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Anonymous wrote:Apologies if this was already posted, but I came across this article from New York magazine that made me question the efficacy of lockdowns, and our whole response to the pandemic. Very much 20/20 hindsight, but the more I think about it, the angrier I get, especially with closing the schools.

Here’s a link, along with a key paragraph arguing that Sweden probably had the right response.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/covid-lockdowns-big-fail-joe-nocera-bethany-mclean-book-excerpt.html

So in attempting to gauge the value of lockdowns, the most appropriate way is to look not just at COVID deaths but at all deaths during the pandemic years. That’s known as the “excess deaths” — a measure of how many more people died than in a normal year. One authoritative accounting was compiled by The Spectator using data gathered by the OECD. It showed that during the first two years of the pandemic — 2020 and 2021 — the U.S. had 19 percent more deaths than it normally saw in two years’ time. For the U.K., there was a 10 percent rise. And for Sweden — one of the few countries that had refused to lock down its society — it was just 4 percent. An analysis by Bloomberg found broadly similar results. In other words, for all the criticism Sweden shouldered from the world’s public health officials for refusing to institute lockdowns, it wound up seeing a lower overall death rate during the pandemic than most peer nations that shut down schools and public gatherings. It is not unreasonable to conclude from the available data that the lockdowns led to more overall deaths in the U.S. than a policy that resembled Sweden’s would have.

This is a stupid take.

That was enlightening. Let me guess, you’re a COVID cultist who’s angry that your extreme precautions proved to be a waste of time and resources.

COVID cultists? OK if you do not believe that COVID in its earliest days was a killer disease, then there is no point in talking to you. You will never believe any precaution or vaccination is a needed reality. And those who believe it was a killer disease think you are delusional. You will never convince the latter that covid precautions were a waste so why are you even bothering? Honest question.

But was it really? That’s what I’m not so sure about. You could *maybe* argue it’s a killer disease for anyone over 75. But certainly not normal, healthy adults.

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Anonymous wrote:Good Lord OP’s obsession and anger is so weird.

You know it's not, you'll just never be able to reconcile the fact that you were so mislead and duped. It takes strength and courage to admit you were wrong. Maybe you'll get there someday.

+1000. This whole Covid debacle is a lesson in sunk cost fallacy.

Maybe what happened was not wrong. Just because you are very emphatic doesn't mean you are right. We all can propose alternatives to past events. Any rewrite of a story can seem more appealing than reality if we are the ones who create the rewrite.

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Anonymous wrote:Who is still obsessed and mad over “lockdowns” (which isn’t anything we ever did in this country anyway).

the National Guard wouldn’t let me sit in the park in April 2020.

What park was that, dearie?

I don’t remember any National Guard deployments related to Covid so I am going to call “bullshit” on this one.

Again, I don’t understand the obsession with this. As was previously stated, public health officials did the best they could with the information available at the time. And the goal was to not overwhelm hospitals— to slow the spread, not prevent people from getting sick. They just didn’t want people sick all at once. To that end, social distancing (not “lockdowns” we never had actual lockdowns) were largely effective. Somehow these obsessed people have moved the goalposts and think the objective was preventing people from getting it. That was never the stated objective.

It was in DC. But sure, continue to lie all you want. It’s all you have now.

Liar.

Nope: https://www.113wg.ang.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/2452350/a-look-back-at-2020-dc-national-guard-covid-19-response-efforts/

Nope. You couldn’t even spend the time to read what you posted to support your lies.

“The D.C. National Guard’s COVID-19 support missions included creating standalone hospital rooms, helping maintain social distancing guidelines and sewing masks.”

“The D.C. National Guard provided logistical support, transportation and security to the converted facility.”

“Guardsmen helped maintain a calm environment while ensuring shoppers observed social distancing guidelines at supermarkets, monuments, and the Wharf. At a time when the capital region was experiencing face mask shortages, the 113th Aircrew Flight Equipment shop fabricated about 800 masks.”

The National Guard was not kicking old ladies out of parks.

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Anonymous wrote:Honestly at this point who cares. We did the best we could under a unique and heretofore inexperienced event. This is for scientists to be studying to plan for future pandemics. Getting angry now is ridiculous.

The problem is we weren’t allowed to ask questions and dissenting views were discouraged. Anytime you’re not allowed to ask questions or push back on something you should be concerned. The climate at the time didn’t allow questioning of precautions.

Because it was an EMERGENCY situation.
Having known several people who died or spent months in the hospital with Covid it was not something most of us wanted to just take our chances with.

Questions and dissent are most important during an emergency. No you don’t get to memory hole this.

What do you think should happen today? Are you advocating for anything in particular?

I think laws should be passed that require schools to remain open. Public health authories should be sent to school to understand risks and benefits. Strong protection of 1A rights in the pending Supreme Court case. Fixing the learning loss is going to be a long term project but the new understanding of the importance of phonics is a great step. We need to do the same for math.

I agree with this. What happened in DC public schools and many other schools needs to be addressed. The idea that publicly funded public schools can just close for an entire school year, is insane.

I think we need rules in place linking prolonged school closures with teacher furloughs. You want to keep the schools closed for a year or more? Okay, then we need to furlough the staff and the money saved should be sent to families as a tax rebate that can be used toward private school, tutoring, etc.

DP. I don't know if I agree with that, but we need an urgent and ongoing evaluation of where students stand now and each year going forward to inform future decisions. My primary concern with the way public schools handled COVID is not necessarily that decision-makers were trying to protect the health, particularly the health of adults who would be in school buildings, but how little consideration has been given to the consequences of that protection for students. If unprecedented measures were needed to protect life, why weren't unprecedented options for flexibility or remediation considered (even for a fleeting second) to mitigate harm to children? With the seasonality we have seen, school in the summers and closures around the winter holidays would have mitigated risk and allowed some normalcy, yet that was never on the table.

You want to spend time punishing for past buy what do you want to do for kids on school now? The kids in school on 2023, 2024, at this moment in time, how do you want to serve them? Scoring political points by litigating the past won't.

I don't want to punish anyone. But I will point out that "experts" who lobbied for closed schools offered assurances that kids would be just fine when schools reopened, and they were wrong. I don't even have kids in primary education anymore, but it is clear that what we are doing isn't working, and no one is offering any solutions. All I hear is blame for parents and students. I want to hear ideas for solving these problems that aren't just business as usual.

Yes, parents are ultimately responsible for their kids. Surprised you are now in favor of a nanny state.

No one is going to accept a solution where we defenestrate the teachers who were part of the lockdown during COVID so don't spend precious time waiting for that. We will also not get rid of the concept of public schools. So with that out of the way what are your solutions?

I would start by admitting that there is a problem and the most vulnerable students have been affected the most. Can you admit there is a problem?

You propose that there is a problem, YOU propose a solution.

Sorry. The data says that there is a problem, not me. I can't fathom why you refuse to admit that kids have been disadvantaged by pandemic policies other than possibly not caring about them?

you are "sorry"? Sorry about what? You think there is a problem, so what do you want to do about it? When I see problems, I try to solve them. Since you want to talk about "children" so much, spend time thinking about this problem you think they have.

One of the problems the children have is dealing with uncaring adults who won't acknowledge the lasting impact the pandemic has had on their lives. I think that is a massive problem that leads to student disengagement.

My solution begins with the supposed adults in the room who claimed to be experts and said that learning loss can be easily made up to admitting that "business as usual" isn't working and proposing outside-of-the-box solutions, whether it's an extended school year, changes to the school calendar, high quality targeted in-person tutoring, having students repeat a year if the skills aren't there, removing ridiculous administrative burdens on teachers (or given them more support), increasing teacher planning time, or a combination. Something has to change. And yes, I know you need funding for these measures, but how can you get the support needed without first acknowledging the problems? That's a genuine question.

"I think that is a massive problem that leads to student disengagement."--Disengaged and poorly behaved students in students are not engaging in the complex thought process of "oh the adults failed me during COIVD so I am going to act out in rebellion now because they did not consider the possibility of learning loss": this does not happen.

One can think that the current "business as usual" is working, but that does not mean that the shutdowns were not needed. Understanding that the shutdowns were needed does not mean that one doesn't propose out of the box conculsions. Regarding the support needed, it is not only the people who now want to have a truth and reconciliation commission about the shutdowns who want to provide support and funds to schools, so you last point is moot.

Anonymous wrote:I enjoyed lockdown, personally.

Of course you did. You probably had teenagers delivering your groceries and a service worker from a marginalized community door dashing your food while you lounge around in your million dollar house.

Yeah - it was ok for those service workers to “put their life on the line” to bring you your Trader Joe’s groceries and grub hub your meals from the Cheesecake Factory.

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Anonymous wrote:Good Lord OP’s obsession and anger is so weird.

You know it's not, you'll just never be able to reconcile the fact that you were so mislead and duped. It takes strength and courage to admit you were wrong. Maybe you'll get there someday.

+1000. This whole Covid debacle is a lesson in sunk cost fallacy.

Anonymous wrote:Yes, schools were closed in Sweden. And the elderly and other vulnerable people were told to avoid being in public for over 2 1/2 years. Not to mention

There were also many other restrictions put in place that people ignore, including alcohol sales restrictions, all large events and large localities shutdown, including sports events, zoos, theatres, theme parks. Sports activities all shut down or went outdoors. Even “recommendations” (ie technically binding but unenforced) on restricting travel outside your home region.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/yes-schools-were-closed-in-sweden/

And it didn't work so well.

bruh, it is 2023 not 2021. Please update your x axis. Not to mention the key metric here is excess mortality, because lots of people died due to crime, lack of medical care access, and drug ODs where things were shut down.

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Anonymous wrote:Honestly at this point who cares. We did the best we could under a unique and heretofore inexperienced event. This is for scientists to be studying to plan for future pandemics. Getting angry now is ridiculous.

The problem is we weren’t allowed to ask questions and dissenting views were discouraged. Anytime you’re not allowed to ask questions or push back on something you should be concerned. The climate at the time didn’t allow questioning of precautions.

Because it was an EMERGENCY situation.
Having known several people who died or spent months in the hospital with Covid it was not something most of us wanted to just take our chances with.

Questions and dissent are most important during an emergency. No you don’t get to memory hole this.

What do you think should happen today? Are you advocating for anything in particular?

I think laws should be passed that require schools to remain open. Public health authories should be sent to school to understand risks and benefits. Strong protection of 1A rights in the pending Supreme Court case. Fixing the learning loss is going to be a long term project but the new understanding of the importance of phonics is a great step. We need to do the same for math.

I agree with this. What happened in DC public schools and many other schools needs to be addressed. The idea that publicly funded public schools can just close for an entire school year, is insane.

I think we need rules in place linking prolonged school closures with teacher furloughs. You want to keep the schools closed for a year or more? Okay, then we need to furlough the staff and the money saved should be sent to families as a tax rebate that can be used toward private school, tutoring, etc.

DP. I don't know if I agree with that, but we need an urgent and ongoing evaluation of where students stand now and each year going forward to inform future decisions. My primary concern with the way public schools handled COVID is not necessarily that decision-makers were trying to protect the health, particularly the health of adults who would be in school buildings, but how little consideration has been given to the consequences of that protection for students. If unprecedented measures were needed to protect life, why weren't unprecedented options for flexibility or remediation considered (even for a fleeting second) to mitigate harm to children? With the seasonality we have seen, school in the summers and closures around the winter holidays would have mitigated risk and allowed some normalcy, yet that was never on the table.

You want to spend time punishing for past buy what do you want to do for kids on school now? The kids in school on 2023, 2024, at this moment in time, how do you want to serve them? Scoring political points by litigating the past won't.

I don't want to punish anyone. But I will point out that "experts" who lobbied for closed schools offered assurances that kids would be just fine when schools reopened, and they were wrong. I don't even have kids in primary education anymore, but it is clear that what we are doing isn't working, and no one is offering any solutions. All I hear is blame for parents and students. I want to hear ideas for solving these problems that aren't just business as usual.

Yes, parents are ultimately responsible for their kids. Surprised you are now in favor of a nanny state.

No one is going to accept a solution where we defenestrate the teachers who were part of the lockdown during COVID so don't spend precious time waiting for that. We will also not get rid of the concept of public schools. So with that out of the way what are your solutions?

I would start by admitting that there is a problem and the most vulnerable students have been affected the most. Can you admit there is a problem?

You propose that there is a problem, YOU propose a solution.

Sorry. The data says that there is a problem, not me. I can't fathom why you refuse to admit that kids have been disadvantaged by pandemic policies other than possibly not caring about them?

you are "sorry"? Sorry about what? You think there is a problem, so what do you want to do about it? When I see problems, I try to solve them. Since you want to talk about "children" so much, spend time thinking about this problem you think they have.

One of the problems the children have is dealing with uncaring adults who won't acknowledge the lasting impact the pandemic has had on their lives. I think that is a massive problem that leads to student disengagement.

My solution begins with the supposed adults in the room who claimed to be experts and said that learning loss can be easily made up to admitting that "business as usual" isn't working and proposing outside-of-the-box solutions, whether it's an extended school year, changes to the school calendar, high quality targeted in-person tutoring, having students repeat a year if the skills aren't there, removing ridiculous administrative burdens on teachers (or given them more support), increasing teacher planning time, or a combination. Something has to change. And yes, I know you need funding for these measures, but how can you get the support needed without first acknowledging the problems? That's a genuine question.

In retrospect, it was appropriate to close schools in March, 2020. Covid was new. People were dying in Wuhan. The hospital system in Italy became totally overwhelmed. Then New York City. And so on and so forth. It was a new virus. No one knew anything. People were dying. The health care system didn't have the capacity or the knowledge to deal with this. Shutting things down at that moment in time was the right call.

Six months later when we knew a lot more - and particularly after we had effective vaccines - it was a disaster to close schools for another year. The learning loss was enormous. And so too was the basic socialization of children. Formative brains do not do well in isolation. Kids need school for lots of reasons. Anyone who has spent any time in public schools lately can attest that this is often a pretty damaged group of kids.

It was a mistake to keep schools closed. Blame the teachers union. Blame the political polarization at that time. If you recall, keeping schools closed made you a good liberal. Wanting them open made you a heartless MAGA. It was an ugly time and we made a mistake shutting things down for kids.

We are not going to put Dr Fauci, etc. on trial and send them to prison. Sorry if this is not what you want to hear.

Anonymous wrote:I love how there are STILL people on this thread sticking up for lockdowns. They did NOTHING. Worst "experiment" ever. Look where we are now because of lockdowns. Inflation through the roof. Happy?

What lockdowns? I don't remember any "lockdowns." Stop exaggerating; we didn't have those in this country, ever.

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Anonymous wrote:Honestly at this point who cares. We did the best we could under a unique and heretofore inexperienced event. This is for scientists to be studying to plan for future pandemics. Getting angry now is ridiculous.

The problem is we weren’t allowed to ask questions and dissenting views were discouraged. Anytime you’re not allowed to ask questions or push back on something you should be concerned. The climate at the time didn’t allow questioning of precautions.

Because it was an EMERGENCY situation.
Having known several people who died or spent months in the hospital with Covid it was not something most of us wanted to just take our chances with.

Questions and dissent are most important during an emergency. No you don’t get to memory hole this.

What do you think should happen today? Are you advocating for anything in particular?

I think laws should be passed that require schools to remain open. Public health authories should be sent to school to understand risks and benefits. Strong protection of 1A rights in the pending Supreme Court case. Fixing the learning loss is going to be a long term project but the new understanding of the importance of phonics is a great step. We need to do the same for math.

I agree with this. What happened in DC public schools and many other schools needs to be addressed. The idea that publicly funded public schools can just close for an entire school year, is insane.

I think we need rules in place linking prolonged school closures with teacher furloughs. You want to keep the schools closed for a year or more? Okay, then we need to furlough the staff and the money saved should be sent to families as a tax rebate that can be used toward private school, tutoring, etc.

DP. I don't know if I agree with that, but we need an urgent and ongoing evaluation of where students stand now and each year going forward to inform future decisions. My primary concern with the way public schools handled COVID is not necessarily that decision-makers were trying to protect the health, particularly the health of adults who would be in school buildings, but how little consideration has been given to the consequences of that protection for students. If unprecedented measures were needed to protect life, why weren't unprecedented options for flexibility or remediation considered (even for a fleeting second) to mitigate harm to children? With the seasonality we have seen, school in the summers and closures around the winter holidays would have mitigated risk and allowed some normalcy, yet that was never on the table.

You want to spend time punishing for past buy what do you want to do for kids on school now? The kids in school on 2023, 2024, at this moment in time, how do you want to serve them? Scoring political points by litigating the past won't.

I don't want to punish anyone. But I will point out that "experts" who lobbied for closed schools offered assurances that kids would be just fine when schools reopened, and they were wrong. I don't even have kids in primary education anymore, but it is clear that what we are doing isn't working, and no one is offering any solutions. All I hear is blame for parents and students. I want to hear ideas for solving these problems that aren't just business as usual.

Yes, parents are ultimately responsible for their kids. Surprised you are now in favor of a nanny state.

No one is going to accept a solution where we defenestrate the teachers who were part of the lockdown during COVID so don't spend precious time waiting for that. We will also not get rid of the concept of public schools. So with that out of the way what are your solutions?

I would start by admitting that there is a problem and the most vulnerable students have been affected the most. Can you admit there is a problem?

You propose that there is a problem, YOU propose a solution.

Sorry. The data says that there is a problem, not me. I can't fathom why you refuse to admit that kids have been disadvantaged by pandemic policies other than possibly not caring about them?

you are "sorry"? Sorry about what? You think there is a problem, so what do you want to do about it? When I see problems, I try to solve them. Since you want to talk about "children" so much, spend time thinking about this problem you think they have.

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Anonymous wrote:Honestly at this point who cares. We did the best we could under a unique and heretofore inexperienced event. This is for scientists to be studying to plan for future pandemics. Getting angry now is ridiculous.

The problem is we weren’t allowed to ask questions and dissenting views were discouraged. Anytime you’re not allowed to ask questions or push back on something you should be concerned. The climate at the time didn’t allow questioning of precautions.

Because it was an EMERGENCY situation.
Having known several people who died or spent months in the hospital with Covid it was not something most of us wanted to just take our chances with.

Questions and dissent are most important during an emergency. No you don’t get to memory hole this.

What do you think should happen today? Are you advocating for anything in particular?

I think laws should be passed that require schools to remain open. Public health authories should be sent to school to understand risks and benefits. Strong protection of 1A rights in the pending Supreme Court case. Fixing the learning loss is going to be a long term project but the new understanding of the importance of phonics is a great step. We need to do the same for math.

I agree with this. What happened in DC public schools and many other schools needs to be addressed. The idea that publicly funded public schools can just close for an entire school year, is insane.

I think we need rules in place linking prolonged school closures with teacher furloughs. You want to keep the schools closed for a year or more? Okay, then we need to furlough the staff and the money saved should be sent to families as a tax rebate that can be used toward private school, tutoring, etc.

DP. I don't know if I agree with that, but we need an urgent and ongoing evaluation of where students stand now and each year going forward to inform future decisions. My primary concern with the way public schools handled COVID is not necessarily that decision-makers were trying to protect the health, particularly the health of adults who would be in school buildings, but how little consideration has been given to the consequences of that protection for students. If unprecedented measures were needed to protect life, why weren't unprecedented options for flexibility or remediation considered (even for a fleeting second) to mitigate harm to children? With the seasonality we have seen, school in the summers and closures around the winter holidays would have mitigated risk and allowed some normalcy, yet that was never on the table.

You want to spend time punishing for past buy what do you want to do for kids on school now? The kids in school on 2023, 2024, at this moment in time, how do you want to serve them? Scoring political points by litigating the past won't.

I don't want to punish anyone. But I will point out that "experts" who lobbied for closed schools offered assurances that kids would be just fine when schools reopened, and they were wrong. I don't even have kids in primary education anymore, but it is clear that what we are doing isn't working, and no one is offering any solutions. All I hear is blame for parents and students. I want to hear ideas for solving these problems that aren't just business as usual.

Yes, parents are ultimately responsible for their kids. Surprised you are now in favor of a nanny state.

No one is going to accept a solution where we defenestrate the teachers who were part of the lockdown during COVID so don't spend precious time waiting for that. We will also not get rid of the concept of public schools. So with that out of the way what are your solutions?

I would start by admitting that there is a problem and the most vulnerable students have been affected the most. Can you admit there is a problem?

You propose that there is a problem, YOU propose a solution.

Sorry. The data says that there is a problem, not me. I can't fathom why you refuse to admit that kids have been disadvantaged by pandemic policies other than possibly not caring about them?

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Anonymous wrote:Good Lord OP’s obsession and anger is so weird.

You know it's not, you'll just never be able to reconcile the fact that you were so mislead and duped. It takes strength and courage to admit you were wrong. Maybe you'll get there someday.

Yeah. It really is. You are a complete loon.

Your name calling suggests this makes you very uncomfortable. Since you're still working to understand science, this will likely be a long process for you.

I am completely comfortable. You are just annoying the phuck out of me with your Dunning Krueger and weird fixation.

Love to hear it. But I'm not OP. There are multiple people in here agreeing about the failure. If you can't handle the conversation you can keep scrolling.

Sure. I just think it is completely bizarre y’all are all so completely worked up about this. Take a chill pill. It’s all good now.

You're the one so "phucking" annoyed. Take your own advice.

Naw. I instructed you to stop posting, didn’t I? Comply.

Lol. It will be ok. Deep breaths with the mask off.

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Anonymous wrote:Honestly at this point who cares. We did the best we could under a unique and heretofore inexperienced event. This is for scientists to be studying to plan for future pandemics. Getting angry now is ridiculous.

The problem is we weren’t allowed to ask questions and dissenting views were discouraged. Anytime you’re not allowed to ask questions or push back on something you should be concerned. The climate at the time didn’t allow questioning of precautions.

Because it was an EMERGENCY situation.
Having known several people who died or spent months in the hospital with Covid it was not something most of us wanted to just take our chances with.

Questions and dissent are most important during an emergency. No you don’t get to memory hole this.

What do you think should happen today? Are you advocating for anything in particular?

I think laws should be passed that require schools to remain open. Public health authories should be sent to school to understand risks and benefits. Strong protection of 1A rights in the pending Supreme Court case. Fixing the learning loss is going to be a long term project but the new understanding of the importance of phonics is a great step. We need to do the same for math.

I agree with this. What happened in DC public schools and many other schools needs to be addressed. The idea that publicly funded public schools can just close for an entire school year, is insane.

I think we need rules in place linking prolonged school closures with teacher furloughs. You want to keep the schools closed for a year or more? Okay, then we need to furlough the staff and the money saved should be sent to families as a tax rebate that can be used toward private school, tutoring, etc.

DP. I don't know if I agree with that, but we need an urgent and ongoing evaluation of where students stand now and each year going forward to inform future decisions. My primary concern with the way public schools handled COVID is not necessarily that decision-makers were trying to protect the health, particularly the health of adults who would be in school buildings, but how little consideration has been given to the consequences of that protection for students. If unprecedented measures were needed to protect life, why weren't unprecedented options for flexibility or remediation considered (even for a fleeting second) to mitigate harm to children? With the seasonality we have seen, school in the summers and closures around the winter holidays would have mitigated risk and allowed some normalcy, yet that was never on the table.

You want to spend time punishing for past buy what do you want to do for kids on school now? The kids in school on 2023, 2024, at this moment in time, how do you want to serve them? Scoring political points by litigating the past won't.

I don't want to punish anyone. But I will point out that "experts" who lobbied for closed schools offered assurances that kids would be just fine when schools reopened, and they were wrong. I don't even have kids in primary education anymore, but it is clear that what we are doing isn't working, and no one is offering any solutions. All I hear is blame for parents and students. I want to hear ideas for solving these problems that aren't just business as usual.

Yes, parents are ultimately responsible for their kids. Surprised you are now in favor of a nanny state.

No one is going to accept a solution where we defenestrate the teachers who were part of the lockdown during COVID so don't spend precious time waiting for that. We will also not get rid of the concept of public schools. So with that out of the way what are your solutions?

I would start by admitting that there is a problem and the most vulnerable students have been affected the most. Can you admit there is a problem?

You propose that there is a problem, YOU propose a solution.