's daycare are loving and intelligent - and providing for their families. I have infinitely more respect for them than I do for someone like you (referring of course to the PP who made the childcare workers comment, not the immediate PP). I also think it's infinitely better for a child to be surrounded by people like them than spend all of his/her time with an elitish bitch like you.

You guys really love to throw that b-word around a lot. Anyway - I know this is going to probably sound like the recent Rush Limbaugh apology - but I really did not mean to belittle anyone with my comment about minimum wage workers. I'm sorry.

It is NO secret that in this country all of the great people who make it their profession to care for children are underpaid (child care workers, nannies, teachers) Do I think that makes them less than worthy? No. I was trying to make a point about what we say about each others choices - and am wondering WHY, still, that WOH moms can say anything, but SAH must silently stand by our choice as to not offend anyone.... no one has addressed this - too busy with the nasty name calling.

you didn't mean to imply that they were worthy but underpaid. give me a break. you think you're better and more important to society than they are though objectively, they're outearning you.
WOH moms can say anything? hve you read this board? WOH moms are attacked often, as well.

And by "outearning" me, they are "better and more important to society" than me, right? Because I do not earn a paycheck, I am, in fact, beneath them? So you are saying that they are beneath anyone who "outearns" them? Who is the elitist? Who is the one attaching personal worth to a paycheck?

I haven't seen a single attack on WOH on this thread. Just the SAHM Donna Reeds. No, have not read the entire forum.

Anonymous wrote:"Of course, "for the CHILD", who else? I had my first @ 32 - not sure what the age has to do with it? Are you saying this to point out that you were already established with a career? I am happy for you that you cherished the moments you had/have with your DCs. But don't assume that you cherished them "more" than a SAHM - how could you possibly know that? If you know enough about yourself to know that you may have taken the time with your children for granted if you SAH, that's one thing, but you cannot compare your experience to others and make assumptions. "

I'm saying that there are substitutes. and good ones, so the PARENTS can do other things besides childcare. And you are right, I can't compare to other moms. I have a best friend who is a totally devoted SAHM and she truly cherishes her children, to the point of neglecting regular exercise and maintenance of her own body (haircuts, etc.). She would have major resentment if she had had to spend 40 hours or more a week away from her children when they were young. You sound like you are more like her.

YES! Agree completely. And do you think that your BF is a backwards, bizarre, 1950s, Donna Reed who is being entirely unfair to her husband??? I hope not - and I would think not, since you find her worthy to be a BF. And yes, I am like her in that I would resent being away from my DCs 40 hrs a week, but not like her in the exercise/maintenance =)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:21:27, I don't equate people's worth with their income either. I was making a point with an inflammatory remark. I wrapped up a woman's decision to WOH in the most insulting way. Not because I really feel like WOHM are abandoning their children - but to serve as a rebuttal to the remarks made on this thread that seem to cast SAHM as backwards for making a choice to stay home.

My saying it is unfair to the kids to WOH - is like the PPs who said it is unfair to DH NOT to work. Casting WOH as selfish - like casting SAH as 1950s.....

Tyring to make a point is all.

Well, when you are deliberately insulting you may be disrespectful in ways you do not intend. You come across as an elitist bitch. I have been a SAHM and I did not find any of the posts insulting towards SAHM. I think your grasp of this discussion is weak and you are insecure about your choices. Tired of people being bitchy on this forum and thinking they are effectively "making a point."

Agree completely. The reference to 'minimum wage childcare workers' is disgusting. The women who work at my son's daycare are loving and intelligent - and providing for their families. I have infinitely more respect for them than I do for someone like you (referring of course to the PP who made the childcare workers comment, not the immediate PP). I also think it's infinitely better for a child to be surrounded by people like them than spend all of his/her time with an elitish bitch like you.

You guys really love to throw that b-word around a lot. Anyway - I know this is going to probably sound like the recent Rush Limbaugh apology - but I really did not mean to belittle anyone with my comment about minimum wage workers. I'm sorry.

It is NO secret that in this country all of the great people who make it their profession to care for children are underpaid (child care workers, nannies, teachers) Do I think that makes them less than worthy? No. I was trying to make a point about what we say about each others choices - and am wondering WHY, still, that WOH moms can say anything, but SAH must silently stand by our choice as to not offend anyone.... no one has addressed this - too busy with the nasty name calling.

you didn't mean to imply that they were worthy but underpaid. give me a break. you think you're better and more important to society than they are though objectively, they're outearning you.
WOH moms can say anything? hve you read this board? WOH moms are attacked often, as well.

Anonymous wrote:"Do you have ANY idea what it takes to care for 3 young children? And do it WELL? Yes, I do plenty without having to scrub the floors and clean toilets.

I think that when all 3 are in school full time, I'd like to pursue some of my personal interests (which may or may not lead me back into the paying workforce) rather than ramp up on the housework. "

You created all that work when you decided to have three, rather than one or two, and to space them so closely. And when does your husband get to pursue his personal interests? Once he's retired?

Yes, we did. And? We certainly don't regret it. I don't recall complaining about my situation at all. DH is just doing just fine, thank you for asking. We currently both find time for personal interests - just saying that I will do more when all DCs are in school. FWIW, it was DH who insisted on hiring domestic help so that I could focus on the kids and still have some moments for myself.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:21:27, I don't equate people's worth with their income either. I was making a point with an inflammatory remark. I wrapped up a woman's decision to WOH in the most insulting way. Not because I really feel like WOHM are abandoning their children - but to serve as a rebuttal to the remarks made on this thread that seem to cast SAHM as backwards for making a choice to stay home.

My saying it is unfair to the kids to WOH - is like the PPs who said it is unfair to DH NOT to work. Casting WOH as selfish - like casting SAH as 1950s.....

Tyring to make a point is all.

Well, when you are deliberately insulting you may be disrespectful in ways you do not intend. You come across as an elitist bitch. I have been a SAHM and I did not find any of the posts insulting towards SAHM. I think your grasp of this discussion is weak and you are insecure about your choices. Tired of people being bitchy on this forum and thinking they are effectively "making a point."

Agree completely. The reference to 'minimum wage childcare workers' is disgusting. The women who work at my son's daycare are loving and intelligent - and providing for their families. I have infinitely more respect for them than I do for someone like you (referring of course to the PP who made the childcare workers comment, not the immediate PP). I also think it's infinitely better for a child to be surrounded by people like them than spend all of his/her time with an elitish bitch like you.

You guys really love to throw that b-word around a lot. Anyway - I know this is going to probably sound like the recent Rush Limbaugh apology - but I really did not mean to belittle anyone with my comment about minimum wage workers. I'm sorry.

It is NO secret that in this country all of the great people who make it their profession to care for children are underpaid (child care workers, nannies, teachers) Do I think that makes them less than worthy? No. I was trying to make a point about what we say about each others choices - and am wondering WHY, still, that WOH moms can say anything, but SAH must silently stand by our choice as to not offend anyone.... no one has addressed this - too busy with the nasty name calling.

"Do you have ANY idea what it takes to care for 3 young children? And do it WELL? Yes, I do plenty without having to scrub the floors and clean toilets.

I think that when all 3 are in school full time, I'd like to pursue some of my personal interests (which may or may not lead me back into the paying workforce) rather than ramp up on the housework. "

You created all that work when you decided to have three, rather than one or two, and to space them so closely. And when does your husband get to pursue his personal interests? Once he's retired?

"Of course, "for the CHILD", who else? I had my first @ 32 - not sure what the age has to do with it? Are you saying this to point out that you were already established with a career? I am happy for you that you cherished the moments you had/have with your DCs. But don't assume that you cherished them "more" than a SAHM - how could you possibly know that? If you know enough about yourself to know that you may have taken the time with your children for granted if you SAH, that's one thing, but you cannot compare your experience to others and make assumptions. "

I'm saying that there are substitutes. and good ones, so the PARENTS can do other things besides childcare. And you are right, I can't compare to other moms. I have a best friend who is a totally devoted SAHM and she truly cherishes her children, to the point of neglecting regular exercise and maintenance of her own body (haircuts, etc.). She would have major resentment if she had had to spend 40 hours or more a week away from her children when they were young. You sound like you are more like her.

Anonymous wrote:"I SAH, care for my children, and pay someone to do the "domestic crap" as you so eloquently put it, that I don't enjoy. I love to cook, though. "

WOW - you not only don't work you don't even do all the SAH work? Amazing. You really feel you're pulling your weight around the house? Will you still feel that way once all the children are in full day school?

Do you have ANY idea what it takes to care for 3 young children? And do it WELL? Yes, I do plenty without having to scrub the floors and clean toilets.

I think that when all 3 are in school full time, I'd like to pursue some of my personal interests (which may or may not lead me back into the paying workforce) rather than ramp up on the housework.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:21:27, I don't equate people's worth with their income either. I was making a point with an inflammatory remark. I wrapped up a woman's decision to WOH in the most insulting way. Not because I really feel like WOHM are abandoning their children - but to serve as a rebuttal to the remarks made on this thread that seem to cast SAHM as backwards for making a choice to stay home.

My saying it is unfair to the kids to WOH - is like the PPs who said it is unfair to DH NOT to work. Casting WOH as selfish - like casting SAH as 1950s.....

Tyring to make a point is all.

Well, when you are deliberately insulting you may be disrespectful in ways you do not intend. You come across as an elitist bitch. I have been a SAHM and I did not find any of the posts insulting towards SAHM. I think your grasp of this discussion is weak and you are insecure about your choices. Tired of people being bitchy on this forum and thinking they are effectively "making a point."

Agree completely. The reference to 'minimum wage childcare workers' is disgusting. The women who work at my son's daycare are loving and intelligent - and providing for their families. I have infinitely more respect for them than I do for someone like you (referring of course to the PP who made the childcare workers comment, not the immediate PP). I also think it's infinitely better for a child to be surrounded by people like them than spend all of his/her time with an elitish bitch like you.

Anonymous wrote:"I, personally, don't think there is any substitute that comes close to a parent interaction with a child. And selfishly, I wanted to cherish every moment (I can already hear the groans, but its true, sorry.) Some will call it an "over glorification" of the role of a mother - but for me - well, I wouldn't trade the past 7 years for anything. "

For the CHILD maybe, but I didn't even have my first child until I was 34 - there was, and is, a lot more going on in my life that would be gone if I'd SAH for 7 years. I cherished moments with my children more because they weren't 24/7.

Of course, "for the CHILD", who else? I had my first @ 32 - not sure what the age has to do with it? Are you saying this to point out that you were already established with a career? I am happy for you that you cherished the moments you had/have with your DCs. But don't assume that you cherished them "more" than a SAHM - how could you possibly know that? If you know enough about yourself to know that you may have taken the time with your children for granted if you SAH, that's one thing, but you cannot compare your experience to others and make assumptions.

Anonymous wrote:"It is the glaring double standard that bothers me. Tell me, why is it OK to say things like "It is entirely UNFAIR to DH for me not to work!" but it is inflammatory to say "It is entirely UNFAIR to the kids for both parents to WOH!" What is the difference? Please, enlighten me. Why is perfectly OK to reference SAHMs as "bizarre", "1950's" and as "subscribing to gender stereotypes?"

When my first DC was born, I was in the very fortunate position to decide WHATEVER I wanted to. I have an excellent education, advanced degrees, enough money to have paid for full time care and still brought home a salary worth contributing - in the end, my personal desire to be home with my children while they are young trumped all. This was a decision fully supported by DH - if I had decided to WOH, he would have equally supported that. My being home, (he has often reminded me while thanking me for all that I do) makes his work life LESS stressful.

This is what works for our family and not because I am lazy, lack ambition or because I felt like this was my role as a woman. We haven't moved forward if women are still getting categorized/labeled/criticized for not making the "correct" choices of the day. And it goes BOTH ways."

Ooookay, Donna Reed. What options did DH have if "it goes both ways"?

Option #1: He could have decided not to marry me, because he knew my desire to care for my own children should we have any before we married. But it made him love me more, not scare him away.

Option #2: He could have stayed home and I would have stayed in the job that was making more than his at the time (his salary has now far surpassed that) I would have supported that if he had a strong desire to SAH, but I wanted to more than he did.

Option #3: He could have balked post birth of first DC and said he's changed his mind about being the sole provider and we would have worked something else out. (There was a short period of time (a few months) when things were tough in the beginning of DH's career and I did contract work to help out - I didn't throw my hands up in the air and say "its all you, babe!"

Option #4: He could have decided that he did not want to have two more DCs after the first if the pressure was too much.