Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm shocked and even in past years more than half of students are passing but not proficient in their Algebra 2 SOLs.

I'd say that means they are advancing too quickly. Yet the effect seems the same regardless of grade level of course. So it seems there are substantial cohorts of students advancing 2 years ahead when 1 was enough, and advancing 3 years ahead when 2 was enough.
Or TJ has up to half it's population being kids who "get" math quite but aren't great at understanding it.

Anyway, these 9th graders in Geometry, while older than previous geometry students, are doing just as well (slightly better even) as those students who advanced more quickly

This is not true. Even last year, 9th grade Alg II students scored 20% greater pass advanced rates than the 10th grade geometry students. Advanced students prior to Covid were scoring 90% pass advanced rates in 9th grade Algebra II, which is really impressive. And post-covid still close to 60% Pass advanced for 9th grade Algebra II students.

These new students are great students in their own right just different than previous admitted students. Admissions doesn’t even know the math level. Having nearly 100 geometry students in 9th speaks to the great work in equity the new process has achieved. And comparing them to the previous classes does them a disservice. It’s not about scores or grades, but experience.

is this what they taught you in the DEI class? post bunch of lies?

So the new students aren’t that good at tests or advanced in math and probably won’t have the same SAT scores? So what?

The so what, to me, is that TJ offers unique math and science classes that require a higher level of math. Those classes are what make the school special. If kids are entering the school and don't have the necessary math to access those special math and science classes then why are they there? I understand that there is a special cohort at TJ that can be great for kids who are more interested then the average kid, or event he above average kid, at STEM, but money has been placed into special labs and classrooms and specialized Teachers for a reason. By sending kids who cannot access those specialized opportunities we are undermining one of the major purpose of the school.

Someone earlier in the thread suggested that one approach might be that kids attending a MS Center school should have Algebra 1 H and Geometry H to be considered for TJ. There shouldn't be kids coming out of a MS Center without Geometry because there is a larger number of STEM focused kids and more kids with Algebra 1 and Geometry. There are enough kids with 4.0 GPAs and Algebra 1 and Geometry that those kids should be given priority for TJ because they can access the specialized classes at TJ.

At schools were there are fewer kids able to take Geometry in 8th grade you would default to the high GPA Algebra 1 H in 8th grade kids and that is fine. Those kids will benefit from the cohort at TJ. They would probably benefit from smaller math classes in Freshmen and Sophomore to firm up foundational skills that they have had fewer opportunities to practice at their ES and MS.

I do like that the new process removes some of the pressure for faster acceleration. I suspect that there were kids taking Geometry in the summer between 7th and 8th because they thought they had to have Algebra 2 in 8th grade in order to be competitive for TJ. 12-14 year olds don't need that type of pressure. I thin the new process can be tweaked so that it works better and achieves the goal of making the school more inclusive around the county.

Great post, I agree with the general idea... would need to think through the ramifications of having two standards, and could see at least two ways this could be implemented: Center MS requires Geo, non-Center requires Alg... or the 1.5% allocation per MS round requires Alg, and then the remaining at-large pool requires Geo. It's a balancing act, and I don't think the sole point of TJ is for kids to access classes beyond what is available at base. That may be one major component of what TJ offers and why it's important, but the problem is when folks treat that as if it is the sole and exclusive function/purpose.

Particularly agree with the bolded para. Aside from the pressure/mental health/culture concerns, it has also been noted that when kids get force-accelerated like that they often don't grasp the fundamentals as deeply, and eventually this can come back to bite them when they hit a wall in HS or College where their "good enough" grasp of the material and general test-taking acumen are no longer sufficient for success.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I suspect that the Algebra in 8th grade requirement is two-fold.

1) Placate the NAACP by making it easier for smart Black kids who are found at ES a bit later and don't have the money for enrichment have a better chance of attending TJ.
2) Decrease the math acceleration rat race to remove pressure from some kids because everyone has noticed the increased mental health concerns of MS and HS kids.

The algebra requirement did not change between the admissions processes. Only previously it was very rare to be accepted with algebra 1 in 8th grade, and now it is not.

Depends what you mean by "previously"; ~20 years ago over 50% the admitted class each year was taking Algebra 1 in 8th. If you mean the more recent past, then yes the Algebra 1 in 8th contingent had dropped below 10%, and was even below 5% by 2018 (Class of 2021).

My understanding is that shift over time towards a de facto standard of accelerating to Geometry in 8th is exactly one of the toxically competitive trends that they wanted to de-emphasize and get away from, just as the PP suggested in their 2nd point.

On PP's 1st point, I think if you omit the "Placate the NAACP" clause their sentence holds up better; the why behind it is not to placate that group, it's just because it's the more meritorious and equitable and right thing to do.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm shocked and even in past years more than half of students are passing but not proficient in their Algebra 2 SOLs.

I'd say that means they are advancing too quickly. Yet the effect seems the same regardless of grade level of course. So it seems there are substantial cohorts of students advancing 2 years ahead when 1 was enough, and advancing 3 years ahead when 2 was enough.
Or TJ has up to half it's population being kids who "get" math quite but aren't great at understanding it.

Anyway, these 9th graders in Geometry, while older than previous geometry students, are doing just as well (slightly better even) as those students who advanced more quickly

This is not true. Even last year, 9th grade Alg II students scored 20% greater pass advanced rates than the 10th grade geometry students. Advanced students prior to Covid were scoring 90% pass advanced rates in 9th grade Algebra II, which is really impressive. And post-covid still close to 60% Pass advanced for 9th grade Algebra II students.

These new students are great students in their own right just different than previous admitted students. Admissions doesn’t even know the math level. Having nearly 100 geometry students in 9th speaks to the great work in equity the new process has achieved. And comparing them to the previous classes does them a disservice. It’s not about scores or grades, but experience.

is this what they taught you in the DEI class? post bunch of lies?

So the new students aren’t that good at tests or advanced in math and probably won’t have the same SAT scores? So what?

The so what, to me, is that TJ offers unique math and science classes that require a higher level of math. Those classes are what make the school special. If kids are entering the school and don't have the necessary math to access those special math and science classes then why are they there? I understand that there is a special cohort at TJ that can be great for kids who are more interested then the average kid, or event he above average kid, at STEM, but money has been placed into special labs and classrooms and specialized Teachers for a reason. By sending kids who cannot access those specialized opportunities we are undermining one of the major purpose of the school.

Someone earlier in the thread suggested that one approach might be that kids attending a MS Center school should have Algebra 1 H and Geometry H to be considered for TJ. There shouldn't be kids coming out of a MS Center without Geometry because there is a larger number of STEM focused kids and more kids with Algebra 1 and Geometry. There are enough kids with 4.0 GPAs and Algebra 1 and Geometry that those kids should be given priority for TJ because they can access the specialized classes at TJ.

At schools were there are fewer kids able to take Geometry in 8th grade you would default to the high GPA Algebra 1 H in 8th grade kids and that is fine. Those kids will benefit from the cohort at TJ. They would probably benefit from smaller math classes in Freshmen and Sophomore to firm up foundational skills that they have had fewer opportunities to practice at their ES and MS.

I do like that the new process removes some of the pressure for faster acceleration. I suspect that there were kids taking Geometry in the summer between 7th and 8th because they thought they had to have Algebra 2 in 8th grade in order to be competitive for TJ. 12-14 year olds don't need that type of pressure. I thin the new process can be tweaked so that it works better and achieves the goal of making the school more inclusive around the county.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I suspect that the Algebra in 8th grade requirement is two-fold.

1) Placate the NAACP by making it easier for smart Black kids who are found at ES a bit later and don't have the money for enrichment have a better chance of attending TJ.
2) Decrease the math acceleration rat race to remove pressure from some kids because everyone has noticed the increased mental health concerns of MS and HS kids.

The algebra requirement did not change between the admissions processes. Only previously it was very rare to be accepted with algebra 1 in 8th grade, and now it is not.

Previously, there were fewer than a dozen algebra 1 students, and half of them left TJ during or at the end of freshman year. Now, there are about 120 kids being admitted with Algebra 1 Honors in 8th grade. There are now two teams being formed at TJ: a minor league of 120 kids starting with Algebra 1, and a major league of 430 kids starting with Geometry and beyond. The minor league begins with Math 1 and progresses towards the minimum requirement of Calc AB if they don't transfer back to their base school. A good number of these 430 kids are selected without a math evaluation of their Geometry/Algebra skills, but based on a simple essay. As a result, they struggle a lot just to earn a B or C starting with the Math 3, 4, and 5 precalculus courses.

TJ minor league & TJ major league

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm shocked and even in past years more than half of students are passing but not proficient in their Algebra 2 SOLs.

I'd say that means they are advancing too quickly. Yet the effect seems the same regardless of grade level of course. So it seems there are substantial cohorts of students advancing 2 years ahead when 1 was enough, and advancing 3 years ahead when 2 was enough.
Or TJ has up to half it's population being kids who "get" math quite but aren't great at understanding it.

Anyway, these 9th graders in Geometry, while older than previous geometry students, are doing just as well (slightly better even) as those students who advanced more quickly

This is not true. Even last year, 9th grade Alg II students scored 20% greater pass advanced rates than the 10th grade geometry students. Advanced students prior to Covid were scoring 90% pass advanced rates in 9th grade Algebra II, which is really impressive. And post-covid still close to 60% Pass advanced for 9th grade Algebra II students.

These new students are great students in their own right just different than previous admitted students. Admissions doesn’t even know the math level. Having nearly 100 geometry students in 9th speaks to the great work in equity the new process has achieved. And comparing them to the previous classes does them a disservice. It’s not about scores or grades, but experience.

is this what they taught you in the DEI class? post bunch of lies?

So the new students aren’t that good at tests or advanced in math and probably won’t have the same SAT scores? So what?

The "so what" part is actually pretty complex. If the "point" of TJ were to provide cool STEM opportunities to above average kids across the country, with the grading and expectations aligned with this new population and with expanded opportunities at the base schools/GMU for advanced kids who need them but are no longer getting in, then everything would be fine. I'd agree fully that even if the new students aren't that good at test or advanced in math, so what?

The problem right now is twofold. 1. If kids are being admitted just to score political points and tweak the demographics, but are also being set up to fail, that's a huge problem. FCPS seems to care much more about the optics than they do about each student's best outcome and best fit. If they're admitting kids who are unprepared, are they looking to either change the admissions process again? Or provide more opportunities in middle school at the lower SES schools to develop talent? Or make TJ a little easier so the admitted kids can succeed?

2. TJ was originally designed to provide acceleration to the kids way above and beyond who would otherwise run out of math and science courses. Now that they're not admitting the extremely advanced, are they seeking to expand the dual enrollment and virtual campus offerings to meet the needs of the kids remaining at the base school?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I suspect that the Algebra in 8th grade requirement is two-fold.

1) Placate the NAACP by making it easier for smart Black kids who are found at ES a bit later and don't have the money for enrichment have a better chance of attending TJ.
2) Decrease the math acceleration rat race to remove pressure from some kids because everyone has noticed the increased mental health concerns of MS and HS kids.

The algebra requirement did not change between the admissions processes. Only previously it was very rare to be accepted with algebra 1 in 8th grade, and now it is not.

Previously, there were fewer than a dozen algebra 1 students, and half of them left TJ during or at the end of freshman year. Now, there are about 120 kids being admitted with Algebra 1 Honors in 8th grade. There are now two teams being formed at TJ: a minor league of 120 kids starting with Algebra 1, and a major league of 430 kids starting with Geometry and beyond. The minor league begins with Math 1 and progresses towards the minimum requirement of Calc AB if they don't transfer back to their base school. A good number of these 430 kids are selected without a math evaluation of their Geometry/Algebra skills, but based on a simple essay. As a result, they struggle a lot just to earn a B or C starting with the Math 3, 4, and 5 precalculus courses.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm shocked and even in past years more than half of students are passing but not proficient in their Algebra 2 SOLs.

I'd say that means they are advancing too quickly. Yet the effect seems the same regardless of grade level of course. So it seems there are substantial cohorts of students advancing 2 years ahead when 1 was enough, and advancing 3 years ahead when 2 was enough.
Or TJ has up to half it's population being kids who "get" math quite but aren't great at understanding it.

Anyway, these 9th graders in Geometry, while older than previous geometry students, are doing just as well (slightly better even) as those students who advanced more quickly

This is not true. Even last year, 9th grade Alg II students scored 20% greater pass advanced rates than the 10th grade geometry students. Advanced students prior to Covid were scoring 90% pass advanced rates in 9th grade Algebra II, which is really impressive. And post-covid still close to 60% Pass advanced for 9th grade Algebra II students.

These new students are great students in their own right just different than previous admitted students. Admissions doesn’t even know the math level. Having nearly 100 geometry students in 9th speaks to the great work in equity the new process has achieved. And comparing them to the previous classes does them a disservice. It’s not about scores or grades, but experience.

If you are talking about TJ, there’s a reason why they do mediocre on the algebra 2 SOL. TJ gives it to them after the kids have only taken about 2/3 of the class. It is taught second semester as a one semester class. TJ doesn’t care two hoots how they do on it and haven’t taught them all of algebra 2 at that point. They don’t even tell kids in advance they are giving it to them. No one cares because by June they have blown past the standards.

Anonymous wrote:
We have to stop expecting that schools can magically fill the gaps because they cannot. Title 1 schools have smaller classes, more Teachers, more specialists, and free summer school. I am not sure what else you think they can do. And the answer is not to hold back the kids whose parents read to them and introduced them to academics at a younger age.

I know of one high schooler who wanted to start a STEM activity at a Title 1 school. Started asking around summertime. The administration could have done more in trying to recruit kids to the club. Particularly sending out a notice to parents, and to the top math students. Instead months late, the high schooler had one student for the club. This school had a 6th grader taking algebra who likely would have wanted to be in the club, but not much attempt was made by the administration to fill this club. Perhaps next year will be different.

Anonymous wrote:

I suspect that the Algebra in 8th grade requirement is two-fold.

1) Placate the NAACP by making it easier for smart Black kids who are found at ES a bit later and don't have the money for enrichment have a better chance of attending TJ.
2) Decrease the math acceleration rat race to remove pressure from some kids because everyone has noticed the increased mental health concerns of MS and HS kids.

The algebra requirement did not change between the admissions processes. Only previously it was very rare to be accepted with algebra 1 in 8th grade, and now it is not.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm shocked and even in past years more than half of students are passing but not proficient in their Algebra 2 SOLs.

I'd say that means they are advancing too quickly. Yet the effect seems the same regardless of grade level of course. So it seems there are substantial cohorts of students advancing 2 years ahead when 1 was enough, and advancing 3 years ahead when 2 was enough.
Or TJ has up to half it's population being kids who "get" math quite but aren't great at understanding it.

Anyway, these 9th graders in Geometry, while older than previous geometry students, are doing just as well (slightly better even) as those students who advanced more quickly

This is not true. Even last year, 9th grade Alg II students scored 20% greater pass advanced rates than the 10th grade geometry students. Advanced students prior to Covid were scoring 90% pass advanced rates in 9th grade Algebra II, which is really impressive. And post-covid still close to 60% Pass advanced for 9th grade Algebra II students.

These new students are great students in their own right just different than previous admitted students. Admissions doesn’t even know the math level. Having nearly 100 geometry students in 9th speaks to the great work in equity the new process has achieved. And comparing them to the previous classes does them a disservice. It’s not about scores or grades, but experience.

is this what they taught you in the DEI class? post bunch of lies?

So the new students aren’t that good at tests or advanced in math and probably won’t have the same SAT scores? So what?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Six entire FCPS middle schools are being deprived of basic grade-level math education, yet the proposed solution is to potentially force one or two students into TJ bottom tier, that too hoping less-informed parents would take the bait?

The idea here is if one or two are put in TJ the others will find them missing, and ask where they are? Guess what the answer would be? At TJ, duh! And that's how the entire six schools will be motivated to learn math by themselves.

Don't quote the troll making up nonsense.

Anonymous wrote:
Six entire FCPS middle schools are being deprived of basic grade-level math education, yet the proposed solution is to potentially force one or two students into TJ bottom tier, that too hoping less-informed parents would take the bait?

The idea here is if one or two are put in TJ the others will find them missing, and ask where they are? Guess what the answer would be? At TJ, duh! And that's how the entire six schools will be motivated to learn math by themselves.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm shocked and even in past years more than half of students are passing but not proficient in their Algebra 2 SOLs.

I'd say that means they are advancing too quickly. Yet the effect seems the same regardless of grade level of course. So it seems there are substantial cohorts of students advancing 2 years ahead when 1 was enough, and advancing 3 years ahead when 2 was enough.
Or TJ has up to half it's population being kids who "get" math quite but aren't great at understanding it.

Anyway, these 9th graders in Geometry, while older than previous geometry students, are doing just as well (slightly better even) as those students who advanced more quickly

This is not true. Even last year, 9th grade Alg II students scored 20% greater pass advanced rates than the 10th grade geometry students. Advanced students prior to Covid were scoring 90% pass advanced rates in 9th grade Algebra II, which is really impressive. And post-covid still close to 60% Pass advanced for 9th grade Algebra II students.

These new students are great students in their own right just different than previous admitted students. Admissions doesn’t even know the math level. Having nearly 100 geometry students in 9th speaks to the great work in equity the new process has achieved. And comparing them to the previous classes does them a disservice. It’s not about scores or grades, but experience.

is this what they taught you in the DEI class? post bunch of lies?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm shocked and even in past years more than half of students are passing but not proficient in their Algebra 2 SOLs.

I'd say that means they are advancing too quickly. Yet the effect seems the same regardless of grade level of course. So it seems there are substantial cohorts of students advancing 2 years ahead when 1 was enough, and advancing 3 years ahead when 2 was enough.
Or TJ has up to half it's population being kids who "get" math quite but aren't great at understanding it.

Anyway, these 9th graders in Geometry, while older than previous geometry students, are doing just as well (slightly better even) as those students who advanced more quickly

This is not true. Even last year, 9th grade Alg II students scored 20% greater pass advanced rates than the 10th grade geometry students. Advanced students prior to Covid were scoring 90% pass advanced rates in 9th grade Algebra II, which is really impressive. And post-covid still close to 60% Pass advanced for 9th grade Algebra II students.

These new students are great students in their own right just different than previous admitted students. Admissions doesn’t even know the math level. Having nearly 100 geometry students in 9th speaks to the great work in equity the new process has achieved. And comparing them to the previous classes does them a disservice. It’s not about scores or grades, but experience.

You're right; I apologize.
"Proficient" is the lower level of "pass" . The unreported category is "advanced", which is higher level.

This is why reports shouldn't leave any categories out, even if it's possible to recompute it from other data.

Anonymous wrote:I'm shocked and even in past years more than half of students are passing but not proficient in their Algebra 2 SOLs.

I'd say that means they are advancing too quickly. Yet the effect seems the same regardless of grade level of course. So it seems there are substantial cohorts of students advancing 2 years ahead when 1 was enough, and advancing 3 years ahead when 2 was enough.
Or TJ has up to half it's population being kids who "get" math quite but aren't great at understanding it.

Anyway, these 9th graders in Geometry, while older than previous geometry students, are doing just as well (slightly better even) as those students who advanced more quickly

This is not true. Even last year, 9th grade Alg II students scored 20% greater pass advanced rates than the 10th grade geometry students. Advanced students prior to Covid were scoring 90% pass advanced rates in 9th grade Algebra II, which is really impressive. And post-covid still close to 60% Pass advanced for 9th grade Algebra II students.

These new students are great students in their own right just different than previous admitted students. Admissions doesn’t even know the math level. Having nearly 100 geometry students in 9th speaks to the great work in equity the new process has achieved. And comparing them to the previous classes does them a disservice. It’s not about scores or grades, but experience.