If you don't submit the 1500 the school is 100% going to assume the student scored less than 1500.

End of story.

Anonymous wrote:This is Duke's most recent numbers: https://admissions.duke.edu/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/2027ClassProfile.pdf
Did anyone here actually look up the numbers? The class profile for 2027 reports that the middle 50% for accepted students is 1520-1570. I assume that 1500 is in the bottom 10-15% of admits. Why would you want to be there? As Duke presumably wants to raise its average SAT number, you're better off if you can help them raise their average than knock it down. Not submitting a score at least doesn't knock down the average. Seems obvious.

Superficially, yeah. The average isn’t affected, but there are easy inferences that can be drawn.

You don’t actually think Duke and other schools that are TO believe that anyone submitting an application without a test score is actually capable of delivering a high score, right? Let’s say 1540 or 35 and above.

Just like everyone else, they aren’t fooled. They don’t think the application is lacking a test score because the family couldn’t afford the registration fee, because the applicant refused to take a “biased test”, or because the student is actually capable of a very high test score, but figured, why bother?

They assume the score was low, or would be low. Why wouldn’t they?

If you don't submit the 1500 and get rejected you'll always wonder whether you made a mistake. If you submit and get rejected you'll be disappointed but know that Duke is highly selective. A 1500 does not guarantee admission but it also won't tank an all around strong application.

Don't buy into the advice from parents on here whose kids couldn't break 1300.

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And the fact that scores are so susceptible to prep makes it more clear you should submit; if the school assumes you prepped and still couldn't get a decent score, that's not a good look.

I don't get you logic. You think it's a better idea to submit a significantly below average score to Duke because you'd worry that, if you don't submit a score, Duke will assume that the student got a significantly below average score. Doesn't make much sense.
And I assume Duke would prefer to not have to put this mediocre score into its average.

Yes. And with no hesitation. The schools average is based on self selecting applicants. All of whom are reaching for a top school. Many of whom have been snookered into not submitting great scores.

Nationally (and internationally) a 1500 is a fantastic score. With 1.5m in the proband you know your percentile really means something. No one gets to opt out of being counted nationally.

1500 is a very good score nationally. But it's NOT a good score for Duke. It's a score that is significantly below Duke's average of scores submitted by enrolled students. Back in the old days, that would have been OK, as everyone had to submit a score and 1500 isn't a horribly bad score. But today, Duke doesn't have to take kids with lower than average scores. This kid might still be admitted DESPITE the 1500, but there's no good argument that the score will help her.

We're in the last years of the SAT, that's for certain. And you'll help your child most by being logical in how you play this game. And for here, Duke doesn't want that 1500 in its mix, if it can avoid it.

It’s certain, y’all. We have someone with a crystal ball up in here!

Gonna be fascinating to see the looks on the faces of the “my kid just doesn’t test well” crowd when the UC system reinstates standardized testing and the rest of the country slowly awakens to how relevant testing is to the admissions process.

You are so out of touch.

PP sounds nuts but requiring tests is oming back for some - never all.

Requiring tests is coming back? Where?

DP. Schools requiring tests include MIT and publics in a few states (FL, GA, etc). A recent podcast conversation between Dartmouth and Yale AOs sounded like they'd move toward some sort of test-recommended policy.

Not really a trend. MIT ended test optional more than a year and a half ago. And the FL system is in the midst of instituting its own "Classic Learning Test" for admissions----basically making sure everyone thinks like Desantis. No thanks.

There is absolutely no way a Yale or Dartmouth ever again requires or recommends tests. The landscape has changed far too much. On top of most CA students no longer taking tests, lots of other kids bagging them, there is the anti-affirmative action decision, which complicates things if a school requires or encourages a test that has been proven to reward tutoring, test prep courses, multiple takes of the test, and other inidicia of wealth. Not happening.

Please divulge the test scores in your family that you want to hide from, or at least pretend don’t exist.

By the way, the UC Board of Regents is on record for years now that they will be developing their own systemwide admissions test to evaluate college readiness.

Testing isn’t going anywhere.

I'm checking in from California. That's not true on board of regents developing a UC-specific test. The UC president has specifically stated that the UC system is not developing one, doesn't know of one, and that they have rejected the idea of using the statewide high school assessment as a substitute for the SAT/ACT. And at this point, there would be a revolt if either the UC or CalState systems reinstituted a testing requirement (or even an option). Our kids are at a top private hs that regularly sends about 20% of class to Ivies and Stanford, and I've heard it's less than a third of the current seniors that even took a standardized test. In publics, it's almost no one.

A revolt led by whom, since you already know the faculty voted unanimously to resume use of standardized testing three years ago (before Napolitano took into her own hands)? Parents? Parents of “bad test takers”? Really? A revolt?

P.S. At my Top 5 public HS in CA, 93% of this year’s juniors sat for the PSAT last month, and 77% of our current senior class has already submitted at least one ACT or SAT result through those respective testing companies. After December’s administration, that 77% may increase.

Asians wouldn’t revolt they’d just buckle down and excel at the test. Only lazy entitled white kids would be mad.

Thank you for the casual racism, but I think the point is that the individual suggesting a revolt would ensue (the same individual whose kid is a “bad test taker”) is the same person who would be leading the flimsy revolt. They are so deeply, emotionally connected with their personal benefit that arose from the gift of test blind admissions, they aren’t about to let anyone take that away from them without a fight (or a revolt, whatever).

This is Duke's most recent numbers: https://admissions.duke.edu/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/2027ClassProfile.pdf
Did anyone here actually look up the numbers? The class profile for 2027 reports that the middle 50% for accepted students is 1520-1570. I assume that 1500 is in the bottom 10-15% of admits. Why would you want to be there? As Duke presumably wants to raise its average SAT number, you're better off if you can help them raise their average than knock it down. Not submitting a score at least doesn't knock down the average. Seems obvious.

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And the fact that scores are so susceptible to prep makes it more clear you should submit; if the school assumes you prepped and still couldn't get a decent score, that's not a good look.

I don't get you logic. You think it's a better idea to submit a significantly below average score to Duke because you'd worry that, if you don't submit a score, Duke will assume that the student got a significantly below average score. Doesn't make much sense.
And I assume Duke would prefer to not have to put this mediocre score into its average.

Yes. And with no hesitation. The schools average is based on self selecting applicants. All of whom are reaching for a top school. Many of whom have been snookered into not submitting great scores.

Nationally (and internationally) a 1500 is a fantastic score. With 1.5m in the proband you know your percentile really means something. No one gets to opt out of being counted nationally.

1500 is a very good score nationally. But it's NOT a good score for Duke. It's a score that is significantly below Duke's average of scores submitted by enrolled students. Back in the old days, that would have been OK, as everyone had to submit a score and 1500 isn't a horribly bad score. But today, Duke doesn't have to take kids with lower than average scores. This kid might still be admitted DESPITE the 1500, but there's no good argument that the score will help her.

We're in the last years of the SAT, that's for certain. And you'll help your child most by being logical in how you play this game. And for here, Duke doesn't want that 1500 in its mix, if it can avoid it.

It’s certain, y’all. We have someone with a crystal ball up in here!

Gonna be fascinating to see the looks on the faces of the “my kid just doesn’t test well” crowd when the UC system reinstates standardized testing and the rest of the country slowly awakens to how relevant testing is to the admissions process.

You are so out of touch.

PP sounds nuts but requiring tests is oming back for some - never all.

Requiring tests is coming back? Where?

DP. Schools requiring tests include MIT and publics in a few states (FL, GA, etc). A recent podcast conversation between Dartmouth and Yale AOs sounded like they'd move toward some sort of test-recommended policy.

Not really a trend. MIT ended test optional more than a year and a half ago. And the FL system is in the midst of instituting its own "Classic Learning Test" for admissions----basically making sure everyone thinks like Desantis. No thanks.

There is absolutely no way a Yale or Dartmouth ever again requires or recommends tests. The landscape has changed far too much. On top of most CA students no longer taking tests, lots of other kids bagging them, there is the anti-affirmative action decision, which complicates things if a school requires or encourages a test that has been proven to reward tutoring, test prep courses, multiple takes of the test, and other inidicia of wealth. Not happening.

Please divulge the test scores in your family that you want to hide from, or at least pretend don’t exist.

By the way, the UC Board of Regents is on record for years now that they will be developing their own systemwide admissions test to evaluate college readiness.

Testing isn’t going anywhere.

I'm checking in from California. That's not true on board of regents developing a UC-specific test. The UC president has specifically stated that the UC system is not developing one, doesn't know of one, and that they have rejected the idea of using the statewide high school assessment as a substitute for the SAT/ACT. And at this point, there would be a revolt if either the UC or CalState systems reinstituted a testing requirement (or even an option). Our kids are at a top private hs that regularly sends about 20% of class to Ivies and Stanford, and I've heard it's less than a third of the current seniors that even took a standardized test. In publics, it's almost no one.

A revolt led by whom, since you already know the faculty voted unanimously to resume use of standardized testing three years ago (before Napolitano took into her own hands)? Parents? Parents of “bad test takers”? Really? A revolt?

P.S. At my Top 5 public HS in CA, 93% of this year’s juniors sat for the PSAT last month, and 77% of our current senior class has already submitted at least one ACT or SAT result through those respective testing companies. After December’s administration, that 77% may increase.

Asians wouldn’t revolt they’d just buckle down and excel at the test. Only lazy entitled white kids would be mad.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

And the fact that scores are so susceptible to prep makes it more clear you should submit; if the school assumes you prepped and still couldn't get a decent score, that's not a good look.

I don't get you logic. You think it's a better idea to submit a significantly below average score to Duke because you'd worry that, if you don't submit a score, Duke will assume that the student got a significantly below average score. Doesn't make much sense.
And I assume Duke would prefer to not have to put this mediocre score into its average.

NP: First, even with TO, it's not a mediocre score. Duke knows that a kid with a 1500 will thrive. Not submitting a 1500 could place the student in the not admissible pile if rigor or the GPA is questioned (e.g., grade inflation or lower than the average).

If Duke wanted to admit the OP's child, a 1500 doesn't necessarily bring down the average. You assume that everyone accepted yields. A student with a 1500 may yield because that is their highest rank acceptance, and a person with a 1550 may not yield because they were accepted at HYPSM or couldn't afford tuition.

You also should consider how AO's shape classes. After identifying the admissible students and institutional priorities, AO's can shape the class via statistical modeling and/or advanced algorithms to predict the desired GPA and test score averages, gender, etc. The class averages/demographics can be tweaked, for example, by increasing or decreasing the number of students accepted TO and/or increasing the number of students with scores >1550.

--R1 college professor/chair

Haha. Stay in your lane, professor.

I'd love to see the algorithm that rewards applicants with test scores that pull down the class average. Would be time to get a new programmer.

You clearly didn't understand what I described. An AO can shape the class and avoid pulling down the class average.

Simple scenario:

Total Students Needed to Enroll: 2000
Yield Rate: 80%
Students enrolled TO: 200
Students enrolled w/ SAT Scores: 1800
Minimum Admissible SAT Score: 1490
Target 50% SAT Score (among those who submitted scores): 1550

The AO would aim for an average SAT score of approximately 1535 or higher among 2,150 accepted students. The remaining students: accept 100 between 1490 and 1540 and 250 students TO.

This Test Optional universe is so confusing for everyone. I really wish colleges would get it together and fricken' decide. Does the SAT/ACT matter or not? Choose, you sadistic idiots.

In the meantime, families are reading tea leaves. 1500 to Duke. What to do?

I would submit - definitely if you are URM. But also as white or Asian. It puts you in in the 95th percentile. Clearly the student is capable of handling the workload. The score though is not going to help, but it crosses the threshold. Not submitting - reading tea leaves here - would come with a bigger penalty. It's human nature to assume the applicant is rolling with a 1200 or whatever when they don't submit test scores. And 1500 is good enough. No one is going to be rejected for it

The California publics are going to do their thing. But I sense that generally T20 colleges want test scores to be mandatory. Since there's such a strong correlation with performance, they feel more confident handing out an admittance when they have scores above the baseline. Suspect in ten years it will be mandatory again

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And the fact that scores are so susceptible to prep makes it more clear you should submit; if the school assumes you prepped and still couldn't get a decent score, that's not a good look.

I don't get you logic. You think it's a better idea to submit a significantly below average score to Duke because you'd worry that, if you don't submit a score, Duke will assume that the student got a significantly below average score. Doesn't make much sense.
And I assume Duke would prefer to not have to put this mediocre score into its average.

Yes. And with no hesitation. The schools average is based on self selecting applicants. All of whom are reaching for a top school. Many of whom have been snookered into not submitting great scores.

Nationally (and internationally) a 1500 is a fantastic score. With 1.5m in the proband you know your percentile really means something. No one gets to opt out of being counted nationally.

1500 is a very good score nationally. But it's NOT a good score for Duke. It's a score that is significantly below Duke's average of scores submitted by enrolled students. Back in the old days, that would have been OK, as everyone had to submit a score and 1500 isn't a horribly bad score. But today, Duke doesn't have to take kids with lower than average scores. This kid might still be admitted DESPITE the 1500, but there's no good argument that the score will help her.

We're in the last years of the SAT, that's for certain. And you'll help your child most by being logical in how you play this game. And for here, Duke doesn't want that 1500 in its mix, if it can avoid it.

It’s certain, y’all. We have someone with a crystal ball up in here!

Gonna be fascinating to see the looks on the faces of the “my kid just doesn’t test well” crowd when the UC system reinstates standardized testing and the rest of the country slowly awakens to how relevant testing is to the admissions process.

You are so out of touch.

PP sounds nuts but requiring tests is oming back for some - never all.

Requiring tests is coming back? Where?

DP. Schools requiring tests include MIT and publics in a few states (FL, GA, etc). A recent podcast conversation between Dartmouth and Yale AOs sounded like they'd move toward some sort of test-recommended policy.

Not really a trend. MIT ended test optional more than a year and a half ago. And the FL system is in the midst of instituting its own "Classic Learning Test" for admissions----basically making sure everyone thinks like Desantis. No thanks.

There is absolutely no way a Yale or Dartmouth ever again requires or recommends tests. The landscape has changed far too much. On top of most CA students no longer taking tests, lots of other kids bagging them, there is the anti-affirmative action decision, which complicates things if a school requires or encourages a test that has been proven to reward tutoring, test prep courses, multiple takes of the test, and other inidicia of wealth. Not happening.

Please divulge the test scores in your family that you want to hide from, or at least pretend don’t exist.

By the way, the UC Board of Regents is on record for years now that they will be developing their own systemwide admissions test to evaluate college readiness.

Testing isn’t going anywhere.

I'm checking in from California. That's not true on board of regents developing a UC-specific test. The UC president has specifically stated that the UC system is not developing one, doesn't know of one, and that they have rejected the idea of using the statewide high school assessment as a substitute for the SAT/ACT. And at this point, there would be a revolt if either the UC or CalState systems reinstituted a testing requirement (or even an option). Our kids are at a top private hs that regularly sends about 20% of class to Ivies and Stanford, and I've heard it's less than a third of the current seniors that even took a standardized test. In publics, it's almost no one.

A revolt led by whom, since you already know the faculty voted unanimously to resume use of standardized testing three years ago (before Napolitano took into her own hands)? Parents? Parents of “bad test takers”? Really? A revolt?

P.S. At my Top 5 public HS in CA, 93% of this year’s juniors sat for the PSAT last month, and 77% of our current senior class has already submitted at least one ACT or SAT result through those respective testing companies. After December’s administration, that 77% may increase.

If I were in your shoes OP, I'd recommend submitting the 1500 to Duke.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

And the fact that scores are so susceptible to prep makes it more clear you should submit; if the school assumes you prepped and still couldn't get a decent score, that's not a good look.

I don't get you logic. You think it's a better idea to submit a significantly below average score to Duke because you'd worry that, if you don't submit a score, Duke will assume that the student got a significantly below average score. Doesn't make much sense.
And I assume Duke would prefer to not have to put this mediocre score into its average.

Yes. And with no hesitation. The schools average is based on self selecting applicants. All of whom are reaching for a top school. Many of whom have been snookered into not submitting great scores.

Nationally (and internationally) a 1500 is a fantastic score. With 1.5m in the proband you know your percentile really means something. No one gets to opt out of being counted nationally.

1500 is a very good score nationally. But it's NOT a good score for Duke. It's a score that is significantly below Duke's average of scores submitted by enrolled students. Back in the old days, that would have been OK, as everyone had to submit a score and 1500 isn't a horribly bad score. But today, Duke doesn't have to take kids with lower than average scores. This kid might still be admitted DESPITE the 1500, but there's no good argument that the score will help her.

We're in the last years of the SAT, that's for certain. And you'll help your child most by being logical in how you play this game. And for here, Duke doesn't want that 1500 in its mix, if it can avoid it.

It’s certain, y’all. We have someone with a crystal ball up in here!

Gonna be fascinating to see the looks on the faces of the “my kid just doesn’t test well” crowd when the UC system reinstates standardized testing and the rest of the country slowly awakens to how relevant testing is to the admissions process.

You are so out of touch.

PP sounds nuts but requiring tests is oming back for some - never all.

Requiring tests is coming back? Where?

DP. Schools requiring tests include MIT and publics in a few states (FL, GA, etc). A recent podcast conversation between Dartmouth and Yale AOs sounded like they'd move toward some sort of test-recommended policy.

Not really a trend. MIT ended test optional more than a year and a half ago. And the FL system is in the midst of instituting its own "Classic Learning Test" for admissions----basically making sure everyone thinks like Desantis. No thanks.

There is absolutely no way a Yale or Dartmouth ever again requires or recommends tests. The landscape has changed far too much. On top of most CA students no longer taking tests, lots of other kids bagging them, there is the anti-affirmative action decision, which complicates things if a school requires or encourages a test that has been proven to reward tutoring, test prep courses, multiple takes of the test, and other inidicia of wealth. Not happening.

So Yale doesn't require the MCAT pr LSAT for admission consideration into their medical or law school? Fascinating.

Anonymous wrote:

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And the fact that scores are so susceptible to prep makes it more clear you should submit; if the school assumes you prepped and still couldn't get a decent score, that's not a good look.

I don't get you logic. You think it's a better idea to submit a significantly below average score to Duke because you'd worry that, if you don't submit a score, Duke will assume that the student got a significantly below average score. Doesn't make much sense.
And I assume Duke would prefer to not have to put this mediocre score into its average.

Yes. And with no hesitation. The schools average is based on self selecting applicants. All of whom are reaching for a top school. Many of whom have been snookered into not submitting great scores.

Nationally (and internationally) a 1500 is a fantastic score. With 1.5m in the proband you know your percentile really means something. No one gets to opt out of being counted nationally.

1500 is a very good score nationally. But it's NOT a good score for Duke. It's a score that is significantly below Duke's average of scores submitted by enrolled students. Back in the old days, that would have been OK, as everyone had to submit a score and 1500 isn't a horribly bad score. But today, Duke doesn't have to take kids with lower than average scores. This kid might still be admitted DESPITE the 1500, but there's no good argument that the score will help her.

We're in the last years of the SAT, that's for certain. And you'll help your child most by being logical in how you play this game. And for here, Duke doesn't want that 1500 in its mix, if it can avoid it.

It’s certain, y’all. We have someone with a crystal ball up in here!

Gonna be fascinating to see the looks on the faces of the “my kid just doesn’t test well” crowd when the UC system reinstates standardized testing and the rest of the country slowly awakens to how relevant testing is to the admissions process.

You are so out of touch.

PP sounds nuts but requiring tests is oming back for some - never all.

Requiring tests is coming back? Where?

DP. Schools requiring tests include MIT and publics in a few states (FL, GA, etc). A recent podcast conversation between Dartmouth and Yale AOs sounded like they'd move toward some sort of test-recommended policy.

Not really a trend. MIT ended test optional more than a year and a half ago. And the FL system is in the midst of instituting its own "Classic Learning Test" for admissions----basically making sure everyone thinks like Desantis. No thanks.

There is absolutely no way a Yale or Dartmouth ever again requires or recommends tests. The landscape has changed far too much. On top of most CA students no longer taking tests, lots of other kids bagging them, there is the anti-affirmative action decision, which complicates things if a school requires or encourages a test that has been proven to reward tutoring, test prep courses, multiple takes of the test, and other inidicia of wealth. Not happening.

Please divulge the test scores in your family that you want to hide from, or at least pretend don’t exist.

By the way, the UC Board of Regents is on record for years now that they will be developing their own systemwide admissions test to evaluate college readiness.

Testing isn’t going anywhere.

I'm checking in from California. That's not true on board of regents developing a UC-specific test. The UC president has specifically stated that the UC system is not developing one, doesn't know of one, and that they have rejected the idea of using the statewide high school assessment as a substitute for the SAT/ACT. And at this point, there would be a revolt if either the UC or CalState systems reinstituted a testing requirement (or even an option). Our kids are at a top private hs that regularly sends about 20% of class to Ivies and Stanford, and I've heard it's less than a third of the current seniors that even took a standardized test. In publics, it's almost no one.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

And the fact that scores are so susceptible to prep makes it more clear you should submit; if the school assumes you prepped and still couldn't get a decent score, that's not a good look.

I don't get you logic. You think it's a better idea to submit a significantly below average score to Duke because you'd worry that, if you don't submit a score, Duke will assume that the student got a significantly below average score. Doesn't make much sense.
And I assume Duke would prefer to not have to put this mediocre score into its average.

Yes. And with no hesitation. The schools average is based on self selecting applicants. All of whom are reaching for a top school. Many of whom have been snookered into not submitting great scores.

Nationally (and internationally) a 1500 is a fantastic score. With 1.5m in the proband you know your percentile really means something. No one gets to opt out of being counted nationally.

1500 is a very good score nationally. But it's NOT a good score for Duke. It's a score that is significantly below Duke's average of scores submitted by enrolled students. Back in the old days, that would have been OK, as everyone had to submit a score and 1500 isn't a horribly bad score. But today, Duke doesn't have to take kids with lower than average scores. This kid might still be admitted DESPITE the 1500, but there's no good argument that the score will help her.

We're in the last years of the SAT, that's for certain. And you'll help your child most by being logical in how you play this game. And for here, Duke doesn't want that 1500 in its mix, if it can avoid it.

It’s certain, y’all. We have someone with a crystal ball up in here!

Gonna be fascinating to see the looks on the faces of the “my kid just doesn’t test well” crowd when the UC system reinstates standardized testing and the rest of the country slowly awakens to how relevant testing is to the admissions process.

You are so out of touch.

PP sounds nuts but requiring tests is oming back for some - never all.

Requiring tests is coming back? Where?

DP. Schools requiring tests include MIT and publics in a few states (FL, GA, etc). A recent podcast conversation between Dartmouth and Yale AOs sounded like they'd move toward some sort of test-recommended policy.

Not really a trend. MIT ended test optional more than a year and a half ago. And the FL system is in the midst of instituting its own "Classic Learning Test" for admissions----basically making sure everyone thinks like Desantis. No thanks.

There is absolutely no way a Yale or Dartmouth ever again requires or recommends tests. The landscape has changed far too much. On top of most CA students no longer taking tests, lots of other kids bagging them, there is the anti-affirmative action decision, which complicates things if a school requires or encourages a test that has been proven to reward tutoring, test prep courses, multiple takes of the test, and other inidicia of wealth. Not happening.

Listen for yourself. https://open.spotify.com/episode/7fHETLND5IlCqWHp2rt3Kj?go=1&sp_cid=41d52295ba4cd2ec45d5bc23d65a069b&utm_source=embed_player_p&utm_medium=desktop&nd=1&dlsi=e66724822f81433e Linked from https://admissions.dartmouth.edu/follow/admissions-beat-podcast Data Dive Part 2

Yale AO: We were looking into this question before the pandemic just to understand how important standardized testing was in predicting how well a student would do at Yale. And it turns out actually that the SAT or the ACT is the single best predictor of a student’s academic performance at Yale. And particularly the math SAT and persistence in some of our science majors. This is a bit counter to the national research which suggests that GPA is a bit more predictive than standardized testing. But, at Yale, we find that standardized testing is the single biggest predictor.
. . .
Dartmouth AO: Test optional is here to stay, but tests required is going to reappear. Maybe not as universally as we were in 2019, but it feels like there will be colleges that say, once again testing is a component of our admission battery and you do preserve your options as places perhaps make that assessment.

I doubt these schools will go all the way to tests required, but it's clear they'd like to see scores, some sort of "tests recommended" policy.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

And the fact that scores are so susceptible to prep makes it more clear you should submit; if the school assumes you prepped and still couldn't get a decent score, that's not a good look.

I don't get you logic. You think it's a better idea to submit a significantly below average score to Duke because you'd worry that, if you don't submit a score, Duke will assume that the student got a significantly below average score. Doesn't make much sense.
And I assume Duke would prefer to not have to put this mediocre score into its average.

Yes. And with no hesitation. The schools average is based on self selecting applicants. All of whom are reaching for a top school. Many of whom have been snookered into not submitting great scores.

Nationally (and internationally) a 1500 is a fantastic score. With 1.5m in the proband you know your percentile really means something. No one gets to opt out of being counted nationally.

1500 is a very good score nationally. But it's NOT a good score for Duke. It's a score that is significantly below Duke's average of scores submitted by enrolled students. Back in the old days, that would have been OK, as everyone had to submit a score and 1500 isn't a horribly bad score. But today, Duke doesn't have to take kids with lower than average scores. This kid might still be admitted DESPITE the 1500, but there's no good argument that the score will help her.

We're in the last years of the SAT, that's for certain. And you'll help your child most by being logical in how you play this game. And for here, Duke doesn't want that 1500 in its mix, if it can avoid it.

It’s certain, y’all. We have someone with a crystal ball up in here!

Gonna be fascinating to see the looks on the faces of the “my kid just doesn’t test well” crowd when the UC system reinstates standardized testing and the rest of the country slowly awakens to how relevant testing is to the admissions process.

You are so out of touch.

PP sounds nuts but requiring tests is oming back for some - never all.

Requiring tests is coming back? Where?

DP. Schools requiring tests include MIT and publics in a few states (FL, GA, etc). A recent podcast conversation between Dartmouth and Yale AOs sounded like they'd move toward some sort of test-recommended policy.

Not really a trend. MIT ended test optional more than a year and a half ago. And the FL system is in the midst of instituting its own "Classic Learning Test" for admissions----basically making sure everyone thinks like Desantis. No thanks.

There is absolutely no way a Yale or Dartmouth ever again requires or recommends tests. The landscape has changed far too much. On top of most CA students no longer taking tests, lots of other kids bagging them, there is the anti-affirmative action decision, which complicates things if a school requires or encourages a test that has been proven to reward tutoring, test prep courses, multiple takes of the test, and other inidicia of wealth. Not happening.

I don't think we will see a lot of Tests Required although there will be some. Test Recommended is likely at Ivys and Top 40 as time goes by.

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And the fact that scores are so susceptible to prep makes it more clear you should submit; if the school assumes you prepped and still couldn't get a decent score, that's not a good look.

I don't get you logic. You think it's a better idea to submit a significantly below average score to Duke because you'd worry that, if you don't submit a score, Duke will assume that the student got a significantly below average score. Doesn't make much sense.
And I assume Duke would prefer to not have to put this mediocre score into its average.

Yes. And with no hesitation. The schools average is based on self selecting applicants. All of whom are reaching for a top school. Many of whom have been snookered into not submitting great scores.

Nationally (and internationally) a 1500 is a fantastic score. With 1.5m in the proband you know your percentile really means something. No one gets to opt out of being counted nationally.

1500 is a very good score nationally. But it's NOT a good score for Duke. It's a score that is significantly below Duke's average of scores submitted by enrolled students. Back in the old days, that would have been OK, as everyone had to submit a score and 1500 isn't a horribly bad score. But today, Duke doesn't have to take kids with lower than average scores. This kid might still be admitted DESPITE the 1500, but there's no good argument that the score will help her.

We're in the last years of the SAT, that's for certain. And you'll help your child most by being logical in how you play this game. And for here, Duke doesn't want that 1500 in its mix, if it can avoid it.

It’s certain, y’all. We have someone with a crystal ball up in here!

Gonna be fascinating to see the looks on the faces of the “my kid just doesn’t test well” crowd when the UC system reinstates standardized testing and the rest of the country slowly awakens to how relevant testing is to the admissions process.

You are so out of touch.

PP sounds nuts but requiring tests is oming back for some - never all.

Requiring tests is coming back? Where?

DP. Schools requiring tests include MIT and publics in a few states (FL, GA, etc). A recent podcast conversation between Dartmouth and Yale AOs sounded like they'd move toward some sort of test-recommended policy.

Not really a trend. MIT ended test optional more than a year and a half ago. And the FL system is in the midst of instituting its own "Classic Learning Test" for admissions----basically making sure everyone thinks like Desantis. No thanks.

There is absolutely no way a Yale or Dartmouth ever again requires or recommends tests. The landscape has changed far too much. On top of most CA students no longer taking tests, lots of other kids bagging them, there is the anti-affirmative action decision, which complicates things if a school requires or encourages a test that has been proven to reward tutoring, test prep courses, multiple takes of the test, and other inidicia of wealth. Not happening.

Please divulge the test scores in your family that you want to hide from, or at least pretend don’t exist.

By the way, the UC Board of Regents is on record for years now that they will be developing their own systemwide admissions test to evaluate college readiness.

Testing isn’t going anywhere.