Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other angle here is to raise the driving age to 21. Public transportation and new services like Lyft could replace teen driving.

Yes, although driving is not the only hazard. Teens often make poor sexual choices when intoxicated or high. They need to be taught early how to handle drugs responsibly. And since the teen brain is not super-rational to begin with, I personally think abstaining from all intoxicants until adulthood is the wisest move.

Yes, but people (including teenagers) often do things that are not the wisest move. So then what?

You get dead kids. Duh.

What can we do so that, when people inevitably do things that are not the wisest move, we don't get dead kids?

How can we prevent dead kids, besides, "Well, everyone always better only do the wisest thing."? Because we know that's not going to happen.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Teens will find and drink alcohol.

So we should facilitate that?

Different poster here. This is the point. Yes, kids will find something to drink. But there's a difference when they know it's wrong and not sanctioned by adults. They drink less. When the parents act like it's all OK or even worse, supply the stuff, there's no reason for them to moderate their drinking at all.

Do you really think that teens moderate their drinking when it's not sanctioned by adults?

of course. Many studies support that. Kids with parents who preach the no alcohol message drink less, binge drink less, and those effects last into college when there is much less supervision.

And it makes logical sense. If you facilitate drinking, they are going to drink. If you say no alcohol and actually monitor it, you won't stop it completely, but it will be significantly less.

Or you may stop it completely. Some teens have no interest in drinking.

"Everyone's doing it" is the oldest trick in the book.
Anyone not know that?

Huh? Some teens don't drink or use drugs. Some teens don't care what everyone else is doing or not doing.

I was one of those teens. I never drank any alcohol until I was 21. It didn't interest me.

There are others like me, indifferent to what "everyone else" is (allegedly) doing.

You are exactly right. Key word is "allegedly." It's a lie that everyone's doing it. They aren't.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Teens will find and drink alcohol.

So we should facilitate that?

Different poster here. This is the point. Yes, kids will find something to drink. But there's a difference when they know it's wrong and not sanctioned by adults. They drink less. When the parents act like it's all OK or even worse, supply the stuff, there's no reason for them to moderate their drinking at all.

Do you really think that teens moderate their drinking when it's not sanctioned by adults?

of course. Many studies support that. Kids with parents who preach the no alcohol message drink less, binge drink less, and those effects last into college when there is much less supervision.

And it makes logical sense. If you facilitate drinking, they are going to drink. If you say no alcohol and actually monitor it, you won't stop it completely, but it will be significantly less.

Or you may stop it completely. Some teens have no interest in drinking.

"Everyone's doing it" is the oldest trick in the book.
Anyone not know that?

Huh? Some teens don't drink or use drugs. Some teens don't care what everyone else is doing or not doing.

I was one of those teens. I never drank any alcohol until I was 21. It didn't interest me.

There are others like me, indifferent to what "everyone else" is (allegedly) doing.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other angle here is to raise the driving age to 21. Public transportation and new services like Lyft could replace teen driving.

Yes, although driving is not the only hazard. Teens often make poor sexual choices when intoxicated or high. They need to be taught early how to handle drugs responsibly. And since the teen brain is not super-rational to begin with, I personally think abstaining from all intoxicants until adulthood is the wisest move.

Yes, but people (including teenagers) often do things that are not the wisest move. So then what?

You get dead kids. Duh.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other angle here is to raise the driving age to 21. Public transportation and new services like Lyft could replace teen driving.

Yes, although driving is not the only hazard. Teens often make poor sexual choices when intoxicated or high. They need to be taught early how to handle drugs responsibly. And since the teen brain is not super-rational to begin with, I personally think abstaining from all intoxicants until adulthood is the wisest move.

Yes, but people (including teenagers) often do things that are not the wisest move. So then what?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Teens will find and drink alcohol.

So we should facilitate that?

Different poster here. This is the point. Yes, kids will find something to drink. But there's a difference when they know it's wrong and not sanctioned by adults. They drink less. When the parents act like it's all OK or even worse, supply the stuff, there's no reason for them to moderate their drinking at all.

Do you really think that teens moderate their drinking when it's not sanctioned by adults?

of course. Many studies support that. Kids with parents who preach the no alcohol message drink less, binge drink less, and those effects last into college when there is much less supervision.

And it makes logical sense. If you facilitate drinking, they are going to drink. If you say no alcohol and actually monitor it, you won't stop it completely, but it will be significantly less.

Or you may stop it completely. Some teens have no interest in drinking.

"Everyone's doing it" is the oldest trick in the book.
Anyone not know that?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other angle here is to raise the driving age to 21. Public transportation and new services like Lyft could replace teen driving.

Yes, although driving is not the only hazard. Teens often make poor sexual choices when intoxicated or high. They need to be taught early how to handle drugs responsibly. And since the teen brain is not super-rational to begin with, I personally think abstaining from all intoxicants until adulthood is the wisest move.

Because you sometimes get this:

http://www.mymcpnews.com/2015/09/23/juvenile-charged-as-adult-after-assaulting-officers/

Anonymous wrote:The other angle here is to raise the driving age to 21. Public transportation and new services like Lyft could replace teen driving.

Yes, although driving is not the only hazard. Teens often make poor sexual choices when intoxicated or high. They need to be taught early how to handle drugs responsibly. And since the teen brain is not super-rational to begin with, I personally think abstaining from all intoxicants until adulthood is the wisest move.

The other angle here is to raise the driving age to 21. Public transportation and new services like Lyft could replace teen driving.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Teens will find and drink alcohol.

So we should facilitate that?

Different poster here. This is the point. Yes, kids will find something to drink. But there's a difference when they know it's wrong and not sanctioned by adults. They drink less. When the parents act like it's all OK or even worse, supply the stuff, there's no reason for them to moderate their drinking at all.

Do you really think that teens moderate their drinking when it's not sanctioned by adults?

of course. Many studies support that. Kids with parents who preach the no alcohol message drink less, binge drink less, and those effects last into college when there is much less supervision.

And it makes logical sense. If you facilitate drinking, they are going to drink. If you say no alcohol and actually monitor it, you won't stop it completely, but it will be significantly less.

Or you may stop it completely. Some teens have no interest in drinking.

True. I just figured I was writing to a teen. One who can't fathom that some kids don't drink.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Teens will find and drink alcohol.

So we should facilitate that?

Different poster here. This is the point. Yes, kids will find something to drink. But there's a difference when they know it's wrong and not sanctioned by adults. They drink less. When the parents act like it's all OK or even worse, supply the stuff, there's no reason for them to moderate their drinking at all.

Do you really think that teens moderate their drinking when it's not sanctioned by adults?

Yes. And research has supported it. Easy access to alcohol and implicit or explicit condoning of use by parents or parental figures (ie coaches, etc) does lead to higher rates of consumption. Doesn't mean that kids who are sneaky aren't binge drinking, of course that happens. It just means that if they have ready access, then they are even MORE likely to continue bingeing because there is no real roadblock to stop them. I think most posters don't believe that doing nothing because it won't cure EVERYTHING is a cop out.

Let me find some links. But really you don't need them, its common sense. And no, we don't abstain and yes, my kids can have wine with xmas dinner and such but I've seen this dynamic play over and over again, particularly when say there is just 1 minor child left in the household/ family, they get away with drinking much more at family events, and obviously with friends, because its just been normalized at that point by circumstance.

14:47 above posted some links.

The research is pretty clear on this.

Anonymous wrote:

Teens will find and drink alcohol.

So we should facilitate that?

Different poster here. This is the point. Yes, kids will find something to drink. But there's a difference when they know it's wrong and not sanctioned by adults. They drink less. When the parents act like it's all OK or even worse, supply the stuff, there's no reason for them to moderate their drinking at all.

Do you really think that teens moderate their drinking when it's not sanctioned by adults?

Yes. And research has supported it. Easy access to alcohol and implicit or explicit condoning of use by parents or parental figures (ie coaches, etc) does lead to higher rates of consumption. Doesn't mean that kids who are sneaky aren't binge drinking, of course that happens. It just means that if they have ready access, then they are even MORE likely to continue bingeing because there is no real roadblock to stop them. I think most posters don't believe that doing nothing because it won't cure EVERYTHING is a cop out.

Let me find some links. But really you don't need them, its common sense. And no, we don't abstain and yes, my kids can have wine with xmas dinner and such but I've seen this dynamic play over and over again, particularly when say there is just 1 minor child left in the household/ family, they get away with drinking much more at family events, and obviously with friends, because its just been normalized at that point by circumstance.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Teens will find and drink alcohol.

So we should facilitate that?

Different poster here. This is the point. Yes, kids will find something to drink. But there's a difference when they know it's wrong and not sanctioned by adults. They drink less. When the parents act like it's all OK or even worse, supply the stuff, there's no reason for them to moderate their drinking at all.

Do you really think that teens moderate their drinking when it's not sanctioned by adults?

of course. Many studies support that. Kids with parents who preach the no alcohol message drink less, binge drink less, and those effects last into college when there is much less supervision.

And it makes logical sense. If you facilitate drinking, they are going to drink. If you say no alcohol and actually monitor it, you won't stop it completely, but it will be significantly less.

Or you may stop it completely. Some teens have no interest in drinking.

Exactly. I was one of those not interested kids. Never understood the big deal with some kids wanting alcohol.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Teens will find and drink alcohol.

So we should facilitate that?

Different poster here. This is the point. Yes, kids will find something to drink. But there's a difference when they know it's wrong and not sanctioned by adults. They drink less. When the parents act like it's all OK or even worse, supply the stuff, there's no reason for them to moderate their drinking at all.

Do you really think that teens moderate their drinking when it's not sanctioned by adults?

of course. Many studies support that. Kids with parents who preach the no alcohol message drink less, binge drink less, and those effects last into college when there is much less supervision.

And it makes logical sense. If you facilitate drinking, they are going to drink. If you say no alcohol and actually monitor it, you won't stop it completely, but it will be significantly less.

Or you may stop it completely. Some teens have no interest in drinking.

Anonymous wrote:

Teens will find and drink alcohol.

So we should facilitate that?

Different poster here. This is the point. Yes, kids will find something to drink. But there's a difference when they know it's wrong and not sanctioned by adults. They drink less. When the parents act like it's all OK or even worse, supply the stuff, there's no reason for them to moderate their drinking at all.

Do you really think that teens moderate their drinking when it's not sanctioned by adults?

I think teens engage in fewer risky behaviors when the opportunities to engage in them are reduced. The drinking that happened at the Saltzman house would not have happened if Kenneth Saltzman had not sanctioned it. The teens who drank, drove, and were killed or injured might have gone elsewhere to drink, or they might have shrugged and stayed at the Salzman house to watch a movie and have a pizza. We don't know.

The point is, yes, kids will get into risky stuff. But we don't have to, nor should we facilitate that. We have more power than we think, and parenting strategies can and should be used to reduce drinking among teens.

See e.g.:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20815663

and

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127222042

"The Role Of Parents

So if parents want to give a "no alcohol" message to their teens, what can they do? Alcohol researcher Caitlin Abar from Pennsylvania State University found that parents' efforts do play a role in shaping their teens' behavior. She studied how parents deal with their high school teenagers regarding alcohol use while still at home, and she then checked after the teens' first semester of college. Her study of 300 teenagers and their parents was published recently in the journal Addictive Behaviors.

"Parents who disapproved completely of underage alcohol use tended to have students who engaged in less drinking, less binge drinking, once in college," Abar says.

And conversely, a parent's permissiveness about teenage drinking is a significant risk factor for later binge drinking.

"The parents who are more accepting of teen drinking in high school were more likely to have children who engaged in risky drinking behaviors in college, compared to those children who had parents that were less accepting," Abar says. The researchers also asked the teens about their parents' drinking patterns and found that parents' own drinking behavior influenced a teen's later alcohol use.

Rules Matter

But, it was parents' rules that had the strongest effect, says Abar. Complete disapproval of teen drinking by parents was the most protective, even more than when parents allowed a limited amount of alcohol consumption.

Other studies support Abar's findings. Psychology professor Mark Wood from the University of Rhode Island says that parental monitoring — knowing where your teenagers are, who they're with, what they're doing — also pays off in terms of less drinking when they go off to college.

"The protective effects that parents exert in high school continue to be influential into college," Wood says. "Even after a time when the kids have left the home. So it's the internalization of those values, attitudes and expectations that seem to continue to exert an effect.""