Anonymous wrote:This thread is disgusting. If you knew this family you wouldn’t be making all these assumptions. This is a local family, many of us know them and their little girl. They lost their only child and you are here blaming them so you can feel Better with yourself. I hope that the family never see this thread. Have some empathy.

But also have some empathy for the driver —who police think did nothing wrong and will probably be haunted the rest of his life. We had a family friend who committed suicide a year after hitting a toddler who farted into the street. He was cleared legally, but couldn’t forget the sights and sounds.

Anonymous wrote:This thread is disgusting. If you knew this family you wouldn’t be making all these assumptions. This is a local family, many of us know them and their little girl. They lost their only child and you are here blaming them so you can feel Better with yourself. I hope that the family never see this thread. Have some empathy.

Seriously. So none of you have allowed your child to bike 2 feet ahead of you at ANY TIME in childhood?

How does that even work? You jog ahead and the kid bikes behind you? As they get older you start sprinting faster and faster to keep ahead up with them? Because if you're walking and the kid is 2 feet ahead this could have easily happened to you as well.

I would bet one million dollars every single one of us has allowed our child to bike ahead hundreds and hundreds of times. It is by shear luck that our kids have not been hit.

This was a freak accident. Bad stuff happens. Freak accidents happen. Could have happened to any of us.

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Anonymous wrote:A five year old on a scooter or bike should be on the sidewalk or right next to a parent. Unless the van was driving on the sidewalk, I don't know why you would assume it was the driver's fault.

Of course it is the driver's fault. Don't be an idiot.

It's a four-way crosswalk with no lights and 7PM at night. I'm guessing the driver didn't see the tiny 5-year-old and the parent wasn't close enough to wave the car off.

Not anyone's fault.

This thinking is so false. When moving through a four way crosswalk intersection you need to be INCREDIBLY careful. The onus is on YOU to check that the crosswalks are clear. Yes, this was an accident. But the fault lies with the driver if the victim was in the crosswalk. If the victim was jay-walking, it is the pedestrian's fault. This is the entire reason we HAVE crosswalks. To protect pedestrians.

That is not true.

A walker, even when using a crosswalk, must stop before entering the crosswalk to ensure cars can see them. You can't just enter a crosswalk without caution or stopping 1st.

If you are jogging and immediately go into a crosswalk without stopping 1st, you are in the wrong.
If you are walking and turn to enter a crosswalk without stopping 1st, you are in the wrong.

Drivers can not read your mind. Drivers can't stop when somebody darts into a crosswalk.

I have never heard of such a rule (NP). The rule I learned is that if a pedestrian is in a cross-walk (even one foot), a car is not permitted to “enter” the crosswalk (even in a location that would not hit the pedestrian). A rule that is broken all the time - and from the ridiculous apologists for the driver on this thread, a dangerous practice that plenty of PPs want to perpetuate… Seriously the 5 yr old in a crosswalk is to blame?? I bet dollar to donuts the driver was just distracted, rushed and not paying attention…

When I lived in LA many years ago the law was you stop for a pedestrian with a foot in the road anywhere, it sure if this is still the case, to my knowledge not sure that is the case here, still as a walker anywhere before I venture out into the road I make sure the driver sees me, has time to stop etc... why because I weigh 145 not over a ton. I like my body and not about to risk life long disability or worse just be use the driver is supposed to do the right thing. I tell my kids to do the same thing the driver doesn’t have to be a bad person to hit you and kill you they might just be stupid, either way the onus is on you to keep yourself safe. The law isn’t what is important, right or wrong after the fact doesn’t keep you safe.

This thread is disgusting. If you knew this family you wouldn’t be making all these assumptions. This is a local family, many of us know them and their little girl. They lost their only child and you are here blaming them so you can feel Better with yourself. I hope that the family never see this thread. Have some empathy.

Sad story.

This is why I strongly oppose encouragement of walkers, particularly adults, to walk right out in front of moving cars in a crosswalk "because they have the right of way."

Right of way doesn't matter if you die.

So, please, do not walk into a crosswalk in front of moving traffic. Stop, look both ways, and when cars are gone or stop moving and its safe, walk across the street. Thank you. For protecting your own life.

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Anonymous wrote:I don't understand how the speed was enough to kill her if he had just stopped and was moving through the crosswalk. Just heartbreaking and terrifying - you cannot teach children that young - there is always something that can happen - we need infrastructure changes.

If she was not able to stop she may have been going pretty quickly and been thrown, not just knocked down. She could have hit her head or landed poorly on her neck. Or she could have been pulled under the wheel. So unthinkably tragic.

What kind of infrastructure changes would have prevented this horrific accident?

raised crosswalks and bump-outs/curb extensions.

https://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/ped_bike/step/docs/techSheet_RaisedCW2018.pdf

Those are traffic calming measures. I 100% agree that we need more traffic calming infrastructure in Brookland. Maryland drivers and DC drivers alike tear down my street going 15+ mph over the speed limit regularly.

How would those changes have prevented this accident? Honest question.

This is a case of a young child not being old enough and aware enough to understand the dangers around them. The parents/guardian not close enough to take action. And the unfortunate consequences.

+1

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Anonymous wrote:I bike commute with my 6 year old on her own bike and this really shook me. We follow EVERY safety rule to the letter. She wears a reflective vest, has a bike flag that is on an adult height pole. She always bikes right behind me and is not allowed to lag more than a few feet in intersections. This particular scenario couldn't have happened to us (because she never enters an intersection before me), but another distracted driver could plow through an intersection and hit us both. Sigh, I really hate commuting by car, but I'm second guessing now. My heart is with the family. I can't imagine the horror they're experiencing now.

you know that you’re not supposed to ride off the sidewalk into the intersection, right?

I’m not sure what you’re saying. That bicyclists on sidewalks should dismount and walk through every block? Do you have a cite for that?

I definitely dismount when I’m riding on the sidewalk and crossing heavily trafficked intersections. For other intersections, I slow almost to a stop and roll through at walking speed until I’m sure it’s clear. Riding off the sidewalk is very dangerous because the cars aren’t expecting to see you. This is why sidewalk biking can be more dangerous than biking on the street. I do bike on the sidewalk with my kid, but with these precautions. On my own I never bike on the sidewalk unless I have to. The ONLY time I’ve almost gotten creamed was biking on the sidewalk and shooting into the crosswalk, not seeing the right-turning car. that said, if drivers stopped and looked where they were going, and kept their speed down, this would not be as dangerous.

Yes we do that. We come to an almost complete yield stop, look both ways, then go through the intersection. Especially during rush hour, you just can’t assume drivers are following the rules of the road.

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Anonymous wrote:What nonsense. Kids die in driveways all the time when their parents run over them, all much less than 10 mph.

not nonsense.

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2016/05/31/3-graphs-that-explain-why-20-mph-should-be-the-limit-on-city-streets/

That data is for adults. Not 5 year olds. It isn’t relevant.

here you go, have fun. speed and severity of injury are related for all ages.

https://nacto.org/docs/usdg/relationship_between_speed_risk_fatal_injury_pedestrians_and_car_occupants_richards.pdf

this is why there is a growing movement for 20mph speed limit.

I fully support the 20 mph speed limit. They’ve recently dropped the limit on my residential DC street to 20 and cars are still flying by at 35 mph or faster, ignoring stop signs. Dropping the speed limit isn’t enough and I’d love some traffic calming as well, which I’ve said to DDOT and my ANC rep.

But I still don’t get what this has to do with the tragic accident yesterday evening. I don’t see that this report says that an accident when a car is traveling at a slow speed cannot be fatal. I see it saying that faster speeds are more likely to be fatal or result in serious injury. I don’t understand why you’re offering this to contradict the police report that says the driver stopped and then proceeded into the intersection. I haven’t heard of any witness accounts that counter that report.

I think this is so unthinkably awful, that people are looking for some one to blame - driver, parents, child, infrastructure. If someone did something wrong we can distance ourselves from it, it won’t happen to us because we won’t make that mistake. But sometimes there really isn’t anyone to blame. This was just a fluke. A horrible, unimaginably awful fluke where this poor child and that van were at exactly the wrong place at the wrong time and it could have happened to any one of us. Which is even more terrifying.

This. We're so desperate to find fault here because it's so awful to imagine that this could happen to our family.

“ Pedestrians and bikers need to stop worrying about their rights and worry about staying alive. Yes, a car is absolutely supposed to stop for a pedestrian in a crosswalk, but sometimes they don't. You shouldn't just start walking through a crosswalk (even though it's your right) without making sure the car sees you and is going slowly enough to stop. Would you rather be right or alive?”

This is what I tell my kids all the time. That it is THEIR job to watch out for the cars, not the cars’ job to look for them because my kids cannot control if the driver actually does that. I teach them to yield to the cars unless it is clear the driver sees them and is waving them along.

Yes, that is not the rules of the road. But I do not want my kids assuming cars will stop when they may not.

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Anonymous wrote:A five year old on a scooter or bike should be on the sidewalk or right next to a parent. Unless the van was driving on the sidewalk, I don't know why you would assume it was the driver's fault.

The child was in a crosswalk. There's no way for a driver to kill her unless they ran the stop sign. Even if the child got out ahead of her parents, an attentive driver who stopped at the sign would STILL have been able to stop.

That’s so obviously untrue. Have you really never once see a kid <5 yrs blast into the road (crosswalk) without stopping?? You know, barreling at a good clip down the ADA sidewalk ramp? Scooters are the most common method of this but I also see balance bikes and just plain running full bore.

Yes. Drivers need to to yield. Always. If you cannot reasonably see a thing to *yield to* though, it makes it pretty hard. Even at 5 mph

A 42” tall child fast approaching from your right if you’re in a tall van at dusk-darkness is almost impossible to see.

Peace to her family

I agree this is how accidents happen with biking/scooting on the sidewalk. But this does not exonerate cars that whip around corners without stopping. If the van had come to a full stop before turning, the girl would not be dead.

Why don't you read the accounts of the incident before spouting such stupid sh!t?

Because initial police reports of bike/ped accidents are notorious for being wrong and letting the driver off. And because I don’t believe that the vehicle could have accelerated that quickly if they came to a full stop; and if it did floor it through the intersection after stopping, that is equally reckless. And drivers need to look both ways before driving thru crosswalks.

Translation: Because I prefer to believe that the facts that are true are different than those reported, because they suit my preconceived notions. And because I don't have a good grasp of physics.

translation: you have no understanding of the nature of pedestrians/bikers being killed by drivers, which fit predictable patterns. the van should not have been going more than 10mph thru the crosswalk, and a fatality at that speed would be very very rare.

So you have decided, not having been there, about how this happened, not based on any evidence, but because because of "predictable patterns," rather than accept the facts as reported by people that actually were there? As I said, you prefer to believe alternative facts because they fit your preferred narrative. Basically, you are the same as an election denying MAGAite. Congratulations, I guess.

My guess is as good as that police report, yes. And it’s very probable that the van must have been going too fast through the crosswalk. 10 mph would not have killed her. Pedestrian deaths are way up in the US due to reckless driving and poor design. Not sure why I should assume otherwise here.

Agree, 2+. If you come to a full stop, and then you hit someone *in a crosswalk* which is what? - 5-8 ft away - I don’t know how you even get to 10 mph unless you are flooring it. Seems like either a freak accident or a white wash report. If the driver’s not to blame it’s just a “tragedy” if s/he is, it’s someone’s responsibility (and the City’s potential liability). Pretty clear where the bias will lie.

yep. I think we all know what happened - van took the corner at 20-30 mph and was not looking.

Nope.

Anonymous wrote:What nonsense. Kids die in driveways all the time when their parents run over them, all much less than 10 mph.

Exactly. Let’s see you survive 10 mph if your vital organs or head (yes, even in a plastic helmet) are run over by a car tire.

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Anonymous wrote:A five year old on a scooter or bike should be on the sidewalk or right next to a parent. Unless the van was driving on the sidewalk, I don't know why you would assume it was the driver's fault.

The child was in a crosswalk. There's no way for a driver to kill her unless they ran the stop sign. Even if the child got out ahead of her parents, an attentive driver who stopped at the sign would STILL have been able to stop.

That’s so obviously untrue. Have you really never once see a kid <5 yrs blast into the road (crosswalk) without stopping?? You know, barreling at a good clip down the ADA sidewalk ramp? Scooters are the most common method of this but I also see balance bikes and just plain running full bore.

Yes. Drivers need to to yield. Always. If you cannot reasonably see a thing to *yield to* though, it makes it pretty hard. Even at 5 mph

A 42” tall child fast approaching from your right if you’re in a tall van at dusk-darkness is almost impossible to see.

Peace to her family

I agree this is how accidents happen with biking/scooting on the sidewalk. But this does not exonerate cars that whip around corners without stopping. If the van had come to a full stop before turning, the girl would not be dead.

Why don't you read the accounts of the incident before spouting such stupid sh!t?

Because initial police reports of bike/ped accidents are notorious for being wrong and letting the driver off. And because I don’t believe that the vehicle could have accelerated that quickly if they came to a full stop; and if it did floor it through the intersection after stopping, that is equally reckless. And drivers need to look both ways before driving thru crosswalks.

Sometimes everyone is doing their best and terrible things still happen. I highly doubt that you come to a complete 5 second stop and look both ways at Every Single Intersection. As drivers, we are conditioned to look for adult pedestrians moving at a predictable pace, which is why cyclists/power scooters using the sidewalk can be so dangerous. The same goes for a child moving quickly/unpredictably on a bike at dusk.

drivers need to look to see if anyone is entering the crosswalk before barrelling through. It’s not hard.

Once again, no one was “barreling through.” Read the police report. It’s not hard.

Anonymous wrote:I am a very careful driver, but the one time I almost hit a child was while driving a van. It is up very high and children can actually be well below the dashboard. In my case, a child ran around the back of their parked car while the mother was getting a sibling out of the other side. I slammed on the brakes instantly. The child fell, but I hadn’t hit him. He was just startled. He was crying and I was crying. The mom was very shaken, too, but emphasized it wasn’t my fault. It was a long time before I felt comfortable restarting the van and leaving the scene.

Then maybe ordinary consumer use of vans and other vehicles that put drivers high above the street should probably be illegal.

I found the mother's Facebook page. No mention of the incident but pages of smiling photos. Those parents loved that little girl. It is heartbreaking. I can't fathom it.

Sometimes horrible, horrible stuff happens. I've been both the driver and the parent in this situation. I could have easily accelerated from a stop-sign and hit a kid. How many times have I been driving along in my neighborhood and suddenly a kid comes out on a bike, following a ball, walking across the street? Countless times. Sometimes I've completely alert, sometimes it was by the grace of God that I put the breaks on in time and didn't hit the kid.

And how many times have I trailed behind one of my kids when they rode their scooter or bike a block ahead? Hundreds and hundreds.

I absolutely, positively could have been me in this situation. What a tragic freak accident.

This problem with this thread is that (some of) the people are commenting are airing their grievances on bike safety, others are fighting for car/bike friendly policies.

Some of us are neighbors. Brookland is close knit and small. Almost all new Moms have a cohort in a new Mom group that meets at places like Sidamo (past), MSM, in the grass at TT, in the kids section at Barnes and Noble and more.

We also know the streets. We know that people FLY through the neighborhood, especially on Monroe, Newton, Franklin, 14th, Michigan and Otis. Everyone has a story of a close call. We've advocated for Safe Street, speed bumps.

We know that there's bad blind Hill by Bunker Hill Park. And across from MMBDA at Irving.

We know this might have been an "accident" and might have been a "tragedy" but that doesn't matter to this family

And we are heartbroken that if we didn't know this family, we know their faces and their child.

So again, take your armchair commentary to fairfaxunderground and let the family grieve. If you can't give grace to adults, give it to kindergartners who have been with her, some since they were born, some since they entered a new school in PK3.