Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:If your beloved puppy drags diarrhea all across the rug, you clean it up and still love him. It's like that. Sometimes the love is greater than the infraction.

You just compared cheating to diarrhea. And your partner to a dog.

The point of marriage is that you commit to honesty, fidelity, monogamy. That’s the whole point. If you can’t hack it then don’t stay married. And honestly, if someone can’t hack it then what they’ve messed up is not a contingent part of the relationship but the core of it. Very hard to come back and build a true love after that.

Me thinks you don't understand analogies.

Making messes in the house is natural and to be expected for a pet.
Sleeping with another person and lying about it is a choice and a massive betrayal for a spouse.

Stop being dense.

Duh, cheating is betrayal.

Anyway, because you clearly are unable to synthesize an analogy, the point is when you really love someone, you can forgive them and really move on. Or, if you can't, you can't. Complaining won't get anybody anywhere.

The whole “when you really love someone, you can forgive them and really move on” shifts the blame of the infidelity from the perpetrator to the victim. The breaking of the relationship becomes the fault of the victim for being unable to forgive instead of the fault of the perpetrator for breaking a promise of monogamy.

Infidelity, particularly repeated infidelity is a serious form of emotional abuse. It involves lying and manipulation. It is a betrayal that breaks the trust that is the foundation of any intimate relationship. It often creates a kind of long term PTSD.

I really loved my DH before I found out about his infidelity. I really loved him afterwards. But, I recognized that his behavior was unsafe and unhealthy for me. I also realized that I deserved better than to be tied for life to someone who lied and manipulated me like that.

Love is not some uncontrollable force. I chose to fall out of love with him. I ended my relationship with him. I stopped seeing him as much and stopped investing my time, energy and thoughts about him.

TBH, I felt a huge sense of relief the day I kicked him out of the house, and that sense of peace and healthiness only grew the more distance I put between us.

I would no more use live to justify staying with a cheater than I would use love to stay with someone who hit me. I have been in both situations. They are the same except the hitter leaves a mark that society can see. The cheater leaves a mark as well - you just can’t see it.

This is wild. Your reaction seems so extreme to me. There is so much more to marriage than just sex.

It's not extreme to me, and I'm the person who counts. I explicitly negotiated for monogamy with my DH when we were dating and made it clear to him that non-monogamy was a deal-breaker for me. To me, there is a lot more to marriage than sex, but there is no marriage without sex with a person I can trust. IMO, there is no marriage without trust and honesty.

Trust and honesty are the foundation of safety in a relationship.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd read Esther Perel's books as a start.

please don't. She's an affair apologist and implies the marriage or the BS, had something to do with it.

Many people believe that the marriage had something to do with the cheating. Yes, there are some men and women who will cheat no matter what and have no morals. But there are others who are absolutely cheating in response to a bad marriage and underlying problems. I know it’s hard to acknowledge this, but it’s the truth.

the bad marriage may cause them to be unhappy, but it doesn't cause them to cheat. Poor personal integrity and poor interpersonal skills causes a person to cheat. My DH cheated on me. I would have been entirely justified in cheating on him. I did think about it and was presented with many opportunities. Did I take any of them? No. Because I can use my words.

This is like saying your wife is annoying and so you were justified to beat her.

Anonymous wrote:My heart breaks for you. I went through this in 2017 and still have nightmares about it. But my husband quit drinking right away, joined AA and made a 100% full on change to his life and commitment to his family. If your husband can commit fully to recovery and dedication to you and your family, things will be okay. Plus a lot of counseling!

That's wonderful. It's nice to know some people can recover.

My heart breaks for you. I went through this in 2017 and still have nightmares about it. But my husband quit drinking right away, joined AA and made a 100% full on change to his life and commitment to his family. If your husband can commit fully to recovery and dedication to you and your family, things will be okay. Plus a lot of counseling!

Anonymous wrote:Yeah Esther Perel is problematic for me. I agree with some of her observations about monogamy being at odds with our programming, but I think she really doesn't get the trauma aspect of being cheated on. For however long the cheating has been going on, your reality has been a lie, served up on a platter by the person you trusted most. It cuts very deep.

Look, obviously no romantic partner is perfect. Every relationship has areas for improvement. But implying or outright stating that cheating is a result of those problems really lets the cheater off the hook. Your life isn't going to be perfect every second. It's on you to have healthy coping mechanisms and communication skills. "Oh sorry boss, I know I stole from the company, but you were expecting too much of me, so let's talk about that instead."

"I couldn't figure out how to talk to you about hard stuff without traumatizing you, blowing up our relationship, and exposing you to STDs . . . you understand, right? I mean, you NEVER wash the dishes like you say you will . . ."

Exactly. And what the op who would theoretically stay with the cheater doesn’t understand is that if they are cheating on sex it’s very typical that they are lying about other parts of themselves and the relationship. And it never ends. For some people it is a slip up. For others a lifestyle.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
This. I have friends married to spouses who have never cheating but they have broken some trust in the marriage in many other ways ( verbally abusive, financially irresponsible, gambling etc).

In the last few months, I myself have gambled and lost 10k in the stock market without my DH's consent( we check in with each other for any expense above 3k and I did not check in because I was so sure that I will put it back into my checking in no time). I broke his trust there.

Should these lead straight to divorce as well?

As a guy, I'd forgive losing $10k on the stock market but could never forgive you taking some other guy's d*ck, just saying.

I think that is most men's view.

Anonymous wrote:Yeah Esther Perel is problematic for me. I agree with some of her observations about monogamy being at odds with our programming, but I think she really doesn't get the trauma aspect of being cheated on. For however long the cheating has been going on, your reality has been a lie, served up on a platter by the person you trusted most. It cuts very deep.

Look, obviously no romantic partner is perfect. Every relationship has areas for improvement. But implying or outright stating that cheating is a result of those problems really lets the cheater off the hook. Your life isn't going to be perfect every second. It's on you to have healthy coping mechanisms and communication skills. "Oh sorry boss, I know I stole from the company, but you were expecting too much of me, so let's talk about that instead."

"I couldn't figure out how to talk to you about hard stuff without traumatizing you, blowing up our relationship, and exposing you to STDs . . . you understand, right? I mean, you NEVER wash the dishes like you say you will . . ."

Exactly! Also she totally glorifies staying married to a cheater. “These women are strong, they are heroes.” Okay, maybe some are, and often spouses who stay with cheaters are unjustifiably insulted. But some are just materialistic, some are too scared to leave, and some people who do leave are brave heroes too.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd read Esther Perel's books as a start.

please don't. She's an affair apologist and implies the marriage or the BS, had something to do with it.

Many people believe that the marriage had something to do with the cheating. Yes, there are some men and women who will cheat no matter what and have no morals. But there are others who are absolutely cheating in response to a bad marriage and underlying problems. I know it’s hard to acknowledge this, but it’s the truth.

Both people are in the "bad marriage." Only one cheated. The one with no morals or empathy.

Yeah Esther Perel is problematic for me. I agree with some of her observations about monogamy being at odds with our programming, but I think she really doesn't get the trauma aspect of being cheated on. For however long the cheating has been going on, your reality has been a lie, served up on a platter by the person you trusted most. It cuts very deep.

Look, obviously no romantic partner is perfect. Every relationship has areas for improvement. But implying or outright stating that cheating is a result of those problems really lets the cheater off the hook. Your life isn't going to be perfect every second. It's on you to have healthy coping mechanisms and communication skills. "Oh sorry boss, I know I stole from the company, but you were expecting too much of me, so let's talk about that instead."

"I couldn't figure out how to talk to you about hard stuff without traumatizing you, blowing up our relationship, and exposing you to STDs . . . you understand, right? I mean, you NEVER wash the dishes like you say you will . . ."

please don't. She's an affair apologist and implies the marriage or the BS, had something to do with it.


Many people believe that the marriage had something to do with the cheating. Yes, there are some men and women who will cheat no matter what and have no morals. But there are others who are absolutely cheating in response to a bad marriage and underlying problems. I know it’s hard to acknowledge this, but it’s the truth.

A marriage, even a bad one, does not cause someone to cheat. Lack of boundaries and poor coping skills does. Both parties are in the same (bad) marriage, only one deals with it by cheating (and then trying to blame the marriage). Cheating "in response to a bad marriage and underlying problems" is STILL the cheater's fault - they have other choices, including leaving the marriage. Cheaters need to fix their own character defects.

And Esther Perel is a cheater's apologist.

Anonymous wrote:
This. I have friends married to spouses who have never cheating but they have broken some trust in the marriage in many other ways ( verbally abusive, financially irresponsible, gambling etc).

In the last few months, I myself have gambled and lost 10k in the stock market without my DH's consent( we check in with each other for any expense above 3k and I did not check in because I was so sure that I will put it back into my checking in no time). I broke his trust there.

Should these lead straight to divorce as well?

As a guy, I'd forgive losing $10k on the stock market but could never forgive you taking some other guy's d*ck, just saying.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:If your beloved puppy drags diarrhea all across the rug, you clean it up and still love him. It's like that. Sometimes the love is greater than the infraction.

You just compared cheating to diarrhea. And your partner to a dog.

The point of marriage is that you commit to honesty, fidelity, monogamy. That’s the whole point. If you can’t hack it then don’t stay married. And honestly, if someone can’t hack it then what they’ve messed up is not a contingent part of the relationship but the core of it. Very hard to come back and build a true love after that.

Me thinks you don't understand analogies.

Making messes in the house is natural and to be expected for a pet.
Sleeping with another person and lying about it is a choice and a massive betrayal for a spouse.

Stop being dense.

Duh, cheating is betrayal.

Anyway, because you clearly are unable to synthesize an analogy, the point is when you really love someone, you can forgive them and really move on. Or, if you can't, you can't. Complaining won't get anybody anywhere.

The whole “when you really love someone, you can forgive them and really move on” shifts the blame of the infidelity from the perpetrator to the victim. The breaking of the relationship becomes the fault of the victim for being unable to forgive instead of the fault of the perpetrator for breaking a promise of monogamy.

Infidelity, particularly repeated infidelity is a serious form of emotional abuse. It involves lying and manipulation. It is a betrayal that breaks the trust that is the foundation of any intimate relationship. It often creates a kind of long term PTSD.

I really loved my DH before I found out about his infidelity. I really loved him afterwards. But, I recognized that his behavior was unsafe and unhealthy for me. I also realized that I deserved better than to be tied for life to someone who lied and manipulated me like that.

Love is not some uncontrollable force. I chose to fall out of love with him. I ended my relationship with him. I stopped seeing him as much and stopped investing my time, energy and thoughts about him.

TBH, I felt a huge sense of relief the day I kicked him out of the house, and that sense of peace and healthiness only grew the more distance I put between us.

I would no more use live to justify staying with a cheater than I would use love to stay with someone who hit me. I have been in both situations. They are the same except the hitter leaves a mark that society can see. The cheater leaves a mark as well - you just can’t see it.

This is wild. Your reaction seems so extreme to me. There is so much more to marriage than just sex.

It's also lying. The person lied. There isn't really a lot more to marriage than being honest to each other and having sex. Think about when you were dating. Why were you dating this person rather than just being friends? In college for instance I had many friends of the opposite sex and one person whom I had a romantic relationship with. You can be friends with your ex spouse. Even live with them and care for them in old age just like with any friend. But it isn't a marriage with betrayal. Once I realized that marriages are built on some basic principles and this is why so many marriages fail because of infidelity or physical violence or stealing money or major lying and not other reasons I realized what was actually important to staying married.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your beloved puppy drags diarrhea all across the rug, you clean it up and still love him. It's like that. Sometimes the love is greater than the infraction.

You just compared cheating to diarrhea. And your partner to a dog.

The point of marriage is that you commit to honesty, fidelity, monogamy. That’s the whole point. If you can’t hack it then don’t stay married. And honestly, if someone can’t hack it then what they’ve messed up is not a contingent part of the relationship but the core of it. Very hard to come back and build a true love after that.

Me thinks you don't understand analogies.

Making messes in the house is natural and to be expected for a pet.
Sleeping with another person and lying about it is a choice and a massive betrayal for a spouse.

Stop being dense.

Duh, cheating is betrayal.

Anyway, because you clearly are unable to synthesize an analogy, the point is when you really love someone, you can forgive them and really move on. Or, if you can't, you can't. Complaining won't get anybody anywhere.

I’m a different poster and I agree it was a dumb analogy. There’s only one person in this world who can fairly compare crapping in the house with cheating, and that’s Johnny Depp.

A better one would be if your kid murdered someone. Does your love trump the infraction? For some yes, others no.

Stop with the analogies. A child who commits murder isn’t committing an offense against the parent. It isn’t about live trumping the infraction.

Marriage is an intimate relationship which requires trust between two partners. When one person has broken that trust in such a serious way, the other person is not obligated to continue the relationship just because of live. Love does not require self-subjugation to abuse.

I assume this means any and all trust, right? Or does only sex count in your mind? There are plenty of ways to let down your spouse and lose trust. Perhaps your spouse experiences job loss and you no longer trust them to contribute to finances. Maybe your spouse isn’t a good parent. Maybe your spouse doesn’t handle the in-laws well. I could go on…. Just seems strange to only focus on sex and fidelity as requiring trust.

This. I have friends married to spouses who have never cheating but they have broken some trust in the marriage in many other ways ( verbally abusive, financially irresponsible, gambling etc).

In the last few months, I myself have gambled and lost 10k in the stock market without my DH's consent( we check in with each other for any expense above 3k and I did not check in because I was so sure that I will put it back into my checking in no time). I broke his trust there.

Should these lead straight to divorce as well?

Are you remorseful and will you stop doing this and make amends? Work extra so he doesn't have to? Would he have been ok with this if you had asked? Did you purposefully lie about this money and say you put it in a college savings plan when asked or did you just forget and not expect the drop? All of this would make me change my mind about this infraction.

All these questions you would ask confirm that you are clearly not in the " must divorce if trust is broken" camp.

If you were in the "divorce if trust is broken" camp, the only question would be : Did you just forget to tell him? Anything beyond that and trust was broken.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your beloved puppy drags diarrhea all across the rug, you clean it up and still love him. It's like that. Sometimes the love is greater than the infraction.

You just compared cheating to diarrhea. And your partner to a dog.

The point of marriage is that you commit to honesty, fidelity, monogamy. That’s the whole point. If you can’t hack it then don’t stay married. And honestly, if someone can’t hack it then what they’ve messed up is not a contingent part of the relationship but the core of it. Very hard to come back and build a true love after that.

Me thinks you don't understand analogies.

Making messes in the house is natural and to be expected for a pet.
Sleeping with another person and lying about it is a choice and a massive betrayal for a spouse.

Stop being dense.

Duh, cheating is betrayal.

Anyway, because you clearly are unable to synthesize an analogy, the point is when you really love someone, you can forgive them and really move on. Or, if you can't, you can't. Complaining won't get anybody anywhere.

I’m a different poster and I agree it was a dumb analogy. There’s only one person in this world who can fairly compare crapping in the house with cheating, and that’s Johnny Depp.

A better one would be if your kid murdered someone. Does your love trump the infraction? For some yes, others no.

Stop with the analogies. A child who commits murder isn’t committing an offense against the parent. It isn’t about live trumping the infraction.

Marriage is an intimate relationship which requires trust between two partners. When one person has broken that trust in such a serious way, the other person is not obligated to continue the relationship just because of live. Love does not require self-subjugation to abuse.

I assume this means any and all trust, right? Or does only sex count in your mind? There are plenty of ways to let down your spouse and lose trust. Perhaps your spouse experiences job loss and you no longer trust them to contribute to finances. Maybe your spouse isn’t a good parent. Maybe your spouse doesn’t handle the in-laws well. I could go on…. Just seems strange to only focus on sex and fidelity as requiring trust.

This. I have friends married to spouses who have never cheating but they have broken some trust in the marriage in many other ways ( verbally abusive, financially irresponsible, gambling etc).

In the last few months, I myself have gambled and lost 10k in the stock market without my DH's consent( we check in with each other for any expense above 3k and I did not check in because I was so sure that I will put it back into my checking in no time). I broke his trust there.

Should these lead straight to divorce as well?

Are you remorseful and will you stop doing this and make amends? Work extra so he doesn't have to? Would he have been ok with this if you had asked? Did you purposefully lie about this money and say you put it in a college savings plan when asked or did you just forget and not expect the drop? All of this would make me change my mind about this infraction.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your beloved puppy drags diarrhea all across the rug, you clean it up and still love him. It's like that. Sometimes the love is greater than the infraction.

You just compared cheating to diarrhea. And your partner to a dog.

The point of marriage is that you commit to honesty, fidelity, monogamy. That’s the whole point. If you can’t hack it then don’t stay married. And honestly, if someone can’t hack it then what they’ve messed up is not a contingent part of the relationship but the core of it. Very hard to come back and build a true love after that.

Me thinks you don't understand analogies.

Making messes in the house is natural and to be expected for a pet.
Sleeping with another person and lying about it is a choice and a massive betrayal for a spouse.

Stop being dense.

Duh, cheating is betrayal.

Anyway, because you clearly are unable to synthesize an analogy, the point is when you really love someone, you can forgive them and really move on. Or, if you can't, you can't. Complaining won't get anybody anywhere.

I’m a different poster and I agree it was a dumb analogy. There’s only one person in this world who can fairly compare crapping in the house with cheating, and that’s Johnny Depp.

A better one would be if your kid murdered someone. Does your love trump the infraction? For some yes, others no.

Stop with the analogies. A child who commits murder isn’t committing an offense against the parent. It isn’t about live trumping the infraction.

Marriage is an intimate relationship which requires trust between two partners. When one person has broken that trust in such a serious way, the other person is not obligated to continue the relationship just because of live. Love does not require self-subjugation to abuse.

I assume this means any and all trust, right? Or does only sex count in your mind? There are plenty of ways to let down your spouse and lose trust. Perhaps your spouse experiences job loss and you no longer trust them to contribute to finances. Maybe your spouse isn’t a good parent. Maybe your spouse doesn’t handle the in-laws well. I could go on…. Just seems strange to only focus on sex and fidelity as requiring trust.

This. I have friends married to spouses who have never cheating but they have broken some trust in the marriage in many other ways ( verbally abusive, financially irresponsible, gambling etc).

In the last few months, I myself have gambled and lost 10k in the stock market without my DH's consent( we check in with each other for any expense above 3k and I did not check in because I was so sure that I will put it back into my checking in no time). I broke his trust there.

Should these lead straight to divorce as well?

I have friends unhappy in absolutely miserable marriages and/or they only complain and don't even like their husbands much anymore and there is no cheating (from them or that they know about from him). They fantasize about divorce at empty nest.

And, I have friends who had what appeared to be a lot of love and happy marriages that got rocked by an affair in midlife. It was a hard road for the ones that stayed together, but a lot of listening and a lot of therapy and work and they are thriving. They appear to be happier than the 'status quo' marriages and definitely the ones that were miserable. I think if there was a lot of love and goodness there and it's ripped apart---but then a lot of therapy is done which fixes whatever ways of communicating or a personal trauma in the cheater or betrayed (a lot of this is circumstantial midlife stuff--terminal illness or a parent, death of a close friend, unaddressed trauma/bad parental role models, etc., etc. which isn't dealt with in a healthy way and comes to a head in their 40s/50s) these people that had a boatload of chemistry and were compatible can come out stronger.

Of course, there was one where the spouse was a narcissistic jerk that was never going to change and didn't care about the fallout or his family/my friend.

Life is funny. You never know what is in store 10, 15, 20, etc., years down the road. It also changes some of your 'stark' views of what you would do since when you made those proclamations you weren't in the same stage/age/circumstances or had the wisdom and life experience.

This makes sense. I read a fact that marriages in which affairs that are never discovered or confessed are 50% more likely to end in divorce than ones in which they were confessed by the guilty party. I can see the ones where people were having them in secret and fooling their spouses were just biding time until kids were older and then 'hey this isn't working for me', whereas the ones that had them and confessed really wanted to change and work on the marriage and having a monumental 'secret' cannot allow for intimacy. An undisclosed affair is like cancer in a marriage. Left untreated it will slowly kill the relationship, chipping away day-by-day at the souls of both betrayed and betrayer (even if the betrayed doesn’t know). In addition, you will find that having this lie between you makes you uncomfortable when the topic of affairs come up, and it does come up, because it’s a sadly common sickness of our society. TV shows, music, books, and advertisements are wrought with affair messages.

One of the biggest reasons why disclosure of infidelity is essential is because an unconfessed affair results in a lack of staying power with regards to the commitment of the unfaithful person to remain faithful. They have avoided negative consequences from their bad behavior, and there remains a lack of accountability. The root causes for the unfaithful behavior remain unaddressed. There is no real discovery about why they acted unfaithfully in the first place.

Undisclosed affairs rob the couple of true healing and of the better relationship on the other side – which is only possible when the truth is out on the table. Undisclosed affairs serve only to promote infidelity in our culture. In the end, the “code of silence” leads to greater pain, a greater number of broken families, and it promotes generational patterns of infidelity. Where affairs remain undisclosed, ironically, the children from those families are more likely to repeat the patterns of their parents. Truth, while often painful at first, leads to freedom.

There is a saying “once a cheater always a cheater.” This probability of repeat affairs is much higher when they remain undisclosed. Confession is hard initially, but it is also the path to freedom. Of course, getting therapy and fixing things instead of having an affair is the best route--but most people aren't that self aware until everything explodes in their face and they see they are at risk of losing everything they truly cared about.