Anonymous wrote:A side question for anybody BUT the Wicca poster:

Are all Wicca immature jerks? I'm curious. The only one I know is the one on DCUM. And geez, she is a real doozy - intolerant, rude, and totally immature.

Please persuade me there are some nice, mature, tolerant Wiccans out there!

I know a number of Wiccans (I'm not one of them). As a group, they are significantly nicer and more tolerant people than the majority of Christians that I know. "intolerant, rude and totally immature" defines a large number of Christians that I see on a daily basis. I see a lot of Christians daily who believe that everyone is Christian and should be treated as a Christian. While that may seem nice and tolerant to you, it's completely intolerant and rude to the non-Christians out there. The funny thing is that there is no shortage of Christians who will belittle and denigrate a pagan's religion and practices, but do the same to a Christian and you are treated as if you were a terrorist.

Anonymous wrote:reporting it being a christian is lil bit pathetic.

No, what's pathetic is using "lil bit" in an adult sentence.

reporting it being a christian is lil bit pathetic.

OP, if everyone in the office was Catholic and saying the Lord's Prayer and making the sign of the cross, would you have felt the same?

You mentioned being Catholic at some point.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Totally and completely inappropriate in a government office. Period.

PP. I agree that sectarian prayer is inappropriate as it can make others uncomfortable, but whether it rises to an ethics violation or violation of the White House directive on religion in the workplace is what is at issue here. Bear in mind that the White House directive says that employees can have a Bible study meeting in a first-come-first-serve meeting room during lunch breaks or can proselytize colleagues provided they stop if asked, so religion is not somehow barred in the workplace. The appearance of official government endorsement of religion is.

I agree with you, but I think what is protected is freedom of speech in informal settings. So if you and your coworker wanted to get together over a break and talk about religion, that would be OK. If you wanted to hand out pamphlets about your religion, that would be OK. I think the line is crossed because 1) this was not an informal gathering, it was a department wide gathering; 2) It was during work hours; 3) The supervisor initiated the prayer; and 4) work-related business was discussed at the meeting.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here:

I think it is meant as a social function during work time. Is it "mandatory,"? I supposed it is technically not. Was I given the option the first time?... no. I was just told that "we are all meeting in conf. room."

It would be noticeable if I was not there in the future... boss addressed the group initially, so I'd feel like I might miss something if I wans't there. (plus the stigma of "not one of us.")

OP stop trying to bring race into this. The AA you are speaking of are 9/10 the "not one of us" more times than you will ever be. You experience this at work, get over it or switch jobs if you can't deal with being in the minority.

Pssst. Don't look now, but you're the one who brought race in this time.

You took my bait! Let me reel you in.

Anonymous wrote:I agree that it is inappropriate, in any office, for a boss to kick off a gathering by asking everyone to bow their heads in prayer, or even ask someone to lead the group in prayer (even if they want to). That said, what can OP do about it that won't turn into a huge clusterfuck?

I agree with this. I think it's inappropriate. But it's not the only piece of OP's relationship with her coworkers and her boss, and I worry about her long-term experience in this office.

I was the one who asked whether it would be obvious that she was the one who went to the ethics office, and while I didn't use the word clusterfuck, I think it's apt. If everyone else starts to hate her because she got her boss reprimanded/ended the fellowship meetings/got other staff interrogated by the ethics folks/got everybody signed up for mandatory ethics training, then she'll probably be a lot worse off than just being uncomfortable once a month. This still doesn't make the prayer session right, but it might make OP's life easier in the long run.

My first course of action would be to go to the boss, tell him I'm uncomfortable, and work out something with him. Maybe she can show up 20 minutes late for breakfast, after the prayer is over. Or, she could go for the prayer but use the moment of silence for something else, like meditating, or planning her family dinner, or something else. They can't actually force her to pray, after all.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here:

I think it is meant as a social function during work time. Is it "mandatory,"? I supposed it is technically not. Was I given the option the first time?... no. I was just told that "we are all meeting in conf. room."

It would be noticeable if I was not there in the future... boss addressed the group initially, so I'd feel like I might miss something if I wans't there. (plus the stigma of "not one of us.")

OP stop trying to bring race into this. The AA you are speaking of are 9/10 the "not one of us" more times than you will ever be. You experience this at work, get over it or switch jobs if you can't deal with being in the minority.

Pssst. Don't look now, but you're the one who brought race in this time.

Anonymous wrote:OP here:

I think it is meant as a social function during work time. Is it "mandatory,"? I supposed it is technically not. Was I given the option the first time?... no. I was just told that "we are all meeting in conf. room."

It would be noticeable if I was not there in the future... boss addressed the group initially, so I'd feel like I might miss something if I wans't there. (plus the stigma of "not one of us.")

OP stop trying to bring race into this. The AA you are speaking of are 9/10 the "not one of us" more times than you will ever be. You experience this at work, get over it or switch jobs if you can't deal with being in the minority.

Anonymous wrote:[b]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One last thing: I did not take it as "optional" at all. This is what everyone was doing. Maybe in the future I could stay away, but b/c of the race/education/cultural difference, it might possibly look like I'm shunning everyone, which is not going to be good.

"Everyone is going to breakfast" does not equal "mandatory."

Sure it can.

I think the OP would have a very hard time proving that this breakfast is mandatory based only on the fact that everyone attends.

OP doesn't need to prove that it's mandatory. Appearances count. Everyone gathering and doing this creates the appearance of an office-endorsed gathering with the supervisor directing prayers to Jesus. What if OP doesn't go--s/he'll look like the odd person out and these things do affect careers. No one should be put on the outside because they don't want to go bow their heads or whatever.

I don't know why the OP put in the title that the boss led the prayer as she states in another post that the supervisor handed it over to another employee to say a prayer. I don't go to all sorts of optional events in my office that lots of people go to -- maybe even everyone -- and until someone starts retaliating against me for it or pressuring me to go because I don't look like a team player, I'm not going to get all worked up.

Anonymous wrote:its not inappropriate, and don't make a big deal and ruin your work relationships for something so trivial. respect other peoples beliefs.

I agree.

Anonymous wrote:OP here:

I think it is meant as a social function during work time. Is it "mandatory,"? I supposed it is technically not. Was I given the option the first time?... no. I was just told that "we are all meeting in conf. room."

It would be noticeable if I was not there in the future... boss addressed the group initially, so I'd feel like I might miss something if I wans't there. (plus the stigma of "not one of us.")

How was it mandatory? Did you ask? Once the prayer started, did they lock all the doors and handcuff you there? I'm quite sure you could have excused yourself or silently walked away. Speak up next time and stop assuming the worst in people.

[b]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One last thing: I did not take it as "optional" at all. This is what everyone was doing. Maybe in the future I could stay away, but b/c of the race/education/cultural difference, it might possibly look like I'm shunning everyone, which is not going to be good.

"Everyone is going to breakfast" does not equal "mandatory."

Sure it can.

I think the OP would have a very hard time proving that this breakfast is mandatory based only on the fact that everyone attends.

OP doesn't need to prove that it's mandatory. Appearances count. Everyone gathering and doing this creates the appearance of an office-endorsed gathering with the supervisor directing prayers to Jesus. What if OP doesn't go--s/he'll look like the odd person out and these things do affect careers. No one should be put on the outside because they don't want to go bow their heads or whatever.

its not inappropriate, and don't make a big deal and ruin your work relationships for something so trivial. respect other peoples beliefs.

Anonymous wrote:Totally and completely inappropriate in a government office. Period.

PP. I agree that sectarian prayer is inappropriate as it can make others uncomfortable, but whether it rises to an ethics violation or violation of the White House directive on religion in the workplace is what is at issue here. Bear in mind that the White House directive says that employees can have a Bible study meeting in a first-come-first-serve meeting room during lunch breaks or can proselytize colleagues provided they stop if asked, so religion is not somehow barred in the workplace. The appearance of official government endorsement of religion is.