Anonymous wrote:My kid got a 5 on AP Gov but got a B 2nd semester. I think the GPA is more important than the test score.

Anonymous wrote:My friend’s daughter goes to a public charter school in DC that exists to prepare kids to do well on the AP exams, according to her mom. Students cram all year and grades in class are based on their performance on practice tests. She was shocked when I said my kid had not taken a single practice exam but had been doing well in class and was studying independently. A totally different approach with different results (and a limited data set admittedly). Her kid scored 5s on all three exams she took this year as a ninth grader. My kid scored a 3.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We got a 3 on the first AP exam and realized that being ready for AP exams was serious business. Been scoring 5s since

The teachers/schools don't seem to be doing that great of a job preparing some of the kids for the exams, though.

Anonymous wrote:We got a 3 on the first AP exam and realized that being ready for AP exams was serious business. Been scoring 5s since

Anonymous wrote:We got a 3 on the first AP exam and realized that being ready for AP exams was serious business. Been scoring 5s since

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Anonymous wrote:Teacher here. Some of my strongest students in my AP classes are terrible test takers. I’ve never considered a score to be a solid indicator of college readiness. I have 20 years of experience watching average test takers (but great students) move on to strong colleges and advanced degrees. I have a relative with two masters and a PhD (all from great colleges) and he bombed the SAT and the GRE.

My own child just scored a 2 on one of his exams. I’m not that upset, and neither is he. He’ll be prepared for college and that score isn’t going to keep him out.

Genuine Question: How can someone be a strong student and a "terrible test taker"? Part of being a strong student involves demonstrating mastery of the subject matter. If you bomb all the tests and quizzes, then how are they demonstrating mastery?

That's like saying, "I'm an incredible actor. I just have terrible stage fright and freeze up on stage." You can't be a great actor if you can't perform when the spotlight is on....

And if you're not good at taking tests due to emotional/mental needs, a strong student should be self-aware and ensure they have the appropriate accommodations to compensate for that?

I’m the teacher PP.

There are many, many ways to demonstrate content knowledge. Multiple choice questions and formatted essays aren’t the only way. I actually prefer choice and project-based assignments for that very reason. I can actually see what my students know, and not what they memorized. (… and I am a highly regarded teacher who takes assessment methods courses on my own time each summer.)

People take test prep sessions to learn the skills associated with taking a test… the strategy. I have also had mediocre students who are good at test strategy.

I don’t see a clear correlation between high test scores and high performance.

Maybe there's not a 1:1 correlation between high test scores and high performance, but there's no way they're totally uncorrelated.

And while it's nice that you favor project-based assignments, they come with their own tradeoffs and downsides.

What's your solution? Just get rid of the AP exams altogether because....you don't like them? Or you think they're unreliable barometers of student knowledge and success?

Project-based assessments are very subjective, which opens up all kinds of biases and inconsistencies so I don't see trading one for the other as really solving the problem.

You’re simply being hyperbolic. Did I suggest… or even remotely imply… that we should get rid of AP tests? No, I didn’t. They are one data point.

I’m not sure why it’s a threatening notion that there are educators (many of us) who don’t put all of our eggs in a high-stakes test basket.

I get more valuable data regarding my students’ progress from project based assessments. I’m able to get a better handle on an individual student’s strengths and setbacks this way. I spend a ton of time doing this. I suppose I can throw an old AP test their way, which would save me a ton of time. I wouldn’t be serving the students nearly as well, though.

I actually value learning, the joy of learning, and the retention of knowledge. I don’t value high-stakes multiple choice assessments as much. I don’t think of my students as scores.

I suspect you care a lot about scores. Have at it. They are a great way to get into colleges. Just know they aren’t the only way. I’ve taught over 3,200 students so far in my career. I’ve learned not to base a student’s success off a test score. Good thing, too, since many mediocre test takers went on to be tremendously successful.

You're painting me with the same hyperbolic brush you're accusing me of.

I never said tests were the only thing that mattered. But I do think they're an important part of the learning process and students who struggle or fail at them should not be brushed aside and just chalked up to "some kids don't test well."

That's the main point I was making, as that line of talk and thinking seems to be more prevalent among parents and teachers and I don't think it's healthy or helpful to kids. It gives kids an out and an excuse from getting better at tests because some educators, like yourself, give them a hall pass that maybe they're just not a good test taker.

We should be teaching kids to develop the self-awareness to figure out why they're doing poorly on the test and implement strategies and tactics to overcome the hurdles and obstacles that are preventing them from doing well on the tests. It's called developing resilience and it's severely lacking in students today.

Soft skills like resiliency can be taught through essay revisions, project feedback, etc. Self awareness doesn’t need to be merely linked to test taking skills.

I agree these traits are lacking in students. I disagree that objective multiple choice tests are the way to teach them (or remotely the best way).

You say this as if tests are the only way students get evaluated throughout a class. They aren't. Throughout the course of any given class, there's a mixture of the exact things you mention (essays, projects, classwork, homework, etc.), which yes, does include tests. So that's already happening, which means kids are being evaluated on more than just tests?

Or is it that you specifically think the AP Exam itself is what's broken, because it is a multiple choice test? If so, what would you replace it with?

Also, doesn't throwing out tests harm the kids who are good at them and work hard to succeed at them? Why is their success invalidated to validate those who are "bad test takers"?

There’s no point for us to argue. I don’t disagree with your claims above. I never claimed that the AP test is broken, nor did I claim that we don’t use multiple choice as one form of many assessments.

Nobody has invalidated high-scoring students’ success. Nobody. Saying somebody has suggests insecurity. I just refuse to invalidate students’ potential because of lower test scores. There’s no reason to assume students are doomed because of a 2 or 3 on an AP exam. These can still be remarkably strong students. I’ve known many. Many.

DCUM is very stats-driven, to the point of forgetting we are talking about children

I've been teaching AP classes for 15 years and I have known incredibly intelligent students who received 2s, but they are NEVER "strong" students because they almost all have terrible work habits. There is a difference. So, I would disagree with the teacher above. These students aren't doomed, but neither are the kids receiving 2s "remarkably strong students."

I’m the PP. Are you comfortable with that word “never”? I just spent the past couple of minutes thinking back through my many years of teaching AP and IB. I can think of a good number of students who scores 2-ish scores who went on to great universities, advanced degrees, and successful careers. None of this would be possible if they weren’t strong students. One of my lower IB scores went to a student who is among the top of her class in a challenging nursing program right now. She has a strong work ethic, a lot of intellectual curiosity, and proven performance in places other than AP/IB exams.

“Never” is way too absolute of a word. I challenge you to think back. You really can’t think of one strong student who performed poorly on an AP exam? Really? And they all have poor work habits? Really?

No, I can't. My pass rates are high, and the only kids getting twos in my classes have poor work habits (or just don't get it - another disqualifier for being a "strong student.") Again, kids can progress and develop good habits and go on to do well in college. But in my experience, unless someone is deathly ill on test day, strong students who have worked during the year are not getting twos.

DP.. DC got a two on one of the AP tests. They had an A/B in the class all year, did all the assignments, went to class, studied for the AP test.

Granted, the way DC studied was not the most conducive to retaining information, however, IMO, grade inflation, and teachers not providing good feedback on assignments and tests give the students a false sense of competency in the subject.

My older DC had this teacher a couple of years ago, and said that this teacher was awful. Not only did the teacher not know the material well enough to teach it, but they provided almost no feedback.

So, teacher, I hope that you provide better feedback to your students so that they know what they need to work on.

It's exam technique they need to spend a little more time on.

They took the practice exam and went through the AP book. Maybe teachers need to spend a little more time on providing feedback on assignments.

Maybe it's both that's needed? If they don't cover the long answer questions and demonstrate how a certain number of facts / analysis needs to be included, the kid is going to tank because that's where the grade is weighted in the exam.

absolutely agree, it's both. But, I was responding to the teacher PP who stated that "students who have worked during the year aren't getting 2s". How do they have poor work habits, or aren't strong students if the student got As/Bs on their class grade? There's something wrong with the grading and the teacher.

Yes, I agree with that point. My DS took AP Gov't in 9th grade. He got A grades all year, in fact I think he ended the year with 100%. He worked hard and got a 3 in the exam. Totally ill-prepared.

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Anonymous wrote:Teacher here. Some of my strongest students in my AP classes are terrible test takers. I’ve never considered a score to be a solid indicator of college readiness. I have 20 years of experience watching average test takers (but great students) move on to strong colleges and advanced degrees. I have a relative with two masters and a PhD (all from great colleges) and he bombed the SAT and the GRE.

My own child just scored a 2 on one of his exams. I’m not that upset, and neither is he. He’ll be prepared for college and that score isn’t going to keep him out.

Genuine Question: How can someone be a strong student and a "terrible test taker"? Part of being a strong student involves demonstrating mastery of the subject matter. If you bomb all the tests and quizzes, then how are they demonstrating mastery?

That's like saying, "I'm an incredible actor. I just have terrible stage fright and freeze up on stage." You can't be a great actor if you can't perform when the spotlight is on....

And if you're not good at taking tests due to emotional/mental needs, a strong student should be self-aware and ensure they have the appropriate accommodations to compensate for that?

I’m the teacher PP.

There are many, many ways to demonstrate content knowledge. Multiple choice questions and formatted essays aren’t the only way. I actually prefer choice and project-based assignments for that very reason. I can actually see what my students know, and not what they memorized. (… and I am a highly regarded teacher who takes assessment methods courses on my own time each summer.)

People take test prep sessions to learn the skills associated with taking a test… the strategy. I have also had mediocre students who are good at test strategy.

I don’t see a clear correlation between high test scores and high performance.

Maybe there's not a 1:1 correlation between high test scores and high performance, but there's no way they're totally uncorrelated.

And while it's nice that you favor project-based assignments, they come with their own tradeoffs and downsides.

What's your solution? Just get rid of the AP exams altogether because....you don't like them? Or you think they're unreliable barometers of student knowledge and success?

Project-based assessments are very subjective, which opens up all kinds of biases and inconsistencies so I don't see trading one for the other as really solving the problem.

You’re simply being hyperbolic. Did I suggest… or even remotely imply… that we should get rid of AP tests? No, I didn’t. They are one data point.

I’m not sure why it’s a threatening notion that there are educators (many of us) who don’t put all of our eggs in a high-stakes test basket.

I get more valuable data regarding my students’ progress from project based assessments. I’m able to get a better handle on an individual student’s strengths and setbacks this way. I spend a ton of time doing this. I suppose I can throw an old AP test their way, which would save me a ton of time. I wouldn’t be serving the students nearly as well, though.

I actually value learning, the joy of learning, and the retention of knowledge. I don’t value high-stakes multiple choice assessments as much. I don’t think of my students as scores.

I suspect you care a lot about scores. Have at it. They are a great way to get into colleges. Just know they aren’t the only way. I’ve taught over 3,200 students so far in my career. I’ve learned not to base a student’s success off a test score. Good thing, too, since many mediocre test takers went on to be tremendously successful.

You're painting me with the same hyperbolic brush you're accusing me of.

I never said tests were the only thing that mattered. But I do think they're an important part of the learning process and students who struggle or fail at them should not be brushed aside and just chalked up to "some kids don't test well."

That's the main point I was making, as that line of talk and thinking seems to be more prevalent among parents and teachers and I don't think it's healthy or helpful to kids. It gives kids an out and an excuse from getting better at tests because some educators, like yourself, give them a hall pass that maybe they're just not a good test taker.

We should be teaching kids to develop the self-awareness to figure out why they're doing poorly on the test and implement strategies and tactics to overcome the hurdles and obstacles that are preventing them from doing well on the tests. It's called developing resilience and it's severely lacking in students today.

Soft skills like resiliency can be taught through essay revisions, project feedback, etc. Self awareness doesn’t need to be merely linked to test taking skills.

I agree these traits are lacking in students. I disagree that objective multiple choice tests are the way to teach them (or remotely the best way).

You say this as if tests are the only way students get evaluated throughout a class. They aren't. Throughout the course of any given class, there's a mixture of the exact things you mention (essays, projects, classwork, homework, etc.), which yes, does include tests. So that's already happening, which means kids are being evaluated on more than just tests?

Or is it that you specifically think the AP Exam itself is what's broken, because it is a multiple choice test? If so, what would you replace it with?

Also, doesn't throwing out tests harm the kids who are good at them and work hard to succeed at them? Why is their success invalidated to validate those who are "bad test takers"?

There’s no point for us to argue. I don’t disagree with your claims above. I never claimed that the AP test is broken, nor did I claim that we don’t use multiple choice as one form of many assessments.

Nobody has invalidated high-scoring students’ success. Nobody. Saying somebody has suggests insecurity. I just refuse to invalidate students’ potential because of lower test scores. There’s no reason to assume students are doomed because of a 2 or 3 on an AP exam. These can still be remarkably strong students. I’ve known many. Many.

DCUM is very stats-driven, to the point of forgetting we are talking about children

I've been teaching AP classes for 15 years and I have known incredibly intelligent students who received 2s, but they are NEVER "strong" students because they almost all have terrible work habits. There is a difference. So, I would disagree with the teacher above. These students aren't doomed, but neither are the kids receiving 2s "remarkably strong students."

I’m the PP. Are you comfortable with that word “never”? I just spent the past couple of minutes thinking back through my many years of teaching AP and IB. I can think of a good number of students who scores 2-ish scores who went on to great universities, advanced degrees, and successful careers. None of this would be possible if they weren’t strong students. One of my lower IB scores went to a student who is among the top of her class in a challenging nursing program right now. She has a strong work ethic, a lot of intellectual curiosity, and proven performance in places other than AP/IB exams.

“Never” is way too absolute of a word. I challenge you to think back. You really can’t think of one strong student who performed poorly on an AP exam? Really? And they all have poor work habits? Really?

No, I can't. My pass rates are high, and the only kids getting twos in my classes have poor work habits (or just don't get it - another disqualifier for being a "strong student.") Again, kids can progress and develop good habits and go on to do well in college. But in my experience, unless someone is deathly ill on test day, strong students who have worked during the year are not getting twos.

DP.. DC got a two on one of the AP tests. They had an A/B in the class all year, did all the assignments, went to class, studied for the AP test.

Granted, the way DC studied was not the most conducive to retaining information, however, IMO, grade inflation, and teachers not providing good feedback on assignments and tests give the students a false sense of competency in the subject.

My older DC had this teacher a couple of years ago, and said that this teacher was awful. Not only did the teacher not know the material well enough to teach it, but they provided almost no feedback.

So, teacher, I hope that you provide better feedback to your students so that they know what they need to work on.

It's exam technique they need to spend a little more time on.

They took the practice exam and went through the AP book. Maybe teachers need to spend a little more time on providing feedback on assignments.

Maybe it's both that's needed? If they don't cover the long answer questions and demonstrate how a certain number of facts / analysis needs to be included, the kid is going to tank because that's where the grade is weighted in the exam.

absolutely agree, it's both. But, I was responding to the teacher PP who stated that "students who have worked during the year aren't getting 2s". How do they have poor work habits, or aren't strong students if the student got As/Bs on their class grade? There's something wrong with the grading and the teacher.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Teacher here. Some of my strongest students in my AP classes are terrible test takers. I’ve never considered a score to be a solid indicator of college readiness. I have 20 years of experience watching average test takers (but great students) move on to strong colleges and advanced degrees. I have a relative with two masters and a PhD (all from great colleges) and he bombed the SAT and the GRE.

My own child just scored a 2 on one of his exams. I’m not that upset, and neither is he. He’ll be prepared for college and that score isn’t going to keep him out.

Genuine Question: How can someone be a strong student and a "terrible test taker"? Part of being a strong student involves demonstrating mastery of the subject matter. If you bomb all the tests and quizzes, then how are they demonstrating mastery?

That's like saying, "I'm an incredible actor. I just have terrible stage fright and freeze up on stage." You can't be a great actor if you can't perform when the spotlight is on....

And if you're not good at taking tests due to emotional/mental needs, a strong student should be self-aware and ensure they have the appropriate accommodations to compensate for that?

I’m the teacher PP.

There are many, many ways to demonstrate content knowledge. Multiple choice questions and formatted essays aren’t the only way. I actually prefer choice and project-based assignments for that very reason. I can actually see what my students know, and not what they memorized. (… and I am a highly regarded teacher who takes assessment methods courses on my own time each summer.)

People take test prep sessions to learn the skills associated with taking a test… the strategy. I have also had mediocre students who are good at test strategy.

I don’t see a clear correlation between high test scores and high performance.

Maybe there's not a 1:1 correlation between high test scores and high performance, but there's no way they're totally uncorrelated.

And while it's nice that you favor project-based assignments, they come with their own tradeoffs and downsides.

What's your solution? Just get rid of the AP exams altogether because....you don't like them? Or you think they're unreliable barometers of student knowledge and success?

Project-based assessments are very subjective, which opens up all kinds of biases and inconsistencies so I don't see trading one for the other as really solving the problem.

You’re simply being hyperbolic. Did I suggest… or even remotely imply… that we should get rid of AP tests? No, I didn’t. They are one data point.

I’m not sure why it’s a threatening notion that there are educators (many of us) who don’t put all of our eggs in a high-stakes test basket.

I get more valuable data regarding my students’ progress from project based assessments. I’m able to get a better handle on an individual student’s strengths and setbacks this way. I spend a ton of time doing this. I suppose I can throw an old AP test their way, which would save me a ton of time. I wouldn’t be serving the students nearly as well, though.

I actually value learning, the joy of learning, and the retention of knowledge. I don’t value high-stakes multiple choice assessments as much. I don’t think of my students as scores.

I suspect you care a lot about scores. Have at it. They are a great way to get into colleges. Just know they aren’t the only way. I’ve taught over 3,200 students so far in my career. I’ve learned not to base a student’s success off a test score. Good thing, too, since many mediocre test takers went on to be tremendously successful.

You're painting me with the same hyperbolic brush you're accusing me of.

I never said tests were the only thing that mattered. But I do think they're an important part of the learning process and students who struggle or fail at them should not be brushed aside and just chalked up to "some kids don't test well."

That's the main point I was making, as that line of talk and thinking seems to be more prevalent among parents and teachers and I don't think it's healthy or helpful to kids. It gives kids an out and an excuse from getting better at tests because some educators, like yourself, give them a hall pass that maybe they're just not a good test taker.

We should be teaching kids to develop the self-awareness to figure out why they're doing poorly on the test and implement strategies and tactics to overcome the hurdles and obstacles that are preventing them from doing well on the tests. It's called developing resilience and it's severely lacking in students today.

Soft skills like resiliency can be taught through essay revisions, project feedback, etc. Self awareness doesn’t need to be merely linked to test taking skills.

I agree these traits are lacking in students. I disagree that objective multiple choice tests are the way to teach them (or remotely the best way).

You say this as if tests are the only way students get evaluated throughout a class. They aren't. Throughout the course of any given class, there's a mixture of the exact things you mention (essays, projects, classwork, homework, etc.), which yes, does include tests. So that's already happening, which means kids are being evaluated on more than just tests?

Or is it that you specifically think the AP Exam itself is what's broken, because it is a multiple choice test? If so, what would you replace it with?

Also, doesn't throwing out tests harm the kids who are good at them and work hard to succeed at them? Why is their success invalidated to validate those who are "bad test takers"?

There’s no point for us to argue. I don’t disagree with your claims above. I never claimed that the AP test is broken, nor did I claim that we don’t use multiple choice as one form of many assessments.

Nobody has invalidated high-scoring students’ success. Nobody. Saying somebody has suggests insecurity. I just refuse to invalidate students’ potential because of lower test scores. There’s no reason to assume students are doomed because of a 2 or 3 on an AP exam. These can still be remarkably strong students. I’ve known many. Many.

DCUM is very stats-driven, to the point of forgetting we are talking about children

I've been teaching AP classes for 15 years and I have known incredibly intelligent students who received 2s, but they are NEVER "strong" students because they almost all have terrible work habits. There is a difference. So, I would disagree with the teacher above. These students aren't doomed, but neither are the kids receiving 2s "remarkably strong students."

I’m the PP. Are you comfortable with that word “never”? I just spent the past couple of minutes thinking back through my many years of teaching AP and IB. I can think of a good number of students who scores 2-ish scores who went on to great universities, advanced degrees, and successful careers. None of this would be possible if they weren’t strong students. One of my lower IB scores went to a student who is among the top of her class in a challenging nursing program right now. She has a strong work ethic, a lot of intellectual curiosity, and proven performance in places other than AP/IB exams.

“Never” is way too absolute of a word. I challenge you to think back. You really can’t think of one strong student who performed poorly on an AP exam? Really? And they all have poor work habits? Really?

No, I can't. My pass rates are high, and the only kids getting twos in my classes have poor work habits (or just don't get it - another disqualifier for being a "strong student.") Again, kids can progress and develop good habits and go on to do well in college. But in my experience, unless someone is deathly ill on test day, strong students who have worked during the year are not getting twos.

DP.. DC got a two on one of the AP tests. They had an A/B in the class all year, did all the assignments, went to class, studied for the AP test.

Granted, the way DC studied was not the most conducive to retaining information, however, IMO, grade inflation, and teachers not providing good feedback on assignments and tests give the students a false sense of competency in the subject.

My older DC had this teacher a couple of years ago, and said that this teacher was awful. Not only did the teacher not know the material well enough to teach it, but they provided almost no feedback.

So, teacher, I hope that you provide better feedback to your students so that they know what they need to work on.

It's exam technique they need to spend a little more time on.

They took the practice exam and went through the AP book. Maybe teachers need to spend a little more time on providing feedback on assignments.

Maybe it's both that's needed? If they don't cover the long answer questions and demonstrate how a certain number of facts / analysis needs to be included, the kid is going to tank because that's where the grade is weighted in the exam.

absolutely agree, it's both. But, I was responding to the teacher PP who stated that "students who have worked during the year aren't getting 2s". How do they have poor work habits, or aren't strong students if the student got As/Bs on their class grade? There's something wrong with the grading and the teacher.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kids got 1s and 2s on their AP exams, despite getting A's and B's in the class. Like you, I think it also proves they're probably not college ready, which I kind of already knew and have warned them about. I think freshman year for one of my kids is going to be brutal. But again, I knew that because he struggled massively with the SAT.

This is weird, plenty of people go to college and graduate without taking any AP classes or tests. In fact, I'd say close to the majority in your typical, run of the mill school. DC must've really screwed with your sense of reality. I'm a public HS teacher in NC and students attend and graduate from college without AP classes. Some choose dual enrollment at the CC to earn credits, some go in with none at all.

Some of these kids are 14/15.. of course they aren't ready.

My DC got a 2 and a 3. They studied for the AP exams. Mostly As on the report card.

I told DC don't fret. These are college level courses, and most 14/15 yr olds aren't ready for college level courses. I took APUSH at 16 (junior year in HS), and got a 3. I also went to a crappy college due to financial reasons. I was a late bloomer, with a late bday. Same as my DC.