Anonymous
Post 09/30/2022 16:30     Subject: Least stressful Top 30 or so schools
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:UVA, pretty laid back unless you are in pre-med, then it is cut throat and intense. Good balance of work hard, play hard.

UNC also comes to mind.


Vanderbilt, except for pre-med track. I’m an Econ grad.


I think vandy has changed in the last 5 yrs. I’m sitting on the commons as i write this and the vibe is … resolute and dutiful. My sophomore feels duped because he too read all the “happy students” rankings. He says it’s a boring slog and no one wants to socialize because work


Ask him if the southern kids feel the same way
Anonymous
Post 09/30/2022 14:39     Subject: Least stressful Top 30 or so schools
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Is top 30 the new top 20?


Oh FFS. Splitting hairs on rankings that are meaningless to begin with is beyond stupid. Any tiny amount of critical thought could point you to several fatal flaws in the USNWR ranking methodology.

1. 20% is based on peer assessment. Basically a popularity contest. How many college presidents know anything about 99% of the colleges they are “assessing” other than where they’ve been in prior years’ rankings? Hint: not many. It would be like ranking restaurants by asking restaurant managers what they think of restaurants they’ve never been to. And this is by far the single biggest factor. So if College A rates College B highly because College A’s president sent them a nice Harry & David’s at the holidays, that alone moves them up several spots, without having ANYTHING to do with academic excellence.
2. Weighting of graduation rates. The biggest factor in graduation rates is not the academics at the school, but non-academic factors of the students. Students from non-upper classes struggle to stay in college for predominantly financial, non intellectual, reasons. The rankings basically punish schools for not filling up with UMC and wealthy applicants.
3. Endowment. So much of today’s endowment dollars go to “amenities”. To attract UMC and wealthy students (see #2 above), you need to built swanky dorms with luxury amenities. Again, this may enhance a student’s “experience”, but has no bearing on academic excellence.

There are, what, 3000+ colleges in the US? There is no methodology that could possibly accurately rank them, not even taking composites of USNWR, WSJ, Forbes, etc. They basically measure the same things with different weights. Any attempt to do this is folly. Trying to rank order, e.g., Dartmouth and UChicago and Duke based on what USNWR says about them is asinine. They are different institutions with different strengths and weaknesses that appeal to different candidates. I don’t know why we can’t just leave it at that and stop obsessing over which one is “better” or “best”.


All of USNWR is basically "popularity" amongst other schools. I can only imagine the behind the scenes negotiations between schools----Ill vote for you if you vote for us.

Just look at the Engineering rankings for undergrad---all of the big schools and well known schools come out at the top---because obviously everyone has heard of GATech and UIUC and Stanford, MIT, etc. But most have not heard of WPI Rose Hulman and other excellent smaller schools. So those schools are "underrated" because it's a popularity contest.

So obviously the big schools are great schools, but the ranking system by popularity ensures not much will change


Totally agree - unfortunately, it's great clickbait for these publications, and makes for great pissing contests amongst parents (probably DCUM parents more than others), even the best of whom get caught of in the process and think they could short-change their kid's efforts and future if they don't send them to X school. Ultimately, it ends up costing many parents thousands of dollars because we send our kid to a private that's $70-80K per year (I posted before that I would only even consider this for an Ivy-like school) when UMD, UMBC and Towson are going to be just fine for Marylanders and my gosh there are a million great in-state options for Virginians.

It would actually be an interesting exercise for parents on LinkedIn to check their networks - you'll see that many of your most esteemed colleagues and those who you consider the most successful and brilliant have come from colleges that you've never heard of before. Take a look.

Anonymous
Post 09/30/2022 14:28     Subject: Least stressful Top 30 or so schools
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Is top 30 the new top 20?


Oh FFS. Splitting hairs on rankings that are meaningless to begin with is beyond stupid. Any tiny amount of critical thought could point you to several fatal flaws in the USNWR ranking methodology.

1. 20% is based on peer assessment. Basically a popularity contest. How many college presidents know anything about 99% of the colleges they are “assessing” other than where they’ve been in prior years’ rankings? Hint: not many. It would be like ranking restaurants by asking restaurant managers what they think of restaurants they’ve never been to. And this is by far the single biggest factor. So if College A rates College B highly because College A’s president sent them a nice Harry & David’s at the holidays, that alone moves them up several spots, without having ANYTHING to do with academic excellence.
2. Weighting of graduation rates. The biggest factor in graduation rates is not the academics at the school, but non-academic factors of the students. Students from non-upper classes struggle to stay in college for predominantly financial, non intellectual, reasons. The rankings basically punish schools for not filling up with UMC and wealthy applicants.
3. Endowment. So much of today’s endowment dollars go to “amenities”. To attract UMC and wealthy students (see #2 above), you need to built swanky dorms with luxury amenities. Again, this may enhance a student’s “experience”, but has no bearing on academic excellence.

There are, what, 3000+ colleges in the US? There is no methodology that could possibly accurately rank them, not even taking composites of USNWR, WSJ, Forbes, etc. They basically measure the same things with different weights. Any attempt to do this is folly. Trying to rank order, e.g., Dartmouth and UChicago and Duke based on what USNWR says about them is asinine. They are different institutions with different strengths and weaknesses that appeal to different candidates. I don’t know why we can’t just leave it at that and stop obsessing over which one is “better” or “best”.


Yes, for looking at graduation rates, I always delve into data from the university to see why the rate might not be 95%+. That means (for me) looking at % first generation, % low income, %Out of Country. All 3 of those things can easily contribute to taking longer, dropping out, transferring for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with the university itself. First gen students have it much harder with nobody at home to help guide them in this process. Slip up once and miss taking a course that is only offered each fall that is a prerequisite for the next courses and you will not graduate in 4 years. Low income students might be worried about how to pay the bills, or may need to take a semester off because the money is not available or they need to go home to help the family for some reason and take a semester off. Foreign students may struggle being far away from home and not able to afford to visit family. So if you break down "the real why's" for a lower graduation rate, I'm fine if it's because any of the above reasons.
Also, if school has students doing COOPs those students will not graduate in 4 years typically. If engineering is a large major, many engineering students take more than 4 years to get thru---as most engineering programs require 18-19 credits each semester (norm is typically 15) and sometimes students just need a small break and decide to stretch it to a 9th semester. To me, all are valid reasons and nothing that makes a school "lower ranked" IMO.
Anonymous
Post 09/30/2022 14:18     Subject: Least stressful Top 30 or so schools
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Is top 30 the new top 20?


Oh FFS. Splitting hairs on rankings that are meaningless to begin with is beyond stupid. Any tiny amount of critical thought could point you to several fatal flaws in the USNWR ranking methodology.

1. 20% is based on peer assessment. Basically a popularity contest. How many college presidents know anything about 99% of the colleges they are “assessing” other than where they’ve been in prior years’ rankings? Hint: not many. It would be like ranking restaurants by asking restaurant managers what they think of restaurants they’ve never been to. And this is by far the single biggest factor. So if College A rates College B highly because College A’s president sent them a nice Harry & David’s at the holidays, that alone moves them up several spots, without having ANYTHING to do with academic excellence.
2. Weighting of graduation rates. The biggest factor in graduation rates is not the academics at the school, but non-academic factors of the students. Students from non-upper classes struggle to stay in college for predominantly financial, non intellectual, reasons. The rankings basically punish schools for not filling up with UMC and wealthy applicants.
3. Endowment. So much of today’s endowment dollars go to “amenities”. To attract UMC and wealthy students (see #2 above), you need to built swanky dorms with luxury amenities. Again, this may enhance a student’s “experience”, but has no bearing on academic excellence.

There are, what, 3000+ colleges in the US? There is no methodology that could possibly accurately rank them, not even taking composites of USNWR, WSJ, Forbes, etc. They basically measure the same things with different weights. Any attempt to do this is folly. Trying to rank order, e.g., Dartmouth and UChicago and Duke based on what USNWR says about them is asinine. They are different institutions with different strengths and weaknesses that appeal to different candidates. I don’t know why we can’t just leave it at that and stop obsessing over which one is “better” or “best”.


All of USNWR is basically "popularity" amongst other schools. I can only imagine the behind the scenes negotiations between schools----Ill vote for you if you vote for us.

Just look at the Engineering rankings for undergrad---all of the big schools and well known schools come out at the top---because obviously everyone has heard of GATech and UIUC and Stanford, MIT, etc. But most have not heard of WPI Rose Hulman and other excellent smaller schools. So those schools are "underrated" because it's a popularity contest.

So obviously the big schools are great schools, but the ranking system by popularity ensures not much will change
Anonymous
Post 09/30/2022 14:12     Subject: Re:Least stressful Top 30 or so schools
U of Miami is pretty low stress academically
Anonymous
Post 09/30/2022 13:42     Subject: Least stressful Top 30 or so schools
Anonymous wrote:Laidback, yet very smart, DS starting college search. Probably economic, math. Would like top-notch academics without the ultra-competitive environment. Is it even possible? Suggestions?


A smaller university/college in a more rural area would probably be better for this than one in an urban/suburban area
Anonymous
Post 09/30/2022 13:37     Subject: Least stressful Top 30 or so schools
Anonymous wrote:It’s not but has some well regarded programs.
Anonymous
Post 09/30/2022 13:10     Subject: Least stressful Top 30 or so schools
Anonymous wrote:a kid who goes to the 400th best school can be just as successful as someone who went to a top 30 school. pay no attention to rankings, go where they are happy and enjoy it. The rest will all play out.

one of my favorite sayings:

I know a homeless guy with a harvard degree and a college dropout that lives in a mansion.


I agree with this with a slight caveat. If my kid got into an Ivy-like (say top 15-ish) school, I might say it's worth being unhappy (if it's tolerable) for the connections that people speak of that come from those schools. However, after those schools, I really don't think it matters if a kid goes to BU, Tulane, Wisconsin, Delaware, JMU, Podunk community college, whatever. At that point, go where you think you'll be happy and get the most for your coin.
Anonymous
Post 09/30/2022 13:08     Subject: Least stressful Top 30 or so schools
Anonymous wrote:a kid who goes to the 400th best school can be just as successful as someone who went to a top 30 school. pay no attention to rankings, go where they are happy and enjoy it. The rest will all play out.

one of my favorite sayings:

I know a homeless guy with a harvard degree and a college dropout that lives in a mansion.


Ok, now do you want to discuss the relative odds that a guy with a harvard degree will be homeless vs the odds that a college drop out will live in a mansion?
Anonymous
Post 09/30/2022 13:05     Subject: Least stressful Top 30 or so schools
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Is top 30 the new top 20?


Oh FFS. Splitting hairs on rankings that are meaningless to begin with is beyond stupid. Any tiny amount of critical thought could point you to several fatal flaws in the USNWR ranking methodology.

1. 20% is based on peer assessment. Basically a popularity contest. How many college presidents know anything about 99% of the colleges they are “assessing” other than where they’ve been in prior years’ rankings? Hint: not many. It would be like ranking restaurants by asking restaurant managers what they think of restaurants they’ve never been to. And this is by far the single biggest factor. So if College A rates College B highly because College A’s president sent them a nice Harry & David’s at the holidays, that alone moves them up several spots, without having ANYTHING to do with academic excellence.
2. Weighting of graduation rates. The biggest factor in graduation rates is not the academics at the school, but non-academic factors of the students. Students from non-upper classes struggle to stay in college for predominantly financial, non intellectual, reasons. The rankings basically punish schools for not filling up with UMC and wealthy applicants.
3. Endowment. So much of today’s endowment dollars go to “amenities”. To attract UMC and wealthy students (see #2 above), you need to built swanky dorms with luxury amenities. Again, this may enhance a student’s “experience”, but has no bearing on academic excellence.

There are, what, 3000+ colleges in the US? There is no methodology that could possibly accurately rank them, not even taking composites of USNWR, WSJ, Forbes, etc. They basically measure the same things with different weights. Any attempt to do this is folly. Trying to rank order, e.g., Dartmouth and UChicago and Duke based on what USNWR says about them is asinine. They are different institutions with different strengths and weaknesses that appeal to different candidates. I don’t know why we can’t just leave it at that and stop obsessing over which one is “better” or “best”.


Well said!
Anonymous
Post 09/30/2022 11:20     Subject: Least stressful Top 30 or so schools
a kid who goes to the 400th best school can be just as successful as someone who went to a top 30 school. pay no attention to rankings, go where they are happy and enjoy it. The rest will all play out.

one of my favorite sayings:

I know a homeless guy with a harvard degree and a college dropout that lives in a mansion.
Anonymous
Post 09/30/2022 11:14     Subject: Re:Least stressful Top 30 or so schools
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Dartmouth College for economics--if your son likes to celebrate life frequently as Dartmouth has a very social atmosphere.

For math and/or economics with less partying than Dartmouth College, consider Bowdoin College.

University of Virginia for economics.

Vanderbilt University for economics.

Most SLACs offer a less intense environment. Hard to narrow down SLACs without knowing more about your son's likes and dislikes.



Not Vanderbilt for economics.

- vandy current parent. Nashville is great, the people of Nashville are a blast. Vanderbilt is not a chill place in math/econ/medicine


Why "not Vanderbilt for economics" ?

Are you asserting that Vandy econ is intense or that it is bad ?


+1. PP, can you elaborate? Vandy is my kid’s first choice and they will likely major in economics.



Pp parent here. Vandy is intense in the difficult majors. My son’s hallmates in peabody taking education seem to have more free time but that’s an N of about 4
Anonymous
Post 09/30/2022 11:10     Subject: Least stressful Top 30 or so schools
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:UVA, pretty laid back unless you are in pre-med, then it is cut throat and intense. Good balance of work hard, play hard.

UNC also comes to mind.


Vanderbilt, except for pre-med track. I’m an Econ grad.


I think vandy has changed in the last 5 yrs. I’m sitting on the commons as i write this and the vibe is … resolute and dutiful. My sophomore feels duped because he too read all the “happy students” rankings. He says it’s a boring slog and no one wants to socialize because work
Anonymous
Post 09/30/2022 10:57     Subject: Re:Least stressful Top 30 or so schools
Anonymous wrote:If he truly wants non-stressful, he needs the courage to march to the beat of his own drum. I turned down a top 20 school to go to a warm little school far outside the top ranks. I then ended up in a top 5 for grad school because by then I was ok with the stressed out peers. And yes, the kids who go to top 30 are stressed out and a lot of them are miserable.

What he wants is contradictory. If environment really matters, he needs to go outside the top 30.


+1
Anonymous
Post 09/30/2022 10:16     Subject: Re:Least stressful Top 30 or so schools
If he truly wants non-stressful, he needs the courage to march to the beat of his own drum. I turned down a top 20 school to go to a warm little school far outside the top ranks. I then ended up in a top 5 for grad school because by then I was ok with the stressed out peers. And yes, the kids who go to top 30 are stressed out and a lot of them are miserable.

What he wants is contradictory. If environment really matters, he needs to go outside the top 30.