The fact that counselors had no means of communication from their cabin is BONKERS. Forget about floods, this is just unsafe in general. So the only way to handle any emergency is physically leave the cabin and go find someone?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There were too few adults and staff in charge of too many kids. I don’t count the counselors as adults. Many of them were just rising college freshmen and kids themselves.

While the geography and topography is an issue, the adult to kid ratio is also something that has been not talked about enough.

I'm not sure more staff would have made a difference. It seems like they didn't understand how high or quickly raising the water was. And that was probably a product of it being at night and in the middle of a heavy storm.

Had they known earlier, they almost certainly would have told people to leave the cabins. But until that point, an evacuation at night through severe weather wouldn't have looked like a good risk tradeoff.

Once they knew, it would have quickly become too late, with the water level becoming too high to walk though.

More vehicles to aid in the evacuation may have helped. Maybe. But that also probably wouldn't have changed much if they still didn't know how fast the water was coming up.

Many of the counsellors knew the water was rising quickly but they had been told to stay in place - repeatedly - both in their training and also that night when the men were moving equipment. They also didn't have any communication devices (no phones or walkie talkies) and they didn't have battery operated light sources. They were also good Christian girls doing as they were told - these aren't rebels! They stayed in their cabins even while watching other cabins evacuate to higher ground and to the rec hall.

A few of the counsellors did have their survival instincts kick in and they took the girls out windows or doors to the nearby hills that were only 70 feet from the cabin doors. There were 3 cabins where the counsellors got the kids out near the end, and 2 that didn't. I am not blaming the counsellors, they were just doing as they were told. And then the owner put all 13 girls from one cabin in his truck and so when it was washed away, they all died.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you were to read the lawsuits, it’s not just that issue of cabins being close to water. It’s the actions taken that night, after warnings issued. Moving equipment was prioritized over moving campers, ordering campers to shelter in place despite being a 1 minute walk from safety…lying to parents when the campers were known to have died, to cover up their mistakes.

The equipment was on the water, they moved it up to the lowest lying cabins. They thought it was a safe level.

Doesn't explain why warnings were ignoredl.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There were too few adults and staff in charge of too many kids. I don’t count the counselors as adults. Many of them were just rising college freshmen and kids themselves.

While the geography and topography is an issue, the adult to kid ratio is also something that has been not talked about enough.

So besides the "adult" kid counselors, there weren't any adults present?

Most of the counsellors were 18 and 19. The other adults where the older owner and his wife, their son and his wife, the groundskeeper and the woman at the front gate / security house.

The 3 men were out moving equipment and then eventually trying to move the girls. The owners wife and the DIL stayed in their house, and the woman at the front gate was also trapped by the rising water and almost died.

Anonymous wrote:There were too few adults and staff in charge of too many kids. I don’t count the counselors as adults. Many of them were just rising college freshmen and kids themselves.

While the geography and topography is an issue, the adult to kid ratio is also something that has been not talked about enough.

I'm not sure more staff would have made a difference. It seems like they didn't understand how high or quickly raising the water was. And that was probably a product of it being at night and in the middle of a heavy storm.

Had they known earlier, they almost certainly would have told people to leave the cabins. But until that point, an evacuation at night through severe weather wouldn't have looked like a good risk tradeoff.

Once they knew, it would have quickly become too late, with the water level becoming too high to walk though.

More vehicles to aid in the evacuation may have helped. Maybe. But that also probably wouldn't have changed much if they still didn't know how fast the water was coming up.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many parents dont investigate. They just assume someone is taking care of that stuff, even more so with rich people.

I’ll admit I’m guilty of this. DD spent a good chunk of her summers from ages 10-18 at a camp that I never saw much beyond the pickup/dropoff point, which looked lovely and very safe. Last year, she finally took us on a tour of the entire camp and I was shocked at how isolated and remote some of the areas were. I do think that they had excellent emergency plans in place, but I could also see how things could get dangerous really fast.

I mean, it was a camp for rich/upper middle class girls that has been around for generations. A lot of us go off of word of mouth recs from other parents rather than analyzing camp maps and flood risk data.

But yes the camp deserves to be sued. The wife of the camp owner who died had to be helicoptered out one year because of flood waters. They certainly knew how dangerous the situation was.

But maybe you shouldn’t just use word of mouth when it comes to the safety of your kids. That’s the lesson.

I mean these are people who are outsourcing all their kids’ basic needs to other people from the time they’re born. They’re in the habit of choosing the highly-rated help and trusting the reputation

Are you a SAHP who never had a babysitter or a child in daycare? Do you home school your child? Most parents in this area do work outside the home these days, and most get childcare solutions by getting references from other parents, checking online reviews and getting background checks for people working in their home.

If you're pulling flood maps and checking the building inspection report of your kids' school, more power to you, but most people don't do this.

Wow, you need to do more research about the places you send your kids to. This area is known for flooding.

NP, most parents are not equipped to make this sort of evaluation and if you put the responsibility on them, more kids will continue to die in situations like this. The cabins should not have been located so close to the river, and the warning systems were inadequate.

Define "so close". What is the distance so that nothing unexpected will ever happen?

Exactly. Who could have expected this to heppen?

When you send your kids anywhere, you need to take any and all risks in consideration.
Especially somewhere like that.

Who's to say they didn't? Mathematically speaking, the chance of their kids getting swept away by a 100year flood that particular week was very, very small. This is different from say a home or landowner that needs to make that calulation over a longer time period- i.e., the chance of that piece of land experiencing a 100 year flood over say, the 30 years you live there is much higher.

But hopefully this serves as a wakeup call for everyone- not only in terms of where it makes sense to locate camps but also emergency/evacuation plans. My kids haven't attended an overnight camp yet but would I have thought to ask about those before this? Not sure I would have but I would now.

Over 30 years, you have about a 1 in 4 chance of having had a 100 year flood. I assume that means the camp owners were with periodically rebuilding the camp.

No, because there hasn't been a flood as bad as this one. The one in the 1930s came close, and did destroy some cabins. But perhaps in part because while the storm came overnight, the flood didn't happen at the camp until midday.

The floods since haven't gotten nearly as high.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many parents dont investigate. They just assume someone is taking care of that stuff, even more so with rich people.

I’ll admit I’m guilty of this. DD spent a good chunk of her summers from ages 10-18 at a camp that I never saw much beyond the pickup/dropoff point, which looked lovely and very safe. Last year, she finally took us on a tour of the entire camp and I was shocked at how isolated and remote some of the areas were. I do think that they had excellent emergency plans in place, but I could also see how things could get dangerous really fast.

I mean, it was a camp for rich/upper middle class girls that has been around for generations. A lot of us go off of word of mouth recs from other parents rather than analyzing camp maps and flood risk data.

But yes the camp deserves to be sued. The wife of the camp owner who died had to be helicoptered out one year because of flood waters. They certainly knew how dangerous the situation was.

But maybe you shouldn’t just use word of mouth when it comes to the safety of your kids. That’s the lesson.

I mean these are people who are outsourcing all their kids’ basic needs to other people from the time they’re born. They’re in the habit of choosing the highly-rated help and trusting the reputation

Are you a SAHP who never had a babysitter or a child in daycare? Do you home school your child? Most parents in this area do work outside the home these days, and most get childcare solutions by getting references from other parents, checking online reviews and getting background checks for people working in their home.

If you're pulling flood maps and checking the building inspection report of your kids' school, more power to you, but most people don't do this.

Wow, you need to do more research about the places you send your kids to. This area is known for flooding.

NP, most parents are not equipped to make this sort of evaluation and if you put the responsibility on them, more kids will continue to die in situations like this. The cabins should not have been located so close to the river, and the warning systems were inadequate.

Define "so close". What is the distance so that nothing unexpected will ever happen?

Exactly. Who could have expected this to heppen?

When you send your kids anywhere, you need to take any and all risks in consideration.
Especially somewhere like that.

Who's to say they didn't? Mathematically speaking, the chance of their kids getting swept away by a 100year flood that particular week was very, very small. This is different from say a home or landowner that needs to make that calulation over a longer time period- i.e., the chance of that piece of land experiencing a 100 year flood over say, the 30 years you live there is much higher.

But hopefully this serves as a wakeup call for everyone- not only in terms of where it makes sense to locate camps but also emergency/evacuation plans. My kids haven't attended an overnight camp yet but would I have thought to ask about those before this? Not sure I would have but I would now.

Over 30 years, you have about a 1 in 4 chance of having had a 100 year flood. I assume that means the camp owners were with periodically rebuilding the camp.

Anonymous wrote:There were too few adults and staff in charge of too many kids. I don’t count the counselors as adults. Many of them were just rising college freshmen and kids themselves.

While the geography and topography is an issue, the adult to kid ratio is also something that has been not talked about enough.

So besides the "adult" kid counselors, there weren't any adults present?

There were too few adults and staff in charge of too many kids. I don’t count the counselors as adults. Many of them were just rising college freshmen and kids themselves.

While the geography and topography is an issue, the adult to kid ratio is also something that has been not talked about enough.

Anonymous wrote:If you were to read the lawsuits, it’s not just that issue of cabins being close to water. It’s the actions taken that night, after warnings issued. Moving equipment was prioritized over moving campers, ordering campers to shelter in place despite being a 1 minute walk from safety…lying to parents when the campers were known to have died, to cover up their mistakes.

The equipment was on the water, they moved it up to the lowest lying cabins. They thought it was a safe level.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many parents dont investigate. They just assume someone is taking care of that stuff, even more so with rich people.

I’ll admit I’m guilty of this. DD spent a good chunk of her summers from ages 10-18 at a camp that I never saw much beyond the pickup/dropoff point, which looked lovely and very safe. Last year, she finally took us on a tour of the entire camp and I was shocked at how isolated and remote some of the areas were. I do think that they had excellent emergency plans in place, but I could also see how things could get dangerous really fast.

I mean, it was a camp for rich/upper middle class girls that has been around for generations. A lot of us go off of word of mouth recs from other parents rather than analyzing camp maps and flood risk data.

But yes the camp deserves to be sued. The wife of the camp owner who died had to be helicoptered out one year because of flood waters. They certainly knew how dangerous the situation was.

But maybe you shouldn’t just use word of mouth when it comes to the safety of your kids. That’s the lesson.

I mean these are people who are outsourcing all their kids’ basic needs to other people from the time they’re born. They’re in the habit of choosing the highly-rated help and trusting the reputation

Are you a SAHP who never had a babysitter or a child in daycare? Do you home school your child? Most parents in this area do work outside the home these days, and most get childcare solutions by getting references from other parents, checking online reviews and getting background checks for people working in their home.

If you're pulling flood maps and checking the building inspection report of your kids' school, more power to you, but most people don't do this.

Wow, you need to do more research about the places you send your kids to. This area is known for flooding.

NP, most parents are not equipped to make this sort of evaluation and if you put the responsibility on them, more kids will continue to die in situations like this. The cabins should not have been located so close to the river, and the warning systems were inadequate.

Define "so close". What is the distance so that nothing unexpected will ever happen?

Exactly. Who could have expected this to heppen?

FEMA apparently did, that’s what the flood maps are for

You think they nail it every time?

They nailed it this time. You asked who expected it - the risk was spelled out on the flood maps

You're a fool to think if you follow outdated FEMA maps you will be safe every time.

What a weird response, given the specifics of the flood we’re discussing in this thread. FEMA included parts of this camp in their flood plain. They were correct. The camp owners appealed and fought to have their camp excluded from the flood plain. Somehow their appeal was approved and they were excluded from the designated flood plain. There needs to be an investigation into the decision making process that approved the camp’s change in status. Was it based on accurate data? Inaccurate data? No data? Was someone paid off or doing a favor for an acquaintance?

You’re claiming the pp would have been a fool to follow the “outdated” FEMA flood map? The one that included the camp in the flood plain? Obviously you’re wrong.

+1. This is really shady and should be investigated. Those saying oh the parents should have known, but if FEMA removed the camp from the flood plain what exactly were they supposed to know?!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many parents dont investigate. They just assume someone is taking care of that stuff, even more so with rich people.

I’ll admit I’m guilty of this. DD spent a good chunk of her summers from ages 10-18 at a camp that I never saw much beyond the pickup/dropoff point, which looked lovely and very safe. Last year, she finally took us on a tour of the entire camp and I was shocked at how isolated and remote some of the areas were. I do think that they had excellent emergency plans in place, but I could also see how things could get dangerous really fast.

I mean, it was a camp for rich/upper middle class girls that has been around for generations. A lot of us go off of word of mouth recs from other parents rather than analyzing camp maps and flood risk data.

But yes the camp deserves to be sued. The wife of the camp owner who died had to be helicoptered out one year because of flood waters. They certainly knew how dangerous the situation was.

But maybe you shouldn’t just use word of mouth when it comes to the safety of your kids. That’s the lesson.

I mean these are people who are outsourcing all their kids’ basic needs to other people from the time they’re born. They’re in the habit of choosing the highly-rated help and trusting the reputation

Are you a SAHP who never had a babysitter or a child in daycare? Do you home school your child? Most parents in this area do work outside the home these days, and most get childcare solutions by getting references from other parents, checking online reviews and getting background checks for people working in their home.

If you're pulling flood maps and checking the building inspection report of your kids' school, more power to you, but most people don't do this.

Wow, you need to do more research about the places you send your kids to. This area is known for flooding.

NP, most parents are not equipped to make this sort of evaluation and if you put the responsibility on them, more kids will continue to die in situations like this. The cabins should not have been located so close to the river, and the warning systems were inadequate.

Define "so close". What is the distance so that nothing unexpected will ever happen?

Exactly. Who could have expected this to heppen?

When you send your kids anywhere, you need to take any and all risks in consideration.
Especially somewhere like that.

Who's to say they didn't? Mathematically speaking, the chance of their kids getting swept away by a 100year flood that particular week was very, very small. This is different from say a home or landowner that needs to make that calulation over a longer time period- i.e., the chance of that piece of land experiencing a 100 year flood over say, the 30 years you live there is much higher.

But hopefully this serves as a wakeup call for everyone- not only in terms of where it makes sense to locate camps but also emergency/evacuation plans. My kids haven't attended an overnight camp yet but would I have thought to ask about those before this? Not sure I would have but I would now.

Anonymous wrote:If you were to read the lawsuits, it’s not just that issue of cabins being close to water. It’s the actions taken that night, after warnings issued. Moving equipment was prioritized over moving campers, ordering campers to shelter in place despite being a 1 minute walk from safety…lying to parents when the campers were known to have died, to cover up their mistakes.

Moving equipment is a red herring. Camps move canoes and equipment when it looks like any sign of flooding because they are close to the water. This doesn't mean the cabins (which are higher) always have to be evacuated too. Sheltering in place was initially deemed the safest plan so that they didn't get washed away outside. For the same reasons people are urged to stay home during flash floods in the area. The way they handled the communication that morning and afternoon reflected the disorganization and complete collapse of administrative functioning in the aftermath. The office was flooded as well.

None of the above excuses what happened, but I am providing some context to the petitions.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many parents dont investigate. They just assume someone is taking care of that stuff, even more so with rich people.

I’ll admit I’m guilty of this. DD spent a good chunk of her summers from ages 10-18 at a camp that I never saw much beyond the pickup/dropoff point, which looked lovely and very safe. Last year, she finally took us on a tour of the entire camp and I was shocked at how isolated and remote some of the areas were. I do think that they had excellent emergency plans in place, but I could also see how things could get dangerous really fast.

I mean, it was a camp for rich/upper middle class girls that has been around for generations. A lot of us go off of word of mouth recs from other parents rather than analyzing camp maps and flood risk data.

But yes the camp deserves to be sued. The wife of the camp owner who died had to be helicoptered out one year because of flood waters. They certainly knew how dangerous the situation was.

But maybe you shouldn’t just use word of mouth when it comes to the safety of your kids. That’s the lesson.

I mean these are people who are outsourcing all their kids’ basic needs to other people from the time they’re born. They’re in the habit of choosing the highly-rated help and trusting the reputation

Are you a SAHP who never had a babysitter or a child in daycare? Do you home school your child? Most parents in this area do work outside the home these days, and most get childcare solutions by getting references from other parents, checking online reviews and getting background checks for people working in their home.

If you're pulling flood maps and checking the building inspection report of your kids' school, more power to you, but most people don't do this.

Wow, you need to do more research about the places you send your kids to. This area is known for flooding.

NP, most parents are not equipped to make this sort of evaluation and if you put the responsibility on them, more kids will continue to die in situations like this. The cabins should not have been located so close to the river, and the warning systems were inadequate.

Define "so close". What is the distance so that nothing unexpected will ever happen?

Exactly. Who could have expected this to heppen?

FEMA apparently did, that’s what the flood maps are for

You think they nail it every time?

They nailed it this time. You asked who expected it - the risk was spelled out on the flood maps

You're a fool to think if you follow outdated FEMA maps you will be safe every time.

What a weird response, given the specifics of the flood we’re discussing in this thread. FEMA included parts of this camp in their flood plain. They were correct. The camp owners appealed and fought to have their camp excluded from the flood plain. Somehow their appeal was approved and they were excluded from the designated flood plain. There needs to be an investigation into the decision making process that approved the camp’s change in status. Was it based on accurate data? Inaccurate data? No data? Was someone paid off or doing a favor for an acquaintance?

You’re claiming the pp would have been a fool to follow the “outdated” FEMA flood map? The one that included the camp in the flood plain? Obviously you’re wrong.

If you were to read the lawsuits, it’s not just that issue of cabins being close to water. It’s the actions taken that night, after warnings issued. Moving equipment was prioritized over moving campers, ordering campers to shelter in place despite being a 1 minute walk from safety…lying to parents when the campers were known to have died, to cover up their mistakes.