Anonymous
01/16/2024 09:49
Subject: NYT Article on Open Marriage
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Yeah, but one of the major tenets of marriage is "forsaking all others."
It's just a way to feel good about cheating. Don't take it too seriously.
lol, it’s not cheating if both partners agree to it.
It’s worse than cheating if one partner is pressured into it.
Everyone has to stand up for what they want in a marriage. There’s a door if you want to leave.
I mean, generally healthy marriages are not approached like business negotiations between adversaries.
The fact that that’s what you took away from my statement tells me you have a closed mind about this. The point is, everyone has their limits. If you allow someone to push yours, then you’re complicit in that. But some people love being victims. Shrug.
The fact that you cannot understand why what you wrote is so dysfunctional says it all. It also really seems to indicate that the power play of “negotiating boundaries” is what some polyamorous people are really into. Meanwhile, healthy relationships (of all types) are built of empathy and mutual deference, not asserting your own wants at every point and making your partner “stand up” for themselves constantly.
NP. Agree. It's one thing to tell your partner that you have unmet needs and you want to work with them to try to have those needs met with them. That's not putting the union at risk. It might be putting the status quo at risk, but for a lot of LTRs the status quo is not sustainable.
The moment you say to your partner "I want to open up" you are changing it forever. There is no going back. The union is different from that point forward.
DP but really? I wouldn’t feel that way at all if my DH came to me and said he wanted to open it up. That’s just a question. Like sometimes he comes to me and says “maybe we should move to an apartment in the city” and that doesn’t mean we will, although we could, it’s just the beginning of a conversation about how we’re both doing.
To me an affair is a betrayal. Talking about how you maybe want one and want to see if there’s an okay to do it within the marriage isn’t a betrayal at all. Even if the answer is a strong no.
OH FFS, wanted to move to the city and wanting to sleep with someone else is in no way, shape or form the same thing. Your spouse has basically copped to fantasizing about others because you’re not satisfactory in some way. You think that’s the same as “hey, maybe we as a unit should think about living in the city”???
You think an affair is such a betrayal but not if your partner tells you first. I suspect your reply will be “Well, I can always say no”. And yes, you can and then walk around with the knowledge that your spouse wants other people and the only thing stopping him is you, you who apparently wasn’t enough in the first place. I’m sure your union will be totally exactly the same as it was before! What are you, a cyborg?
At best, maybe PP means that she would understand what he was saying was a fantasy and wouldn’t be threatened?
“Hey, can we discuss opening up the marriage because I want to have sex with other people (that I probably already have my eye on) is not exactly the same as “You know, I really think I’d like if you gave me a hall pass for Margot Robbie.”
So you’d rather be cheated on. Noted. Ignorance is bliss, I guess!
Anonymous
01/16/2024 09:46
Subject: NYT Article on Open Marriage
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Yeah, but one of the major tenets of marriage is "forsaking all others."
It's just a way to feel good about cheating. Don't take it too seriously.
lol, it’s not cheating if both partners agree to it.
It’s worse than cheating if one partner is pressured into it.
Everyone has to stand up for what they want in a marriage. There’s a door if you want to leave.
I mean, generally healthy marriages are not approached like business negotiations between adversaries.
The fact that that’s what you took away from my statement tells me you have a closed mind about this. The point is, everyone has their limits. If you allow someone to push yours, then you’re complicit in that. But some people love being victims. Shrug.
The fact that you cannot understand why what you wrote is so dysfunctional says it all. It also really seems to indicate that the power play of “negotiating boundaries” is what some polyamorous people are really into. Meanwhile, healthy relationships (of all types) are built of empathy and mutual deference, not asserting your own wants at every point and making your partner “stand up” for themselves constantly.
NP. Agree. It's one thing to tell your partner that you have unmet needs and you want to work with them to try to have those needs met with them. That's not putting the union at risk. It might be putting the status quo at risk, but for a lot of LTRs the status quo is not sustainable.
The moment you say to your partner "I want to open up" you are changing it forever. There is no going back. The union is different from that point forward.
There’s no way to have the conversation without having the conversation.
Sure there is. In a good relationship you’d already know or intuit your partner’s willingness to try something like this. And your sexual relationship would not have gotten to the point where you feel like you have “unmet needs.”
That’s where the writer was blindsided. She went to her husband trying to be honest and he found the opening he wanted. It sounds like she didn’t know what this would truly mean. His worrying about coercion is right on the nose. Because while she had agency, it sounds like she was, in fact, coerced.
Anonymous
01/16/2024 09:41
Subject: NYT Article on Open Marriage
Anonymous wrote:Just divorce if you want to sleep around.
Amen.
This is what I am struggling with understanding “open marriage”
Are you really self-absorbing that you want the best of both world: stability and security in marriages yet having fun messing around to find excitement? Such a hypocrite.
And then try to legitimize it that, if it is normal. My ex-husband told me that he once a while had a crush with random girls and he wanted my emotional support by listening to him venting it out how much crush he has on the girl in question. I was like WTF? I divorced him after finding out that he was running after his own graduate student who is younger than his daughter and he is a Board of Regent’s University Distinguished Professor. Laugh Out Loud - education doesn’t cure narcissistic disorder.
Have I ran into one of
Anonymous
01/16/2024 09:35
Subject: NYT Article on Open Marriage
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Yeah, but one of the major tenets of marriage is "forsaking all others."
It's just a way to feel good about cheating. Don't take it too seriously.
lol, it’s not cheating if both partners agree to it.
It’s worse than cheating if one partner is pressured into it.
Everyone has to stand up for what they want in a marriage. There’s a door if you want to leave.
I mean, generally healthy marriages are not approached like business negotiations between adversaries.
The fact that that’s what you took away from my statement tells me you have a closed mind about this. The point is, everyone has their limits. If you allow someone to push yours, then you’re complicit in that. But some people love being victims. Shrug.
The fact that you cannot understand why what you wrote is so dysfunctional says it all. It also really seems to indicate that the power play of “negotiating boundaries” is what some polyamorous people are really into. Meanwhile, healthy relationships (of all types) are built of empathy and mutual deference, not asserting your own wants at every point and making your partner “stand up” for themselves constantly.
NP. Agree. It's one thing to tell your partner that you have unmet needs and you want to work with them to try to have those needs met with them. That's not putting the union at risk. It might be putting the status quo at risk, but for a lot of LTRs the status quo is not sustainable.
The moment you say to your partner "I want to open up" you are changing it forever. There is no going back. The union is different from that point forward.
DP but really? I wouldn’t feel that way at all if my DH came to me and said he wanted to open it up. That’s just a question. Like sometimes he comes to me and says “maybe we should move to an apartment in the city” and that doesn’t mean we will, although we could, it’s just the beginning of a conversation about how we’re both doing.
To me an affair is a betrayal. Talking about how you maybe want one and want to see if there’s an okay to do it within the marriage isn’t a betrayal at all. Even if the answer is a strong no.
OH FFS, wanted to move to the city and wanting to sleep with someone else is in no way, shape or form the same thing. Your spouse has basically copped to fantasizing about others because you’re not satisfactory in some way. You think that’s the same as “hey, maybe we as a unit should think about living in the city”???
You think an affair is such a betrayal but not if your partner tells you first. I suspect your reply will be “Well, I can always say no”. And yes, you can and then walk around with the knowledge that your spouse wants other people and the only thing stopping him is you, you who apparently wasn’t enough in the first place. I’m sure your union will be totally exactly the same as it was before! What are you, a cyborg?
At best, maybe PP means that she would understand what he was saying was a fantasy and wouldn’t be threatened?
“Hey, can we discuss opening up the marriage because I want to have sex with other people (that I probably already have my eye on) is not exactly the same as “You know, I really think I’d like if you gave me a hall pass for Margot Robbie.”
Anonymous
01/16/2024 09:33
Subject: NYT Article on Open Marriage
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Yeah, but one of the major tenets of marriage is "forsaking all others."
It's just a way to feel good about cheating. Don't take it too seriously.
lol, it’s not cheating if both partners agree to it.
It’s worse than cheating if one partner is pressured into it.
Everyone has to stand up for what they want in a marriage. There’s a door if you want to leave.
I mean, generally healthy marriages are not approached like business negotiations between adversaries.
The fact that that’s what you took away from my statement tells me you have a closed mind about this. The point is, everyone has their limits. If you allow someone to push yours, then you’re complicit in that. But some people love being victims. Shrug.
The fact that you cannot understand why what you wrote is so dysfunctional says it all. It also really seems to indicate that the power play of “negotiating boundaries” is what some polyamorous people are really into. Meanwhile, healthy relationships (of all types) are built of empathy and mutual deference, not asserting your own wants at every point and making your partner “stand up” for themselves constantly.
NP. Agree. It's one thing to tell your partner that you have unmet needs and you want to work with them to try to have those needs met with them. That's not putting the union at risk. It might be putting the status quo at risk, but for a lot of LTRs the status quo is not sustainable.
The moment you say to your partner "I want to open up" you are changing it forever. There is no going back. The union is different from that point forward.
DP but really? I wouldn’t feel that way at all if my DH came to me and said he wanted to open it up. That’s just a question. Like sometimes he comes to me and says “maybe we should move to an apartment in the city” and that doesn’t mean we will, although we could, it’s just the beginning of a conversation about how we’re both doing.
To me an affair is a betrayal. Talking about how you maybe want one and want to see if there’s an okay to do it within the marriage isn’t a betrayal at all. Even if the answer is a strong no.
OH FFS, wanted to move to the city and wanting to sleep with someone else is in no way, shape or form the same thing. Your spouse has basically copped to fantasizing about others because you’re not satisfactory in some way. You think that’s the same as “hey, maybe we as a unit should think about living in the city”???
You think an affair is such a betrayal but not if your partner tells you first. I suspect your reply will be “Well, I can always say no”. And yes, you can and then walk around with the knowledge that your spouse wants other people and the only thing stopping him is you, you who apparently wasn’t enough in the first place. I’m sure your union will be totally exactly the same as it was before! What are you, a cyborg?
At best, maybe PP means that she would understand what he was saying was a fantasy and wouldn’t be threatened?
Anonymous
01/16/2024 09:31
Subject: NYT Article on Open Marriage
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Yeah, but one of the major tenets of marriage is "forsaking all others."
It's just a way to feel good about cheating. Don't take it too seriously.
lol, it’s not cheating if both partners agree to it.
It’s worse than cheating if one partner is pressured into it.
Everyone has to stand up for what they want in a marriage. There’s a door if you want to leave.
I mean, generally healthy marriages are not approached like business negotiations between adversaries.
The fact that that’s what you took away from my statement tells me you have a closed mind about this. The point is, everyone has their limits. If you allow someone to push yours, then you’re complicit in that. But some people love being victims. Shrug.
The fact that you cannot understand why what you wrote is so dysfunctional says it all. It also really seems to indicate that the power play of “negotiating boundaries” is what some polyamorous people are really into. Meanwhile, healthy relationships (of all types) are built of empathy and mutual deference, not asserting your own wants at every point and making your partner “stand up” for themselves constantly.
NP. Agree. It's one thing to tell your partner that you have unmet needs and you want to work with them to try to have those needs met with them. That's not putting the union at risk. It might be putting the status quo at risk, but for a lot of LTRs the status quo is not sustainable.
The moment you say to your partner "I want to open up" you are changing it forever. There is no going back. The union is different from that point forward.
DP but really? I wouldn’t feel that way at all if my DH came to me and said he wanted to open it up. That’s just a question. Like sometimes he comes to me and says “maybe we should move to an apartment in the city” and that doesn’t mean we will, although we could, it’s just the beginning of a conversation about how we’re both doing.
To me an affair is a betrayal. Talking about how you maybe want one and want to see if there’s an okay to do it within the marriage isn’t a betrayal at all. Even if the answer is a strong no.
OH FFS, wanted to move to the city and wanting to sleep with someone else is in no way, shape or form the same thing. Your spouse has basically copped to fantasizing about others because you’re not satisfactory in some way. You think that’s the same as “hey, maybe we as a unit should think about living in the city”???
You think an affair is such a betrayal but not if your partner tells you first. I suspect your reply will be “Well, I can always say no”. And yes, you can and then walk around with the knowledge that your spouse wants other people and the only thing stopping him is you, you who apparently wasn’t enough in the first place. I’m sure your union will be totally exactly the same as it was before! What are you, a cyborg?
Anonymous
01/16/2024 09:04
Subject: NYT Article on Open Marriage
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Yeah, but one of the major tenets of marriage is "forsaking all others."
It's just a way to feel good about cheating. Don't take it too seriously.
lol, it’s not cheating if both partners agree to it.
It’s worse than cheating if one partner is pressured into it.
Everyone has to stand up for what they want in a marriage. There’s a door if you want to leave.
I mean, generally healthy marriages are not approached like business negotiations between adversaries.
The fact that that’s what you took away from my statement tells me you have a closed mind about this. The point is, everyone has their limits. If you allow someone to push yours, then you’re complicit in that. But some people love being victims. Shrug.
The fact that you cannot understand why what you wrote is so dysfunctional says it all. It also really seems to indicate that the power play of “negotiating boundaries” is what some polyamorous people are really into. Meanwhile, healthy relationships (of all types) are built of empathy and mutual deference, not asserting your own wants at every point and making your partner “stand up” for themselves constantly.
NP. Agree. It's one thing to tell your partner that you have unmet needs and you want to work with them to try to have those needs met with them. That's not putting the union at risk. It might be putting the status quo at risk, but for a lot of LTRs the status quo is not sustainable.
The moment you say to your partner "I want to open up" you are changing it forever. There is no going back. The union is different from that point forward.
DP but really? I wouldn’t feel that way at all if my DH came to me and said he wanted to open it up. That’s just a question. Like sometimes he comes to me and says “maybe we should move to an apartment in the city” and that doesn’t mean we will, although we could, it’s just the beginning of a conversation about how we’re both doing.
To me an affair is a betrayal. Talking about how you maybe want one and want to see if there’s an okay to do it within the marriage isn’t a betrayal at all. Even if the answer is a strong no.
You don’t seem to understand how 99% of people would feel if their spouse of of nowhere asked for permission to sleep around.
Anonymous
01/16/2024 09:03
Subject: NYT Article on Open Marriage
Just divorce if you want to sleep around.
Anonymous
01/16/2024 09:02
Subject: NYT Article on Open Marriage
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Yeah, but one of the major tenets of marriage is "forsaking all others."
It's just a way to feel good about cheating. Don't take it too seriously.
lol, it’s not cheating if both partners agree to it.
It’s worse than cheating if one partner is pressured into it.
Everyone has to stand up for what they want in a marriage. There’s a door if you want to leave.
I mean, generally healthy marriages are not approached like business negotiations between adversaries.
The fact that that’s what you took away from my statement tells me you have a closed mind about this. The point is, everyone has their limits. If you allow someone to push yours, then you’re complicit in that. But some people love being victims. Shrug.
The fact that you cannot understand why what you wrote is so dysfunctional says it all. It also really seems to indicate that the power play of “negotiating boundaries” is what some polyamorous people are really into. Meanwhile, healthy relationships (of all types) are built of empathy and mutual deference, not asserting your own wants at every point and making your partner “stand up” for themselves constantly.
NP. Agree. It's one thing to tell your partner that you have unmet needs and you want to work with them to try to have those needs met with them. That's not putting the union at risk. It might be putting the status quo at risk, but for a lot of LTRs the status quo is not sustainable.
The moment you say to your partner "I want to open up" you are changing it forever. There is no going back. The union is different from that point forward.
DP but really? I wouldn’t feel that way at all if my DH came to me and said he wanted to open it up. That’s just a question. Like sometimes he comes to me and says “maybe we should move to an apartment in the city” and that doesn’t mean we will, although we could, it’s just the beginning of a conversation about how we’re both doing.
To me an affair is a betrayal. Talking about how you maybe want one and want to see if there’s an okay to do it within the marriage isn’t a betrayal at all. Even if the answer is a strong no.
Anonymous
01/16/2024 09:02
Subject: NYT Article on Open Marriage
Anonymous wrote:I grew up in the seventies as a small child surrounded by couples with "open" marriages. It was a lot more like wife swapping, really. A lot of people did get hurt. Some parents I know even got AIDS... but that wouldn't be my concern now, my concern now is, marriage and kids works as a partnership. No matter how stable you think your open marriage is, it's never that. Without the binary of just having a self and an other, there's a lot more to balance. I also grew up in the seventies as a small child surrounded by people who couldn't stop talking about how progressive and wonderful and cool they were for having their open marriages... meanwhile we kids were thrown together and torn apart by whom our parents were or weren't sleeping with. Nothing like telling the school counselor, "Beth isn't my mom, she's just my dad's girlfriend. But yeah, she has permission to get me from school."
Your post makes me sad. I'm sorry you did not have stability in your home life and parents who prioritized their marriage and their children. I hope you find peace despite what you went through.
Anonymous
01/16/2024 09:01
Subject: NYT Article on Open Marriage
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Yeah, but one of the major tenets of marriage is "forsaking all others."
It's just a way to feel good about cheating. Don't take it too seriously.
lol, it’s not cheating if both partners agree to it.
It’s worse than cheating if one partner is pressured into it.
Everyone has to stand up for what they want in a marriage. There’s a door if you want to leave.
How can you be so obtuse to the fact that changing the terms of the marriage mid-stride and giving your spouse an ultimatum of “take it or get a divorce” is incredibly toxic, and an abuse of power?
This is exactly the callous sociopathy that one is unsurprised to find at the “top” of the poly hierarchy.
Anonymous
01/16/2024 08:58
Subject: NYT Article on Open Marriage
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Yeah, but one of the major tenets of marriage is "forsaking all others."
It's just a way to feel good about cheating. Don't take it too seriously.
lol, it’s not cheating if both partners agree to it.
It’s worse than cheating if one partner is pressured into it.
Everyone has to stand up for what they want in a marriage. There’s a door if you want to leave.
I mean, generally healthy marriages are not approached like business negotiations between adversaries.
The fact that that’s what you took away from my statement tells me you have a closed mind about this. The point is, everyone has their limits. If you allow someone to push yours, then you’re complicit in that. But some people love being victims. Shrug.
The fact that you cannot understand why what you wrote is so dysfunctional says it all. It also really seems to indicate that the power play of “negotiating boundaries” is what some polyamorous people are really into. Meanwhile, healthy relationships (of all types) are built of empathy and mutual deference, not asserting your own wants at every point and making your partner “stand up” for themselves constantly.
NP. Agree. It's one thing to tell your partner that you have unmet needs and you want to work with them to try to have those needs met with them. That's not putting the union at risk. It might be putting the status quo at risk, but for a lot of LTRs the status quo is not sustainable.
The moment you say to your partner "I want to open up" you are changing it forever. There is no going back. The union is different from that point forward.
There’s no way to have the conversation without having the conversation.
Sure there is. In a good relationship you’d already know or intuit your partner’s willingness to try something like this. And your sexual relationship would not have gotten to the point where you feel like you have “unmet needs.”
Anonymous
01/16/2024 08:51
Subject: NYT Article on Open Marriage
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Yeah, but one of the major tenets of marriage is "forsaking all others."
It's just a way to feel good about cheating. Don't take it too seriously.
lol, it’s not cheating if both partners agree to it.
It’s worse than cheating if one partner is pressured into it.
Everyone has to stand up for what they want in a marriage. There’s a door if you want to leave.
I mean, generally healthy marriages are not approached like business negotiations between adversaries.
The fact that that’s what you took away from my statement tells me you have a closed mind about this. The point is, everyone has their limits. If you allow someone to push yours, then you’re complicit in that. But some people love being victims. Shrug.
The fact that you cannot understand why what you wrote is so dysfunctional says it all. It also really seems to indicate that the power play of “negotiating boundaries” is what some polyamorous people are really into. Meanwhile, healthy relationships (of all types) are built of empathy and mutual deference, not asserting your own wants at every point and making your partner “stand up” for themselves constantly.
NP. Agree. It's one thing to tell your partner that you have unmet needs and you want to work with them to try to have those needs met with them. That's not putting the union at risk. It might be putting the status quo at risk, but for a lot of LTRs the status quo is not sustainable.
The moment you say to your partner "I want to open up" you are changing it forever. There is no going back. The union is different from that point forward.
There’s no way to have the conversation without having the conversation.
Anonymous
01/16/2024 08:38
Subject: NYT Article on Open Marriage
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Yeah, but one of the major tenets of marriage is "forsaking all others."
It's just a way to feel good about cheating. Don't take it too seriously.
lol, it’s not cheating if both partners agree to it.
It’s worse than cheating if one partner is pressured into it.
Everyone has to stand up for what they want in a marriage. There’s a door if you want to leave.
I mean, generally healthy marriages are not approached like business negotiations between adversaries.
The fact that that’s what you took away from my statement tells me you have a closed mind about this. The point is, everyone has their limits. If you allow someone to push yours, then you’re complicit in that. But some people love being victims. Shrug.
The fact that you cannot understand why what you wrote is so dysfunctional says it all. It also really seems to indicate that the power play of “negotiating boundaries” is what some polyamorous people are really into. Meanwhile, healthy relationships (of all types) are built of empathy and mutual deference, not asserting your own wants at every point and making your partner “stand up” for themselves constantly.
NP. Agree. It's one thing to tell your partner that you have unmet needs and you want to work with them to try to have those needs met with them. That's not putting the union at risk. It might be putting the status quo at risk, but for a lot of LTRs the status quo is not sustainable.
The moment you say to your partner "I want to open up" you are changing it forever. There is no going back. The union is different from that point forward.
Anonymous
01/16/2024 08:33
Subject: NYT Article on Open Marriage
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Yeah, but one of the major tenets of marriage is "forsaking all others."
It's just a way to feel good about cheating. Don't take it too seriously.
lol, it’s not cheating if both partners agree to it.
It’s worse than cheating if one partner is pressured into it.
Everyone has to stand up for what they want in a marriage. There’s a door if you want to leave.
I mean, generally healthy marriages are not approached like business negotiations between adversaries.
The fact that that’s what you took away from my statement tells me you have a closed mind about this. The point is, everyone has their limits. If you allow someone to push yours, then you’re complicit in that. But some people love being victims. Shrug.
The fact that you cannot understand why what you wrote is so dysfunctional says it all. It also really seems to indicate that the power play of “negotiating boundaries” is what some polyamorous people are really into. Meanwhile, healthy relationships (of all types) are built of empathy and mutual deference, not asserting your own wants at every point and making your partner “stand up” for themselves constantly.