Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Test optional should stay. Submit if you wish and the school will consider it. Don't submit if you wish and the school will not consider it. Simple. You don't need to get your knickers all tied up in knots just because your DC scored high on the STA/ACT. Submit your score but know that your DC's application will be viewed in its entirety.
GPA is the most important indicator by far because it shows the work that the student puts in all four years of high school.
GPA can be easily skewed by cheating, which is very common in most if not all high schools.
SATs can be improved but not gamed. A 1200 kid is not going to test prep there was to a 1500.
You know that colleges have been in the admissions business a long time right? You don't think they have devised a way to compare GPA and rigor across schools? They have regional reps that know the quality of high schools and they have a long track record of data to assess students coming from the high schools. Colleges are not stupid. They all indicate in their common data sets that the GPA is the most important indicator. Ignore that at your peril. And go on some misguided attack on TO.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Test optional should stay. Submit if you wish and the school will consider it. Don't submit if you wish and the school will not consider it. Simple. You don't need to get your knickers all tied up in knots just because your DC scored high on the STA/ACT. Submit your score but know that your DC's application will be viewed in its entirety.
GPA is the most important indicator by far because it shows the work that the student puts in all four years of high school.
GPA can be easily skewed by cheating, which is very common in most if not all high schools.
SATs can be improved but not gamed. A 1200 kid is not going to test prep there was to a 1500.
You know that colleges have been in the admissions business a long time right? You don't think they have devised a way to compare GPA and rigor across schools? They have regional reps that know the quality of high schools and they have a long track record of data to assess students coming from the high schools. Colleges are not stupid. They all indicate in their common data sets that the GPA is the most important indicator. Ignore that at your peril. And go on some misguided attack on TO.
They indicate that because that's all they have now that test scores are off the table.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:^ that was from my eye-balling of the graph in the NYT article. No score applicants fell around 1300 SAT applicants, as far as college GPA for the schools in the study, which I believe were about 15-20 elite colleges.
Oh actually, it’s a lot lower than 25th percentile. 1300 is 1/4 of the way from 1200 to 1600 (the range), but I wasn’t paying attention to the density of the datapoints. Probably closer to 90% of scores were higher than 1300 for those schools during that time period. But that’s where the no-test applicants landed as far as their success in college.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:HS students should get one bite at the apple. ACT, SAT, their choice. But one at bat. That’s it. This super scoring horseshit is the one of the most bizarre developments since I was applying to college hundreds of years ago.
Here comes the one-and-done-1600 mom pushing her kid's interests. If her kid hadn't lucked out that day, she'd be singing a different tune.
Anonymous wrote:HS students should get one bite at the apple. ACT, SAT, their choice. But one at bat. That’s it. This super scoring horseshit is the one of the most bizarre developments since I was applying to college hundreds of years ago.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Test optional should stay. Submit if you wish and the school will consider it. Don't submit if you wish and the school will not consider it. Simple. You don't need to get your knickers all tied up in knots just because your DC scored high on the STA/ACT. Submit your score but know that your DC's application will be viewed in its entirety.
GPA is the most important indicator by far because it shows the work that the student puts in all four years of high school.
GPA can be easily skewed by cheating, which is very common in most if not all high schools.
SATs can be improved but not gamed. A 1200 kid is not going to test prep there was to a 1500.
You know that colleges have been in the admissions business a long time right? You don't think they have devised a way to compare GPA and rigor across schools? They have regional reps that know the quality of high schools and they have a long track record of data to assess students coming from the high schools. Colleges are not stupid. They all indicate in their common data sets that the GPA is the most important indicator. Ignore that at your peril. And go on some misguided attack on TO.
They indicate that because that's all they have now that test scores are off the table.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:There is other excellent research that questions the ability if test scores to determine acumen or college success. TO is a good approach -- consider test scores if you want to submit. So, that rural kid w/unknown school can use that as part of their portfolio.
So tired of people trying to make this a thing again and again. If you invested in enrichment to yield high scores and expect that to mean more than it does (looking at you, mag parents who have kids submit SAT and ACT), that's on you. How about you focus on helping your kid present the best portfolio they can.
What would that be? Essay written by consultants, EC that is set up by parents or money, etc...If we are measuring students academic performance GPA, SAT would be reflection of students caliber.
It is often said "don't submit if your score is under the 50th percentile".
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Test optional should stay. Submit if you wish and the school will consider it. Don't submit if you wish and the school will not consider it. Simple. You don't need to get your knickers all tied up in knots just because your DC scored high on the STA/ACT. Submit your score but know that your DC's application will be viewed in its entirety.
GPA is the most important indicator by far because it shows the work that the student puts in all four years of high school.
GPA can be easily skewed by cheating, which is very common in most if not all high schools.
SATs can be improved but not gamed. A 1200 kid is not going to test prep there was to a 1500.
You know that colleges have been in the admissions business a long time right? You don't think they have devised a way to compare GPA and rigor across schools? They have regional reps that know the quality of high schools and they have a long track record of data to assess students coming from the high schools. Colleges are not stupid. They all indicate in their common data sets that the GPA is the most important indicator. Ignore that at your peril. And go on some misguided attack on TO.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:DP here. This is a good article.
For those of you commenting without reading the article, I highly recommend you read it first. The reporter mentions multiple recent studies that all show the same thing - test scores are more predictive of future college success than high school grades.
Most college admissions officials agree that test scores should be used as one factor towards admissions but they are scared of political backlash if they bring test scores back.
Yes, gpa is generally more predictive than test scores alone but not as predictive as gpa plus test scores. Further, gpa has become less and less predictive as grades have become inflated. Source: UC system and Purdue research.
My annoyance is that my DD studied hard and did really well on the SAT - similar to her sisters that got into top 20 schools. But, we went TO b/c the scores that are now reported are much higher as no one is reporting. We agonized over this decision. She lost a valuable side to her application. And, I think every year scores will continue to go up as those on the 25-50% will no longer report. Just a horrible decision.
Hard to guess why one wouldn't submit a strong score, even if it's on the low end for the school. Sorry to be critical of this decision-making, but personally, I think that's a mistake. Submit and then let the chips fall, rather than let the college assume the score was worse.
Because the average scores are so high now that you need a near perfect score to submit.
Of course we cannot know for sure, but TO colleges say they do not assume the scores were worse if not submitted. Thats what makes TO so wrong to me, it’s a guessing game now. A game that most SES and URM will not know how to play and this TO ends up hurting them rather than helping.
I agree that the PP probably received advice not to submit; I'm just saying I think that was bad advice. And I agree completely that URMs and low SES get hurt by test optional for the same reason - bad advice not to take tests and submit the scores.
While most TO colleges may say they do not assume scores were worse if not submitted, it is a logical assumption. It's hard to see how they don't make such an assumption here in 2024.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Test optional is here to stay.
Pendulums always swing...
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Test optional should stay. Submit if you wish and the school will consider it. Don't submit if you wish and the school will not consider it. Simple. You don't need to get your knickers all tied up in knots just because your DC scored high on the STA/ACT. Submit your score but know that your DC's application will be viewed in its entirety.
GPA is the most important indicator by far because it shows the work that the student puts in all four years of high school.
GPA can be easily skewed by cheating, which is very common in most if not all high schools.
SATs can be improved but not gamed. A 1200 kid is not going to test prep there was to a 1500.
The entire point of the SAT was to move beyond all the advantages that wealthy families have. It allowed smart but otherwise disadvantaged students to show their chops.
TO works for the rich and hurts everyone else.
Anonymous wrote:There's a strong argument for bringing back SAT subject tests as well.
The SAT II Math Level 2, Physics, Chemistry, US History, etc. were all very useful in helping determine preparation.
weighing “external assessment” more heavily than GPA, with a particular focus on AP scores.