Anonymous wrote:I just realized. Does the school system realize that if the children outside of the Magnet program outperform the Magnet kids by a significant factor, how that will be perceived by college admission boards? That would be exceptionally embarrassing, especially to the kids within the program.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The programs used to look for kids who were true outliers. Now we seem to think that the top 25% are outliers and need special programs. If we want to have a program for the top 25% in can be in every school. No need for any lottery based magnet. It is compact math + a high reading group + enrichment.

Yep, these programs as we knew them are no more...

I know right? We cannot game the system anymore.
Oh well, time to move to VA

May be the games just started at MCPS lowering the standards for all

Or maybe the county is tired of the enormous investment of time, money, and resources dedicated to programs that are demanded by and largely for wealthy whites people. Maybe they are interested in simplifying the process to A) root out bias in selection for these programs and B) expand by a tiny bit the group from which students are pulled into the magnet.

You want your kid to be in an “elite” environment where only the top 1% get in - apply to Sidwell or Maret. Stop using the public schools as a means to suck resources out for a tiny percentage of the population who already tend to be privileged children. As a tax payer I’m happy to see the magnet lottery and glad to see some equity brought to the equation of these programs.

Anonymous wrote:I just realized. Does the school system realize that if the children outside of the Magnet program outperform the Magnet kids by a significant factor, how that will be perceived by college admission boards? That would be exceptionally embarrassing, especially to the kids within the program.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The programs used to look for kids who were true outliers. Now we seem to think that the top 25% are outliers and need special programs. If we want to have a program for the top 25% in can be in every school. No need for any lottery based magnet. It is compact math + a high reading group + enrichment.

Yep, these programs as we knew them are no more...

I know right? We cannot game the system anymore.
Oh well, time to move to VA

May be the games just started at MCPS lowering the standards for all

Or maybe the county is tired of the enormous investment of time, money, and resources dedicated to programs that are demanded by and largely for wealthy whites people. Maybe they are interested in simplifying the process to A) root out bias in selection for these programs and B) expand by a tiny bit the group from which students are pulled into the magnet.

You want your kid to be in an “elite” environment where only the top 1% get in - apply to Sidwell or Maret. Stop using the public schools as a means to suck resources out for a tiny percentage of the population who already tend to be privileged children. As a tax payer I’m happy to see the magnet lottery and glad to see some equity brought to the equation of these programs.

You seriously think that private school is the only option? Nope. Guess again. If my family ever gets rezoned, I'll move to the school I want my kids to attend. Why? Because that's how I ended up where I'm currently living - choosing the house based upon the school (which is why I suspect the board may be taking profits on their decisions, but that's a different thread). If mcps can't fix themselves, I'll pay out-of-pocket for kids individual tutors, no matter how much it drains their college fund or my retirement. Why? Because I know the more mcps screws up, the more competitive my child will be in future college admissions.

Personally, my hope is that parents vote out the current board and get in a board in that wants to make the school program serve public needs as well as be globally competitive. I would rather have the school help other families succeed and provide individualized supports. But if scorched earth is the only way mcps rolls and other parents aren't smart enough to see that and vote them out, then so be it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The programs used to look for kids who were true outliers. Now we seem to think that the top 25% are outliers and need special programs. If we want to have a program for the top 25% in can be in every school. No need for any lottery based magnet. It is compact math + a high reading group + enrichment.

Yep, these programs as we knew them are no more...

I know right? We cannot game the system anymore.
Oh well, time to move to VA

May be the games just started at MCPS lowering the standards for all

Or maybe the county is tired of the enormous investment of time, money, and resources dedicated to programs that are demanded by and largely for wealthy whites people. Maybe they are interested in simplifying the process to A) root out bias in selection for these programs and B) expand by a tiny bit the group from which students are pulled into the magnet.

You want your kid to be in an “elite” environment where only the top 1% get in - apply to Sidwell or Maret. Stop using the public schools as a means to suck resources out for a tiny percentage of the population who already tend to be privileged children. As a tax payer I’m happy to see the magnet lottery and glad to see some equity brought to the equation of these programs.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Define qualified...if you want to have a program for the top students, there is always a group at the top.

This is the fundamental misunderstanding of the CES program. It is not supposed to be for the "top students" in the school system. It was designed to meet the academic needs of students whose needs couldn't be met in their home elementary school. This really doesn't mean the top academic performers, it means students who learn differently, at a faster pace than their peers, and who thrive on independence and complex thinking. As more and more students over the years demonstrated they would benefit from the enriched curriculum, they began offering that curriculum at home schools, rather than shipping an entire class of 4th graders to a different school.

If parents stopped treating the CES as a coveted prize to be won by a select few students, and instead focused on advocating for better enriched curriculum (and GT trained teachers) at their school, everyone would be better off.

All lecture aside, Did you stop to think about how does lottery help to meet the needs of kids who are not selected into the program by lottery? if you argue that their needs can be met locally at homeschool, then why can't MCPS meet the needs of other kids at their home school? Why do you even need a CES program?

These posts are, in my opinion, the very heart of the matter. The magnets are, in their best version, a method to to meet the needs of kids who cannot get that enrichment at their home school. Cohort matters. If your child is at a school with plenty of similarly leveled kids, AND MCPS offers enrichment for those kids, they do not need the magnet. Hence the in-school CES programs and home school enrichment classes/programs that MCPS has been starting to offer. If a homeschool is too small for a significant cohort or child is such an outlier, the magnet is a resource to help with that rarer situation. The lottery COMPLETELY undermines this because it just looks for ability but does not take into account circumstances or cohort. MCPS says this saves them from having to parse through kids and “split hairs” in their decision process, but THAT IS THEIR JOB and they are really just choosing a pretty lazy method of names in a hat.

The problems to fix:
More quality enrichment available at home schools
More regional CES spots, because the student population has grown enough to need it, even with home school enrichment increases
The office of accelerated and enriched learning needs to get back to the hard work of picking out the kids who really do need the regional magnets
Central Office needs to get back to the hard work of selecting the outlier kids who really do need

+1 Totally agree.

The post before this tries to claim it's "too early to draw any conclusions" and use the covid "kids all over are struggling" blame-game. This sounds like the central office poppycock dished out to parents when they screw up and want parents to shut up and go away.

"Even if it turns out that this year’s class underperforms previous years’, it will be impossible to know whether that’s due to lottery selection or the lack of in person schooling."

This is exactly the point. The central office intentionally selected kids that couldn't hack it over those who could. It's an admission by MCPS that they're complete idiots.

If you're in charge, and the only ones making selections - you are the only one that holds the bag of responsibility for results. If you can't deliver results, you're not in the right job.

From one side of your mouth I hear you saying that these kids "can't hack it" and then when these kids show up and perform well I hear the other side of your mouth say "well, the teachers must be dumbing down the coursework"

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The programs used to look for kids who were true outliers. Now we seem to think that the top 25% are outliers and need special programs. If we want to have a program for the top 25% in can be in every school. No need for any lottery based magnet. It is compact math + a high reading group + enrichment.

Yep, these programs as we knew them are no more...

I know right? We cannot game the system anymore.
Oh well, time to move to VA

May be the games just started at MCPS lowering the standards for all

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Define qualified...if you want to have a program for the top students, there is always a group at the top.

This is the fundamental misunderstanding of the CES program. It is not supposed to be for the "top students" in the school system. It was designed to meet the academic needs of students whose needs couldn't be met in their home elementary school. This really doesn't mean the top academic performers, it means students who learn differently, at a faster pace than their peers, and who thrive on independence and complex thinking. As more and more students over the years demonstrated they would benefit from the enriched curriculum, they began offering that curriculum at home schools, rather than shipping an entire class of 4th graders to a different school.

If parents stopped treating the CES as a coveted prize to be won by a select few students, and instead focused on advocating for better enriched curriculum (and GT trained teachers) at their school, everyone would be better off.

All lecture aside, Did you stop to think about how does lottery help to meet the needs of kids who are not selected into the program by lottery? if you argue that their needs can be met locally at homeschool, then why can't MCPS meet the needs of other kids at their home school? Why do you even need a CES program?

These posts are, in my opinion, the very heart of the matter. The magnets are, in their best version, a method to to meet the needs of kids who cannot get that enrichment at their home school. Cohort matters. If your child is at a school with plenty of similarly leveled kids, AND MCPS offers enrichment for those kids, they do not need the magnet. Hence the in-school CES programs and home school enrichment classes/programs that MCPS has been starting to offer. If a homeschool is too small for a significant cohort or child is such an outlier, the magnet is a resource to help with that rarer situation. The lottery COMPLETELY undermines this because it just looks for ability but does not take into account circumstances or cohort. MCPS says this saves them from having to parse through kids and “split hairs” in their decision process, but THAT IS THEIR JOB and they are really just choosing a pretty lazy method of names in a hat.

The problems to fix:
More quality enrichment available at home schools
More regional CES spots, because the student population has grown enough to need it, even with home school enrichment increases
The office of accelerated and enriched learning needs to get back to the hard work of picking out the kids who really do need the regional magnets
Central Office needs to get back to the hard work of selecting the outlier kids who really do need

+1 Totally agree.

The post before this tries to claim it's "too early to draw any conclusions" and use the covid "kids all over are struggling" blame-game. This sounds like the central office poppycock dished out to parents when they screw up and want parents to shut up and go away.

"Even if it turns out that this year’s class underperforms previous years’, it will be impossible to know whether that’s due to lottery selection or the lack of in person schooling."

This is exactly the point. The central office intentionally selected kids that couldn't hack it over those who could. It's an admission by MCPS that they're complete idiots.

If you're in charge, and the only ones making selections - you are the only one that holds the bag of responsibility for results. If you can't deliver results, you're not in the right job.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Define qualified...if you want to have a program for the top students, there is always a group at the top.

This is the fundamental misunderstanding of the CES program. It is not supposed to be for the "top students" in the school system. It was designed to meet the academic needs of students whose needs couldn't be met in their home elementary school. This really doesn't mean the top academic performers, it means students who learn differently, at a faster pace than their peers, and who thrive on independence and complex thinking. As more and more students over the years demonstrated they would benefit from the enriched curriculum, they began offering that curriculum at home schools, rather than shipping an entire class of 4th graders to a different school.

If parents stopped treating the CES as a coveted prize to be won by a select few students, and instead focused on advocating for better enriched curriculum (and GT trained teachers) at their school, everyone would be better off.

All lecture aside, Did you stop to think about how does lottery help to meet the needs of kids who are not selected into the program by lottery? if you argue that their needs can be met locally at homeschool, then why can't MCPS meet the needs of other kids at their home school? Why do you even need a CES program?

These posts are, in my opinion, the very heart of the matter. The magnets are, in their best version, a method to to meet the needs of kids who cannot get that enrichment at their home school. Cohort matters. If your child is at a school with plenty of similarly leveled kids, AND MCPS offers enrichment for those kids, they do not need the magnet. Hence the in-school CES programs and home school enrichment classes/programs that MCPS has been starting to offer. If a homeschool is too small for a significant cohort or child is such an outlier, the magnet is a resource to help with that rarer situation. The lottery COMPLETELY undermines this because it just looks for ability but does not take into account circumstances or cohort. MCPS says this saves them from having to parse through kids and “split hairs” in their decision process, but THAT IS THEIR JOB and they are really just choosing a pretty lazy method of names in a hat.

The problems to fix:
More quality enrichment available at home schools
More regional CES spots, because the student population has grown enough to need it, even with home school enrichment increases
The office of accelerated and enriched learning needs to get back to the hard work of picking out the kids who really do need the regional magnets
Central Office needs to get back to the hard work of selecting the outlier kids who really do need

I agree with you. However, how do you know if everyone in the cohort at homeschool is at the same level or a close enough range? This is not transparent at all and you have to somehow trust MCPS to do this right. Current MCPS BOE does not seem to have trust of the people. I was going through what is in news since 2016 and the pattern that emerges from the comments of BOE members is that they are determined to force equity over excellence. As someone suggested, I will support any number programs that MCPS starts which will meet the needs of every kid in the school system regardless of race and socio-economic situation. We must address all issues. However a non-transparent lottery system with randomization that effect some segment of equally qualified students is not going to help MCPS meet the needs of every kid in the system. When you sum it all up. It appeas to be a total failure of leadership at MCPS.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Define qualified...if you want to have a program for the top students, there is always a group at the top.

This is the fundamental misunderstanding of the CES program. It is not supposed to be for the "top students" in the school system. It was designed to meet the academic needs of students whose needs couldn't be met in their home elementary school. This really doesn't mean the top academic performers, it means students who learn differently, at a faster pace than their peers, and who thrive on independence and complex thinking. As more and more students over the years demonstrated they would benefit from the enriched curriculum, they began offering that curriculum at home schools, rather than shipping an entire class of 4th graders to a different school.

If parents stopped treating the CES as a coveted prize to be won by a select few students, and instead focused on advocating for better enriched curriculum (and GT trained teachers) at their school, everyone would be better off.

All lecture aside, Did you stop to think about how does lottery help to meet the needs of kids who are not selected into the program by lottery? if you argue that their needs can be met locally at homeschool, then why can't MCPS meet the needs of other kids at their home school? Why do you even need a CES program?

These posts are, in my opinion, the very heart of the matter. The magnets are, in their best version, a method to to meet the needs of kids who cannot get that enrichment at their home school. Cohort matters. If your child is at a school with plenty of similarly leveled kids, AND MCPS offers enrichment for those kids, they do not need the magnet. Hence the in-school CES programs and home school enrichment classes/programs that MCPS has been starting to offer. If a homeschool is too small for a significant cohort or child is such an outlier, the magnet is a resource to help with that rarer situation. The lottery COMPLETELY undermines this because it just looks for ability but does not take into account circumstances or cohort. MCPS says this saves them from having to parse through kids and “split hairs” in their decision process, but THAT IS THEIR JOB and they are really just choosing a pretty lazy method of names in a hat.

The problems to fix:
More quality enrichment available at home schools
More regional CES spots, because the student population has grown enough to need it, even with home school enrichment increases
The office of accelerated and enriched learning needs to get back to the hard work of picking out the kids who really do need the regional magnets
Central Office needs to get back to the hard work of selecting the outlier kids who really do need

+1 Totally agree.

The post before this tries to claim it's "too early to draw any conclusions" and use the covid "kids all over are struggling" blame-game. This sounds like the central office poppycock dished out to parents when they screw up and want parents to shut up and go away.

"Even if it turns out that this year’s class underperforms previous years’, it will be impossible to know whether that’s due to lottery selection or the lack of in person schooling."

This is exactly the point. The central office intentionally selected kids that couldn't hack it over those who could. It's an admission by MCPS that they're complete idiots.

If you're in charge, and the only ones making selections - you are the only one that holds the bag of responsibility for results. If you can't deliver results, you're not in the right job.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Define qualified...if you want to have a program for the top students, there is always a group at the top.

This is the fundamental misunderstanding of the CES program. It is not supposed to be for the "top students" in the school system. It was designed to meet the academic needs of students whose needs couldn't be met in their home elementary school. This really doesn't mean the top academic performers, it means students who learn differently, at a faster pace than their peers, and who thrive on independence and complex thinking. As more and more students over the years demonstrated they would benefit from the enriched curriculum, they began offering that curriculum at home schools, rather than shipping an entire class of 4th graders to a different school.

If parents stopped treating the CES as a coveted prize to be won by a select few students, and instead focused on advocating for better enriched curriculum (and GT trained teachers) at their school, everyone would be better off.

All lecture aside, Did you stop to think about how does lottery help to meet the needs of kids who are not selected into the program by lottery? if you argue that their needs can be met locally at homeschool, then why can't MCPS meet the needs of other kids at their home school? Why do you even need a CES program?

These posts are, in my opinion, the very heart of the matter. The magnets are, in their best version, a method to to meet the needs of kids who cannot get that enrichment at their home school. Cohort matters. If your child is at a school with plenty of similarly leveled kids, AND MCPS offers enrichment for those kids, they do not need the magnet. Hence the in-school CES programs and home school enrichment classes/programs that MCPS has been starting to offer. If a homeschool is too small for a significant cohort or child is such an outlier, the magnet is a resource to help with that rarer situation. The lottery COMPLETELY undermines this because it just looks for ability but does not take into account circumstances or cohort. MCPS says this saves them from having to parse through kids and “split hairs” in their decision process, but THAT IS THEIR JOB and they are really just choosing a pretty lazy method of names in a hat.

The problems to fix:
More quality enrichment available at home schools
More regional CES spots, because the student population has grown enough to need it, even with home school enrichment increases
The office of accelerated and enriched learning needs to get back to the hard work of picking out the kids who really do need the regional magnets
Central Office needs to get back to the hard work of selecting the outlier kids who really do need

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DCUM is so nice right now without all the trolls.

We have at least 4 right now. Maybe I'm missing one.

1) lottery troll
2) restorative justice troll
3) SRO troll
4) anti-vax anti-mask troll

Items 2, 3, 4 are just crazy-town. Not really thrilled about the lottery but it's also not the end of the world.

For the children who could have been world-class competitors, it certainly didn't do them any favors. Montgomery County is not in a bubble. Either the children are ready for global competition, or they are not. If you think a lottery will make any difference, you're wrong. If anything it will increase the equity difference.

Before the lottery, kids knew that only the absolute best were selected. If a kid worked hard or was a savant, they won the golden ticket. It meant something.

Now the Magnet program is nothing but a Las Vegas casino, and just as tacky. The Magnet program now teaches to the class anchors. This only breeds resentment amongst peers and demoralizes the students dragging everyone else behind. In the mean time, the local CES now have the majority of high-flyers. The parents who can are just paying for tutors, special program classes, and other things that leapfrog their children ahead of the others.

And the assessment is off. You forgot a few trolls as well. "The only reason why kids get 99+ on CogAT and get into the Magnet program is because the parents send the kid to prep courses troll", or "the crazy boundary maps look fine troll", or the MCPS "Everything is Awesome" troll?

You can ignore these threads if they bother you that much. Parents want to talk about this. If you want to make a point - make it - or move on.

This year's 4th and 6th graders are the only magnet students to have gone through the lottery process, and they're in their first semester of in-person school since the middle of 2nd / 4th grade. So maybe, just maybe, you're overreacting a bit? Or making some unreasonable assumptions? Just a thought.

May be you are assuming as well. Just a thought. This is a topic that many parents wants to discuss, share ideas and prepare kids for a bright future. If you do not have anything to contribute, please ignore. Just saying.

In what way is it a useful contribution to say that the current magnet process is “just as tacky” as a “Las Vegas casino?” Is that the kind of high level contribution you’d prefer?

I do think it’s relevant that we are less than halfway through the first year of the first class selected by lottery, and that this is an atypical year for everyone. It is way too early to draw any conclusions about the success or failure of selection by lottery. Plus, due to distance learning, kids all over are struggling this year. Even if it turns out that this year’s class underperforms previous years’, it will be impossible to know whether that’s due to lottery selection or the lack of in person schooling.

We do know that, in any given year even pre-lottery, lots of qualified kids didn’t get accepted to the magnets, or chose not to attend. There is at least some historical data for 99% kids in non-magnet programs. So perhaps the more interesting question is how many of the 85% kids thrive in the magnets and how many really struggle. But, again, far too early to say.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The programs used to look for kids who were true outliers. Now we seem to think that the top 25% are outliers and need special programs. If we want to have a program for the top 25% in can be in every school. No need for any lottery based magnet. It is compact math + a high reading group + enrichment.

Yep, these programs as we knew them are no more...

I know right? We cannot game the system anymore.
Oh well, time to move to VA