Anonymous
Post 09/28/2023 15:12     Subject: If you are wealthy would you send your kids to a W school over private?
We send out kid to W school after being at private though 8th grade. I would only go private for HS if it was one of a few schools that can match the rigor available at our current public. I’m this depends greatly on where you live and which schools you are considering. Sidwell, Cathedral schools, GDS are the only we would have gone to for private upper school. I would not pick a less selective private over a highly regarded public in the dmv as your kid will end up with fewer options, choices and less experienced educators. Obviously if the size matters more than rigor for them then any private is the way to go. But We did not expect to be as impressed as we are with the public our child is at, in terms of cohort in advanced classes, tons of academic teams and service options and sports and theater/music. This is not an easy question to answer if we don’t know anything about your child or the private you are considering against which pubic.
Anonymous
Post 09/28/2023 15:06     Subject: Re:If you are wealthy would you send your kids to a W school over private?
Anonymous wrote:I would and am. MCPS is not what it was 20 years ago. Private schools give a value add for your kids that public does not--smaller classes, better sports, superior food, a better network, far superior facilities.

Private school recruiting again!
Anonymous
Post 09/28/2023 08:08     Subject: If you are wealthy would you send your kids to a W school over private?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:There’s a difference between true special needs and kids who need more support than a large public can give for particular social, academic or behavioral issues. From what I have seen I agree that these kids eventually leave W public feeders for privates where they can get more individual attention.



There’s a variety of privates - some that are specifically for special needs students (examples are Ivymount, McLean School, and the Lab School). There are some private schools that have inclusive and welcoming environment for students that need accommodations. Then there are some privates that won’t provide accommodations.

As a parent, I toured several private schools with my child before we found one that was the right fit. He is happier there with the smaller class sizes than his large W school. His disability is ADHD but he is gifted in science and math.

The private met with us to review his IEP from MCPS and the neuropsychological data and we came up with a plan similar to a 504 plan for accommodations. We hired a special education tutor for executive functioning coaching. The tutor was allowed to meet with him in the school library during his study hall session.

Point is that privates all have their niches.


Every private we know has support for kids who need 504-like accomodations. Sidwell, Landon, and many more have learning specialists who work with kids in this way. They don't call it special needs but it's really similar.


Special education is just good teaching practices that most students would benefit from. These practices are just easier to implement to all students when class sizes are under 20 students. Some privates have a mission to help students achieve. MCPS mission is to limit access to accommodations and services.


This is not true! Special education covers a wide range of accommodations and supports that allow students who NEED them to be able to access curriculum. While there may be SOME practices that would benefit all students many would not. The fact you believe that shows you don’t understand Special Education.

SOME privates will help w/mild special needs and accommodations, like ADHD that only requires more time, or dyslexia. Beyond that most privates will not accommodate special needs. The ones that do are schools specifically for special needs students.


A neighbor's kid with some special needs attended a local friend's school but was asked to leave when they proved to need to much. I think this is how privates typically handle these things.
Anonymous
Post 09/27/2023 23:43     Subject: Re:If you are wealthy would you send your kids to a W school over private?
Anonymous wrote:School security and social connections to wealthy and influential people are other reasons families choose private when money is not a factor.


We're at private and live in a W school district. While I don't need the connections, I realized once I started joining some of the committees how influential some peope are. My fellow committee members or their spouses are household names in DC.. the type you'd see doing an interview on CNN on regular basis for example.
Anonymous
Post 09/27/2023 23:36     Subject: Re:If you are wealthy would you send your kids to a W school over private?
I would and am. MCPS is not what it was 20 years ago. Private schools give a value add for your kids that public does not--smaller classes, better sports, superior food, a better network, far superior facilities.
Anonymous
Post 08/31/2023 08:36     Subject: If you are wealthy would you send your kids to a W school over private?
Anonymous wrote:I think the problem is with the word "some." I would say "many" or "most" or potentially "almost all" privates offer some kind of accommodations for mild special needs.

No unless they are special needs schools like McLean they are not going to take kids with more severe issues but there are a lot of 2e - gifted with an LD or ADHD - kids at top privates as there should be.


As a parent of a child who has disabilities, I cringe at the terms mild and severe. It’s subjective and disabilities are very diverse.

I would agree that if your child is in a Special Education pullout program (the Bridge program for example), then a private school specializing in special needs is where parents would place their child if they leave MCPS. In fact, MCPS pays for private placement for students at these schools when they can’t meet a child’s needs.

If a child is in a general education environment in MCPS, main stream private schools would be an option. These schools are independent institutions so their approach and offering of accommodations will vary so tours and meetings to see if the school is a good fit is important. You can get a good idea as to the if you share the testing data on your child with the private school and listen to their response and feedback.

Our experience was that a large Catholic high school would have been a bad fit but a smaller coed private understood our son and was very welcoming. It was the best decision we made as parents.
Anonymous
Post 08/31/2023 08:00     Subject: If you are wealthy would you send your kids to a W school over private?
I think the problem is with the word "some." I would say "many" or "most" or potentially "almost all" privates offer some kind of accommodations for mild special needs.

No unless they are special needs schools like McLean they are not going to take kids with more severe issues but there are a lot of 2e - gifted with an LD or ADHD - kids at top privates as there should be.
Anonymous
Post 08/31/2023 06:33     Subject: If you are wealthy would you send your kids to a W school over private?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:There’s a difference between true special needs and kids who need more support than a large public can give for particular social, academic or behavioral issues. From what I have seen I agree that these kids eventually leave W public feeders for privates where they can get more individual attention.



There’s a variety of privates - some that are specifically for special needs students (examples are Ivymount, McLean School, and the Lab School). There are some private schools that have inclusive and welcoming environment for students that need accommodations. Then there are some privates that won’t provide accommodations.

As a parent, I toured several private schools with my child before we found one that was the right fit. He is happier there with the smaller class sizes than his large W school. His disability is ADHD but he is gifted in science and math.

The private met with us to review his IEP from MCPS and the neuropsychological data and we came up with a plan similar to a 504 plan for accommodations. We hired a special education tutor for executive functioning coaching. The tutor was allowed to meet with him in the school library during his study hall session.

Point is that privates all have their niches.


Every private we know has support for kids who need 504-like accomodations. Sidwell, Landon, and many more have learning specialists who work with kids in this way. They don't call it special needs but it's really similar.


Special education is just good teaching practices that most students would benefit from. These practices are just easier to implement to all students when class sizes are under 20 students. Some privates have a mission to help students achieve. MCPS mission is to limit access to accommodations and services.


This is not true! Special education covers a wide range of accommodations and supports that allow students who NEED them to be able to access curriculum. While there may be SOME practices that would benefit all students many would not. The fact you believe that shows you don’t understand Special Education.

SOME privates will help w/mild special needs and accommodations, like ADHD that only requires more time, or dyslexia. Beyond that most privates will not accommodate special needs. The ones that do are schools specifically for special needs students.


You are so wrong. Our son attended MCPS and had ADHD. He was only offered extra time and priority seating. We pushed for other accommodations to no avail.

My daughter attends a top all girls private school that does NOT specialize in special needs. She also has ADHD and gets more than we asked for for accommodations, inclluding extra time, priority seating, small group testing, write directly on test, one exam per day (testing limit of 3 hours per day), computer for written work. The beauty of this is that this plan is not just a written piece of paper. Teachers actually take action with these accommodations without any prompting.
Anonymous
Post 08/31/2023 01:33     Subject: If you are wealthy would you send your kids to a W school over private?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:There’s a difference between true special needs and kids who need more support than a large public can give for particular social, academic or behavioral issues. From what I have seen I agree that these kids eventually leave W public feeders for privates where they can get more individual attention.



There’s a variety of privates - some that are specifically for special needs students (examples are Ivymount, McLean School, and the Lab School). There are some private schools that have inclusive and welcoming environment for students that need accommodations. Then there are some privates that won’t provide accommodations.

As a parent, I toured several private schools with my child before we found one that was the right fit. He is happier there with the smaller class sizes than his large W school. His disability is ADHD but he is gifted in science and math.

The private met with us to review his IEP from MCPS and the neuropsychological data and we came up with a plan similar to a 504 plan for accommodations. We hired a special education tutor for executive functioning coaching. The tutor was allowed to meet with him in the school library during his study hall session.

Point is that privates all have their niches.


Every private we know has support for kids who need 504-like accomodations. Sidwell, Landon, and many more have learning specialists who work with kids in this way. They don't call it special needs but it's really similar.


Special education is just good teaching practices that most students would benefit from. These practices are just easier to implement to all students when class sizes are under 20 students. Some privates have a mission to help students achieve. MCPS mission is to limit access to accommodations and services.


This is not true! Special education covers a wide range of accommodations and supports that allow students who NEED them to be able to access curriculum. While there may be SOME practices that would benefit all students many would not. The fact you believe that shows you don’t understand Special Education.

SOME privates will help w/mild special needs and accommodations, like ADHD that only requires more time, or dyslexia. Beyond that most privates will not accommodate special needs. The ones that do are schools specifically for special needs students.


Your view is outdated. I really can't think of any top school that does not support mild special needs with extra time, extra office hours, and a learning specialist. They all do it. Maybe if it's a poorer private or a Catholic school they might not do it?


How is the view outdate or wrong. I said SOME school’s would support a student with mild disabilities like dyslexia or some level of ADHD. Certainly not all, maybe most, but still meets the description of some. But most private schools are not going beyond that. If a student has intense behavioral issues even if from a disability they will be counseled out or not admitted at all. If the disability requires certain therapies or specialist, most families will not be admitted unless it’s understood that parents will provide private therapy/tutors/counseling.

This is not a secret. Go to any open house or call up any private school and ask them.


This, we have done both private and public. Both were ok depending on the teachers. What it really comes down to is the teachers you get that year. We were doing great in private but we had to do private therapies but the school was great about giving my child a bit of extra help, in some ways a bit to much. In public we also had to pay for private services, but could afford to do more without the private tuition as MCPS services were a joke and huge waste of time.
Anonymous
Post 08/30/2023 23:50     Subject: If you are wealthy would you send your kids to a W school over private?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:There’s a difference between true special needs and kids who need more support than a large public can give for particular social, academic or behavioral issues. From what I have seen I agree that these kids eventually leave W public feeders for privates where they can get more individual attention.



There’s a variety of privates - some that are specifically for special needs students (examples are Ivymount, McLean School, and the Lab School). There are some private schools that have inclusive and welcoming environment for students that need accommodations. Then there are some privates that won’t provide accommodations.

As a parent, I toured several private schools with my child before we found one that was the right fit. He is happier there with the smaller class sizes than his large W school. His disability is ADHD but he is gifted in science and math.

The private met with us to review his IEP from MCPS and the neuropsychological data and we came up with a plan similar to a 504 plan for accommodations. We hired a special education tutor for executive functioning coaching. The tutor was allowed to meet with him in the school library during his study hall session.

Point is that privates all have their niches.


Every private we know has support for kids who need 504-like accomodations. Sidwell, Landon, and many more have learning specialists who work with kids in this way. They don't call it special needs but it's really similar.


Special education is just good teaching practices that most students would benefit from. These practices are just easier to implement to all students when class sizes are under 20 students. Some privates have a mission to help students achieve. MCPS mission is to limit access to accommodations and services.


This is not true! Special education covers a wide range of accommodations and supports that allow students who NEED them to be able to access curriculum. While there may be SOME practices that would benefit all students many would not. The fact you believe that shows you don’t understand Special Education.

SOME privates will help w/mild special needs and accommodations, like ADHD that only requires more time, or dyslexia. Beyond that most privates will not accommodate special needs. The ones that do are schools specifically for special needs students.


Your view is outdated. I really can't think of any top school that does not support mild special needs with extra time, extra office hours, and a learning specialist. They all do it. Maybe if it's a poorer private or a Catholic school they might not do it?


How is the view outdate or wrong. I said SOME school’s would support a student with mild disabilities like dyslexia or some level of ADHD. Certainly not all, maybe most, but still meets the description of some. But most private schools are not going beyond that. If a student has intense behavioral issues even if from a disability they will be counseled out or not admitted at all. If the disability requires certain therapies or specialist, most families will not be admitted unless it’s understood that parents will provide private therapy/tutors/counseling.

This is not a secret. Go to any open house or call up any private school and ask them.
Anonymous
Post 08/30/2023 18:33     Subject: If you are wealthy would you send your kids to a W school over private?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:There’s a difference between true special needs and kids who need more support than a large public can give for particular social, academic or behavioral issues. From what I have seen I agree that these kids eventually leave W public feeders for privates where they can get more individual attention.



There’s a variety of privates - some that are specifically for special needs students (examples are Ivymount, McLean School, and the Lab School). There are some private schools that have inclusive and welcoming environment for students that need accommodations. Then there are some privates that won’t provide accommodations.

As a parent, I toured several private schools with my child before we found one that was the right fit. He is happier there with the smaller class sizes than his large W school. His disability is ADHD but he is gifted in science and math.

The private met with us to review his IEP from MCPS and the neuropsychological data and we came up with a plan similar to a 504 plan for accommodations. We hired a special education tutor for executive functioning coaching. The tutor was allowed to meet with him in the school library during his study hall session.

Point is that privates all have their niches.


Every private we know has support for kids who need 504-like accomodations. Sidwell, Landon, and many more have learning specialists who work with kids in this way. They don't call it special needs but it's really similar.


Special education is just good teaching practices that most students would benefit from. These practices are just easier to implement to all students when class sizes are under 20 students. Some privates have a mission to help students achieve. MCPS mission is to limit access to accommodations and services.


This is not true! Special education covers a wide range of accommodations and supports that allow students who NEED them to be able to access curriculum. While there may be SOME practices that would benefit all students many would not. The fact you believe that shows you don’t understand Special Education.

SOME privates will help w/mild special needs and accommodations, like ADHD that only requires more time, or dyslexia. Beyond that most privates will not accommodate special needs. The ones that do are schools specifically for special needs students.


Your view is outdated. I really can't think of any top school that does not support mild special needs with extra time, extra office hours, and a learning specialist. They all do it. Maybe if it's a poorer private or a Catholic school they might not do it?


Or maybe PP doesn’t have any experience with children with disabilities including those who left MCPS for private. Parents in MCPS pay thousands of dollars per year because MCPS doesn’t provide the services children need. Those who can afford private, leave.
Anonymous
Post 08/30/2023 08:58     Subject: If you are wealthy would you send your kids to a W school over private?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:There’s a difference between true special needs and kids who need more support than a large public can give for particular social, academic or behavioral issues. From what I have seen I agree that these kids eventually leave W public feeders for privates where they can get more individual attention.



There’s a variety of privates - some that are specifically for special needs students (examples are Ivymount, McLean School, and the Lab School). There are some private schools that have inclusive and welcoming environment for students that need accommodations. Then there are some privates that won’t provide accommodations.

As a parent, I toured several private schools with my child before we found one that was the right fit. He is happier there with the smaller class sizes than his large W school. His disability is ADHD but he is gifted in science and math.

The private met with us to review his IEP from MCPS and the neuropsychological data and we came up with a plan similar to a 504 plan for accommodations. We hired a special education tutor for executive functioning coaching. The tutor was allowed to meet with him in the school library during his study hall session.

Point is that privates all have their niches.


Every private we know has support for kids who need 504-like accomodations. Sidwell, Landon, and many more have learning specialists who work with kids in this way. They don't call it special needs but it's really similar.


Special education is just good teaching practices that most students would benefit from. These practices are just easier to implement to all students when class sizes are under 20 students. Some privates have a mission to help students achieve. MCPS mission is to limit access to accommodations and services.


This is not true! Special education covers a wide range of accommodations and supports that allow students who NEED them to be able to access curriculum. While there may be SOME practices that would benefit all students many would not. The fact you believe that shows you don’t understand Special Education.

SOME privates will help w/mild special needs and accommodations, like ADHD that only requires more time, or dyslexia. Beyond that most privates will not accommodate special needs. The ones that do are schools specifically for special needs students.


Your view is outdated. I really can't think of any top school that does not support mild special needs with extra time, extra office hours, and a learning specialist. They all do it. Maybe if it's a poorer private or a Catholic school they might not do it?
Anonymous
Post 08/30/2023 08:56     Subject: If you are wealthy would you send your kids to a W school over private?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:There’s a difference between true special needs and kids who need more support than a large public can give for particular social, academic or behavioral issues. From what I have seen I agree that these kids eventually leave W public feeders for privates where they can get more individual attention.



There’s a variety of privates - some that are specifically for special needs students (examples are Ivymount, McLean School, and the Lab School). There are some private schools that have inclusive and welcoming environment for students that need accommodations. Then there are some privates that won’t provide accommodations.

As a parent, I toured several private schools with my child before we found one that was the right fit. He is happier there with the smaller class sizes than his large W school. His disability is ADHD but he is gifted in science and math.

The private met with us to review his IEP from MCPS and the neuropsychological data and we came up with a plan similar to a 504 plan for accommodations. We hired a special education tutor for executive functioning coaching. The tutor was allowed to meet with him in the school library during his study hall session.

Point is that privates all have their niches.


Every private we know has support for kids who need 504-like accomodations. Sidwell, Landon, and many more have learning specialists who work with kids in this way. They don't call it special needs but it's really similar.


Special education is just good teaching practices that most students would benefit from. These practices are just easier to implement to all students when class sizes are under 20 students. Some privates have a mission to help students achieve. MCPS mission is to limit access to accommodations and services.


This is not true! Special education covers a wide range of accommodations and supports that allow students who NEED them to be able to access curriculum. While there may be SOME practices that would benefit all students many would not. The fact you believe that shows you don’t understand Special Education.

SOME privates will help w/mild special needs and accommodations, like ADHD that only requires more time, or dyslexia. Beyond that most privates will not accommodate special needs. The ones that do are schools specifically for special needs students.


I think your ignorance regarding Special Education is showing just by your description of ADHD and dyslexia. Also, with your over generalization of what supports privates can offer.

Unlike MCPS, the focus of most privates is on the child not the label. Using your example of ADHD - ADHD students are more easily distracted in a classroom. It’s easier for a private school teacher to keep them on task as well as all students on task because of the smaller class sizes. There’s also less distractions because of the smaller class sizes.

Some students with ADHD (very important to point out not ALL) are hyperactive. A teacher with a smaller class size can help a child who is hyperactive learn coping strategies to improve the behavior. Same with all students in the classroom.

Many students with ADHD have difficulty with time management and organizational skills. These can be taught with universal design (to all students) when there are small class sizes to allow a teacher to see each child’s notebook, work product, and day planner. A teacher also can give immediate feedback if a child is unprepared for class, falling behind, or misses a deadline. In private, there are quicker interventions like coming in for office hours or communicating with parents.

Also, how do you define ADHD as a mild disability? ADHD is on the spectrum with some students borderline with autism. ADHD is also often comorbid with other disabilities such as anxiety and depression.

Our experience was that MCPS didn’t take the time to understand our child or his disability. He had an IEP that didn’t address his needs because false stereotypes of those needs similarly to PP. A private placement was better for him than the W school he was first enrolled in.


The young man who was the tour guide for our daughter’s school told us that he switched from MCPS to private school because he’s dyslexic and MCPS wasn’t helping him.

It’s just one example, but it speaks to your point.
Anonymous
Post 08/30/2023 08:45     Subject: If you are wealthy would you send your kids to a W school over private?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:There’s a difference between true special needs and kids who need more support than a large public can give for particular social, academic or behavioral issues. From what I have seen I agree that these kids eventually leave W public feeders for privates where they can get more individual attention.



There’s a variety of privates - some that are specifically for special needs students (examples are Ivymount, McLean School, and the Lab School). There are some private schools that have inclusive and welcoming environment for students that need accommodations. Then there are some privates that won’t provide accommodations.

As a parent, I toured several private schools with my child before we found one that was the right fit. He is happier there with the smaller class sizes than his large W school. His disability is ADHD but he is gifted in science and math.

The private met with us to review his IEP from MCPS and the neuropsychological data and we came up with a plan similar to a 504 plan for accommodations. We hired a special education tutor for executive functioning coaching. The tutor was allowed to meet with him in the school library during his study hall session.

Point is that privates all have their niches.


Every private we know has support for kids who need 504-like accomodations. Sidwell, Landon, and many more have learning specialists who work with kids in this way. They don't call it special needs but it's really similar.


Special education is just good teaching practices that most students would benefit from. These practices are just easier to implement to all students when class sizes are under 20 students. Some privates have a mission to help students achieve. MCPS mission is to limit access to accommodations and services.


This is not true! Special education covers a wide range of accommodations and supports that allow students who NEED them to be able to access curriculum. While there may be SOME practices that would benefit all students many would not. The fact you believe that shows you don’t understand Special Education.

SOME privates will help w/mild special needs and accommodations, like ADHD that only requires more time, or dyslexia. Beyond that most privates will not accommodate special needs. The ones that do are schools specifically for special needs students.


I think your ignorance regarding Special Education is showing just by your description of ADHD and dyslexia. Also, with your over generalization of what supports privates can offer.

Unlike MCPS, the focus of most privates is on the child not the label. Using your example of ADHD - ADHD students are more easily distracted in a classroom. It’s easier for a private school teacher to keep them on task as well as all students on task because of the smaller class sizes. There’s also less distractions because of the smaller class sizes.

Some students with ADHD (very important to point out not ALL) are hyperactive. A teacher with a smaller class size can help a child who is hyperactive learn coping strategies to improve the behavior. Same with all students in the classroom.

Many students with ADHD have difficulty with time management and organizational skills. These can be taught with universal design (to all students) when there are small class sizes to allow a teacher to see each child’s notebook, work product, and day planner. A teacher also can give immediate feedback if a child is unprepared for class, falling behind, or misses a deadline. In private, there are quicker interventions like coming in for office hours or communicating with parents.

Also, how do you define ADHD as a mild disability? ADHD is on the spectrum with some students borderline with autism. ADHD is also often comorbid with other disabilities such as anxiety and depression.

Our experience was that MCPS didn’t take the time to understand our child or his disability. He had an IEP that didn’t address his needs because false stereotypes of those needs similarly to PP. A private placement was better for him than the W school he was first enrolled in.
Anonymous
Post 08/30/2023 08:13     Subject: If you are wealthy would you send your kids to a W school over private?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:There’s a difference between true special needs and kids who need more support than a large public can give for particular social, academic or behavioral issues. From what I have seen I agree that these kids eventually leave W public feeders for privates where they can get more individual attention.



There’s a variety of privates - some that are specifically for special needs students (examples are Ivymount, McLean School, and the Lab School). There are some private schools that have inclusive and welcoming environment for students that need accommodations. Then there are some privates that won’t provide accommodations.

As a parent, I toured several private schools with my child before we found one that was the right fit. He is happier there with the smaller class sizes than his large W school. His disability is ADHD but he is gifted in science and math.

The private met with us to review his IEP from MCPS and the neuropsychological data and we came up with a plan similar to a 504 plan for accommodations. We hired a special education tutor for executive functioning coaching. The tutor was allowed to meet with him in the school library during his study hall session.

Point is that privates all have their niches.


Every private we know has support for kids who need 504-like accomodations. Sidwell, Landon, and many more have learning specialists who work with kids in this way. They don't call it special needs but it's really similar.


Special education is just good teaching practices that most students would benefit from. These practices are just easier to implement to all students when class sizes are under 20 students. Some privates have a mission to help students achieve. MCPS mission is to limit access to accommodations and services.


This is not true! Special education covers a wide range of accommodations and supports that allow students who NEED them to be able to access curriculum. While there may be SOME practices that would benefit all students many would not. The fact you believe that shows you don’t understand Special Education.

SOME privates will help w/mild special needs and accommodations, like ADHD that only requires more time, or dyslexia. Beyond that most privates will not accommodate special needs. The ones that do are schools specifically for special needs students.