Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:
People here also seem to have a perception of psychosis that is very inaccurate. Many have probably only interacted with severe mental illness with someone on the street with a particular type of psychosis happening. Sometimes delusions are quite quiet and impossible for the person experiencing them to determine what is happening. They are completely unaware. If she had fallen deeper it may explain why she had been raising flags earlier but stopped. Frankly based on my experience it all makes sense. The mental illness got worse and she was now in a state where she couldn’t decipher between which often looks like hiding it - she likely later would have said if this didn’t happen that she doesn’t really remember this time (now she might say that too but folks will be suspicious)

Thank you for this very cogent description. Since I fully believe that you're speaking from experience, I wonder if you would be willing to expand a bit on the bolded?

Pp here. Speaking from professional experience, not personal but for example, in order for something to be a delusion a person basically has to believe in something wildly untrue (not using clinical speak here ha) despite clear evidence to the contrary. But what can often be tricky is someone with delusions (this is just an example, I have no idea if she was having delusions), can be very normal in all other scenarios until something comes up about the delusion. You can be having an incredibly normal conversation and if you avoid the particular topic where the delusion lies, you would truly never know. It’s only if you happen to engage on that particular belief that suddenly things will seem very off. And the person doesn’t realize how off it is because for them it is reality so they wouldn’t say oh hey I’m concerned about myself I need help. There isn’t self awareness at this point.

I am in no way saying this particular situation with delusions being primary is what was happening, but instead trying to share that it is far more common than people here seem to think that someone could be having very scary thoughts or thoughts not aligned with reality and it not be immediately obvious every moment (like you can still call the pharmacy). Also, more likely in her scenario someone can at some points be in a place where when they have auditory hallucinations or intrusive thoughts where they are still aware and feel separate from them and then are more likely to say hey something is going on with me I need help like she did for the initial intrusive thoughts. But in different states, people can be very unaware and it’s like the self awareness is removed so they are in a state where they believe the voices or feel almost disconnected to themselves and very unaware of themselves and what they are doing. So they wouldn’t necessarily say anything to anyone even though they aren’t intentionally hiding it. Anyway there are so many ways it can present and I just think we cannot say what was going on for her based on the fact that she could have some conversations before this happened.

That is really fascinating. It almost sounds as though you are saying that if someone had a deeply delusional belief that was the product of postpartum psychosis that developed from postpartum depression or anxiety, she might have gone through a course of illness in which she seemed outwardly "better"--less floridly depressed--while actually being much more dangerously ill. Y/N?

Yes. It’s kind of like how someone who is deeply depressed can seem better before they complete a suicide attempt. The mind is powerful and it can trick us, trick really good humans into doing things they would never do when not in that state. I have no idea of knowing what happened that day or the weeks before but I do know that mental illness and the way it presents is complex.

And folks are asserting that I don’t want to think a suburban mom could kill in cold blood, I personally think that those jumping to cold blood arguments despite the evidence of postpartum depression that makes way more sense don’t want to think that they too could lose control of their mind. That we are all less in control than we’d like to think, that psychosis or deep depression can happen to any of us and take away much of our rational thinking. It’s a scary scary thought. And it’s easier in a way to think it’s just an evil person because then you can say it won’t/couldn’t happen to you or someone you love and you can take the easy route of saying she’s a monster.

It’s the other way around. You’re jumping to “PPD/ PPP made her homicidal!” despite her having no diagnosis of PPP/PPD by medical professionals who treated and knew her better than you, because it’s a scary scary thought that the nice white lady could plan and execute such a horrific crime. All you Lindsay fans and army of love’ers are basically just racists writing paragraphs of conjecture and word salad because you’re terrified an umc white lady could be blamed and locked away for a crime she did commit.

You have several people here saying that it is entirely possible, and more statistically likely, that she was misdiagnosed or on a path to psychosis that was not detected than that she is a stone cold psychopath. You are presenting no argument against that—just ad hominem. Weak tea.

+1 it is apparently triggering for folks that some of us think Lindsay’s documented mental illness may have escalated and played a role here. I truly don’t understand why. Yet those folks are not showing any evidence that I see that shows the contrary (evidence of prior abuse? Domestic violence in the home? Neglect?) just that she googlemapped a takeout order?? I literally did that last week for a new place I wanted my husband to pick up at. Our diagnostic system is limited. It is helpful and necessary, and has limitations. We do not have good diagnostic criteria for postpartum issues. It was obviously more than GAD or they wouldn’t have hospitalized her. That’s just not something someone ends up in patient for. She had suicidal thoughts and thoughts of harming her children. Thoughts that everyone who knew her is saying unequivocally were not aligned with how she typically is.

You feel like I’m tying myself up in knots to defend her but I feel like you are tying yourself in knots trying to convince yourself this was in cold blood with very little evidence. The prosecution was making their case that she was not safe to leave and that she committed this crime. Everyone agrees with that.

There may be projection happening for me sure, but there is for anyone who is also adamantly saying they know it was in cold blood despite a recent inpatient hospitalization for SI/HI. The jump is huge.

She self-presented at McLean stating she was afraid of hurting herself. At one point (once!) prior to Janaury, she had told her husband that she had thoughts of harming the children she resented so much. The McLean doctors did not come up with a psychosis diagnosis - in fact, the word was not uttered by Lindsay until +10 days after everything occurred... during the same conversation she told her husband she still loves him. She sounds like a master manipulator.

It feels awfully convenient where she was treated by the best doctors at multiple health systems, psychosis never came up, but now it's all, "oh, well, she could've been PPP but not yet diagnosed". It feels like a literal get out of jail free excuse to me. I will grant you, you have to be not in your right mind to do what she did, but can't you say that for anyone who commits a horrible crime? We still punish those people. Plenty of school shooters have severe mental health issues (welllllll beyond GAD), report heaving voices (Parkland shooter, for one), with horrible home lives/extenuating circumstances, but they don't walk free. Why is it different w/ Lindsay?

Why would a master manipulator say either of those things months before committing these acts? It just doesn't make sense.

And agree with PP: I'm not saying she deserves to walk free.

Also folks are acting like she needed those 30-45 min alone and that’s why she planned this whole take out excursion intentionally. Again this makes no sense to me, she was the primary caregiver if you look at the timeline she had plenty of time alone with the children. And if she was a master manipulator why wouldn’t she have planned better??? This left 0 chance she wouldn’t be very clearly the killer. The whole argument makes nooo sense. If she was such a master and wanted a different life why wouldn’t she have planned even a tiny bit better?

Also folks are acting like they know the extent of what Lindsay has said over these last days because they’ve heard a few small sound bites. We know very little.

She really wasn't "alone" with the kids. Her husband worked from home. Do you think she could have strangled her five year old in the doctor's office?

Her husband worked in the basement. She could easily have killed her kids on the top floor without him hearing. A child being asphyxiated by an exercise band cannot scream or cry, so if she killed them one by one in separate rooms they wouldn’t even be able to alert each other of the danger.

This was a psychotic break. As Rusty Yates said, if she’d had a cardiac arrest or seizure while driving and all three kids perished but she didn’t, it wouldn’t even be a consideration to prosecute her. Since she is a woman of childbearing age she should be hospitalized and supervised until she no longer is a woman of childbearing age. That’s appropriate justice, I think.

Anonymous wrote:

Andrea Yates' husband says paralyzed midwife mom with post partum shouldn't be prosecuted

The ex-husband of Andrea Yates, the mother who drowned her five children in a bathtub in 2001 while battling postpartum , is speaking out again 22 years after their deaths to call for prosecutors to drop charges against Lindsay Clancy, who is now facing charges for killing her three kids.

Andrea drowned the five children she shared with Russell 'Rusty' Yates in Houston in 2001. She was battling postpartum depression, postpartum psychosis and schizophrenia. She was convicted of five counts of capital murder and sentenced to life in prison, but the verdict was overturned in 2006, when she was found not guilty by reason of insanity.

For the last 16 years, she has been receiving care in a mental hospital, and declines eligibility for release every year.

Russell - who divorced Andrea in 2015 but always said he had forgiven her, appeared on Chris Cuomo's NewsNation show as Lindsay Clancy, 32,

He has long maintained that his wife's criminal trial was the 'cruelest thing he had ever witnessed.’

He says women who suffer with postpartum depression should not face criminal prosecution, because it's a sickness.

'If I were driving our Suburban down the street and had a heart attack and swerved into oncoming traffic and everyone in the car died but me, would they prosecute me for capital murder and rub my face in crime scene photos? Of my children?

'I don't think so. But to me, it's 100% exactly the same.'

Yates went on to explain how the psychosis had been explained to him by psychiatrists.

'It's much like having a dream or nightmare overlaid on reality so that a person sees things that aren't real, hears voices that aren't real, believes things to be true that aren't true and they act on that.

'It's every bit a part of their reality as everything else - they can't distinguish between those thoughts and images and voices and anything else,' he said, explaining the psychosis that overtook his wife.

'Andrea was a wonderful mother. When someone acts so out of character like that it's a flag that something else is going on. As far as forgiveness goes, it's kind of the start.

'If something is completely out of character, this can't be right.

'At the time, I did not know that she’d been psychotic, I did not know what psychosis even was or what the symptoms were.'

He also rejected the idea that husbands or partners can protect their children from harm, saying: 'You can do all you can but you really can't protect yourself from a psychotic person at home.

'They can get up in the middle of the night and light the house on fire or poison everyone.

'The next step of forgiveness (for other people), I’d say, is understanding it’s a sickness, that but for her sickness, she would never, ever, ever would have harmed our children.'

Andrea was found guilty of capital murder and was sentenced to life with the possibility of parole following the 2001 deaths of her children.

That verdict was overturned following appeals from her lawyers and at a new trial in 2006, she was found not guilty of murder by reason of insanity.

The following year, she was sent to the Kerrville State Hospital. She has remained there ever since.

Every year, she is eligible for review to determine whether she should be released.

She waives that review annually, choosing instead to stay in treatment.

In 2015, she and Rusty finalized their divorce. Her only conditions were that she be given the right to be buried near her children, and that she receive a nursing chair she used when the kids were alive and young.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
People here also seem to have a perception of psychosis that is very inaccurate. Many have probably only interacted with severe mental illness with someone on the street with a particular type of psychosis happening. Sometimes delusions are quite quiet and impossible for the person experiencing them to determine what is happening. They are completely unaware. If she had fallen deeper it may explain why she had been raising flags earlier but stopped. Frankly based on my experience it all makes sense. The mental illness got worse and she was now in a state where she couldn’t decipher between which often looks like hiding it - she likely later would have said if this didn’t happen that she doesn’t really remember this time (now she might say that too but folks will be suspicious)

Thank you for this very cogent description. Since I fully believe that you're speaking from experience, I wonder if you would be willing to expand a bit on the bolded?

Pp here. Speaking from professional experience, not personal but for example, in order for something to be a delusion a person basically has to believe in something wildly untrue (not using clinical speak here ha) despite clear evidence to the contrary. But what can often be tricky is someone with delusions (this is just an example, I have no idea if she was having delusions), can be very normal in all other scenarios until something comes up about the delusion. You can be having an incredibly normal conversation and if you avoid the particular topic where the delusion lies, you would truly never know. It’s only if you happen to engage on that particular belief that suddenly things will seem very off. And the person doesn’t realize how off it is because for them it is reality so they wouldn’t say oh hey I’m concerned about myself I need help. There isn’t self awareness at this point.

I am in no way saying this particular situation with delusions being primary is what was happening, but instead trying to share that it is far more common than people here seem to think that someone could be having very scary thoughts or thoughts not aligned with reality and it not be immediately obvious every moment (like you can still call the pharmacy). Also, more likely in her scenario someone can at some points be in a place where when they have auditory hallucinations or intrusive thoughts where they are still aware and feel separate from them and then are more likely to say hey something is going on with me I need help like she did for the initial intrusive thoughts. But in different states, people can be very unaware and it’s like the self awareness is removed so they are in a state where they believe the voices or feel almost disconnected to themselves and very unaware of themselves and what they are doing. So they wouldn’t necessarily say anything to anyone even though they aren’t intentionally hiding it. Anyway there are so many ways it can present and I just think we cannot say what was going on for her based on the fact that she could have some conversations before this happened.

That is really fascinating. It almost sounds as though you are saying that if someone had a deeply delusional belief that was the product of postpartum psychosis that developed from postpartum depression or anxiety, she might have gone through a course of illness in which she seemed outwardly "better"--less floridly depressed--while actually being much more dangerously ill. Y/N?

Yes. It’s kind of like how someone who is deeply depressed can seem better before they complete a suicide attempt. The mind is powerful and it can trick us, trick really good humans into doing things they would never do when not in that state. I have no idea of knowing what happened that day or the weeks before but I do know that mental illness and the way it presents is complex.

And folks are asserting that I don’t want to think a suburban mom could kill in cold blood, I personally think that those jumping to cold blood arguments despite the evidence of postpartum depression that makes way more sense don’t want to think that they too could lose control of their mind. That we are all less in control than we’d like to think, that psychosis or deep depression can happen to any of us and take away much of our rational thinking. It’s a scary scary thought. And it’s easier in a way to think it’s just an evil person because then you can say it won’t/couldn’t happen to you or someone you love and you can take the easy route of saying she’s a monster.

It’s the other way around. You’re jumping to “PPD/ PPP made her homicidal!” despite her having no diagnosis of PPP/PPD by medical professionals who treated and knew her better than you, because it’s a scary scary thought that the nice white lady could plan and execute such a horrific crime. All you Lindsay fans and army of love’ers are basically just racists writing paragraphs of conjecture and word salad because you’re terrified an umc white lady could be blamed and locked away for a crime she did commit.

You have several people here saying that it is entirely possible, and more statistically likely, that she was misdiagnosed or on a path to psychosis that was not detected than that she is a stone cold psychopath. You are presenting no argument against that—just ad hominem. Weak tea.

+1 it is apparently triggering for folks that some of us think Lindsay’s documented mental illness may have escalated and played a role here. I truly don’t understand why. Yet those folks are not showing any evidence that I see that shows the contrary (evidence of prior abuse? Domestic violence in the home? Neglect?) just that she googlemapped a takeout order?? I literally did that last week for a new place I wanted my husband to pick up at. Our diagnostic system is limited. It is helpful and necessary, and has limitations. We do not have good diagnostic criteria for postpartum issues. It was obviously more than GAD or they wouldn’t have hospitalized her. That’s just not something someone ends up in patient for. She had suicidal thoughts and thoughts of harming her children. Thoughts that everyone who knew her is saying unequivocally were not aligned with how she typically is.

You feel like I’m tying myself up in knots to defend her but I feel like you are tying yourself in knots trying to convince yourself this was in cold blood with very little evidence. The prosecution was making their case that she was not safe to leave and that she committed this crime. Everyone agrees with that.

There may be projection happening for me sure, but there is for anyone who is also adamantly saying they know it was in cold blood despite a recent inpatient hospitalization for SI/HI. The jump is huge.

She self-presented at McLean stating she was afraid of hurting herself. At one point (once!) prior to Janaury, she had told her husband that she had thoughts of harming the children she resented so much. The McLean doctors did not come up with a psychosis diagnosis - in fact, the word was not uttered by Lindsay until +10 days after everything occurred... during the same conversation she told her husband she still loves him. She sounds like a master manipulator.

It feels awfully convenient where she was treated by the best doctors at multiple health systems, psychosis never came up, but now it's all, "oh, well, she could've been PPP but not yet diagnosed". It feels like a literal get out of jail free excuse to me. I will grant you, you have to be not in your right mind to do what she did, but can't you say that for anyone who commits a horrible crime? We still punish those people. Plenty of school shooters have severe mental health issues (welllllll beyond GAD), report heaving voices (Parkland shooter, for one), with horrible home lives/extenuating circumstances, but they don't walk free. Why is it different w/ Lindsay?

Why would a master manipulator say either of those things months before committing these acts? It just doesn't make sense.

And agree with PP: I'm not saying she deserves to walk free.

Also folks are acting like she needed those 30-45 min alone and that’s why she planned this whole take out excursion intentionally. Again this makes no sense to me, she was the primary caregiver if you look at the timeline she had plenty of time alone with the children. And if she was a master manipulator why wouldn’t she have planned better??? This left 0 chance she wouldn’t be very clearly the killer. The whole argument makes nooo sense. If she was such a master and wanted a different life why wouldn’t she have planned even a tiny bit better?

Also folks are acting like they know the extent of what Lindsay has said over these last days because they’ve heard a few small sound bites. We know very little.

She really wasn't "alone" with the kids. Her husband worked from home. Do you think she could have strangled her five year old in the doctor's office?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
People here also seem to have a perception of psychosis that is very inaccurate. Many have probably only interacted with severe mental illness with someone on the street with a particular type of psychosis happening. Sometimes delusions are quite quiet and impossible for the person experiencing them to determine what is happening. They are completely unaware. If she had fallen deeper it may explain why she had been raising flags earlier but stopped. Frankly based on my experience it all makes sense. The mental illness got worse and she was now in a state where she couldn’t decipher between which often looks like hiding it - she likely later would have said if this didn’t happen that she doesn’t really remember this time (now she might say that too but folks will be suspicious)

Thank you for this very cogent description. Since I fully believe that you're speaking from experience, I wonder if you would be willing to expand a bit on the bolded?

Pp here. Speaking from professional experience, not personal but for example, in order for something to be a delusion a person basically has to believe in something wildly untrue (not using clinical speak here ha) despite clear evidence to the contrary. But what can often be tricky is someone with delusions (this is just an example, I have no idea if she was having delusions), can be very normal in all other scenarios until something comes up about the delusion. You can be having an incredibly normal conversation and if you avoid the particular topic where the delusion lies, you would truly never know. It’s only if you happen to engage on that particular belief that suddenly things will seem very off. And the person doesn’t realize how off it is because for them it is reality so they wouldn’t say oh hey I’m concerned about myself I need help. There isn’t self awareness at this point.

I am in no way saying this particular situation with delusions being primary is what was happening, but instead trying to share that it is far more common than people here seem to think that someone could be having very scary thoughts or thoughts not aligned with reality and it not be immediately obvious every moment (like you can still call the pharmacy). Also, more likely in her scenario someone can at some points be in a place where when they have auditory hallucinations or intrusive thoughts where they are still aware and feel separate from them and then are more likely to say hey something is going on with me I need help like she did for the initial intrusive thoughts. But in different states, people can be very unaware and it’s like the self awareness is removed so they are in a state where they believe the voices or feel almost disconnected to themselves and very unaware of themselves and what they are doing. So they wouldn’t necessarily say anything to anyone even though they aren’t intentionally hiding it. Anyway there are so many ways it can present and I just think we cannot say what was going on for her based on the fact that she could have some conversations before this happened.

That is really fascinating. It almost sounds as though you are saying that if someone had a deeply delusional belief that was the product of postpartum psychosis that developed from postpartum depression or anxiety, she might have gone through a course of illness in which she seemed outwardly "better"--less floridly depressed--while actually being much more dangerously ill. Y/N?

Yes. It’s kind of like how someone who is deeply depressed can seem better before they complete a suicide attempt. The mind is powerful and it can trick us, trick really good humans into doing things they would never do when not in that state. I have no idea of knowing what happened that day or the weeks before but I do know that mental illness and the way it presents is complex.

And folks are asserting that I don’t want to think a suburban mom could kill in cold blood, I personally think that those jumping to cold blood arguments despite the evidence of postpartum depression that makes way more sense don’t want to think that they too could lose control of their mind. That we are all less in control than we’d like to think, that psychosis or deep depression can happen to any of us and take away much of our rational thinking. It’s a scary scary thought. And it’s easier in a way to think it’s just an evil person because then you can say it won’t/couldn’t happen to you or someone you love and you can take the easy route of saying she’s a monster.

It’s the other way around. You’re jumping to “PPD/ PPP made her homicidal!” despite her having no diagnosis of PPP/PPD by medical professionals who treated and knew her better than you, because it’s a scary scary thought that the nice white lady could plan and execute such a horrific crime. All you Lindsay fans and army of love’ers are basically just racists writing paragraphs of conjecture and word salad because you’re terrified an umc white lady could be blamed and locked away for a crime she did commit.

You have several people here saying that it is entirely possible, and more statistically likely, that she was misdiagnosed or on a path to psychosis that was not detected than that she is a stone cold psychopath. You are presenting no argument against that—just ad hominem. Weak tea.

+1 it is apparently triggering for folks that some of us think Lindsay’s documented mental illness may have escalated and played a role here. I truly don’t understand why. Yet those folks are not showing any evidence that I see that shows the contrary (evidence of prior abuse? Domestic violence in the home? Neglect?) just that she googlemapped a takeout order?? I literally did that last week for a new place I wanted my husband to pick up at. Our diagnostic system is limited. It is helpful and necessary, and has limitations. We do not have good diagnostic criteria for postpartum issues. It was obviously more than GAD or they wouldn’t have hospitalized her. That’s just not something someone ends up in patient for. She had suicidal thoughts and thoughts of harming her children. Thoughts that everyone who knew her is saying unequivocally were not aligned with how she typically is.

You feel like I’m tying myself up in knots to defend her but I feel like you are tying yourself in knots trying to convince yourself this was in cold blood with very little evidence. The prosecution was making their case that she was not safe to leave and that she committed this crime. Everyone agrees with that.

There may be projection happening for me sure, but there is for anyone who is also adamantly saying they know it was in cold blood despite a recent inpatient hospitalization for SI/HI. The jump is huge.

She self-presented at McLean stating she was afraid of hurting herself. At one point (once!) prior to Janaury, she had told her husband that she had thoughts of harming the children she resented so much. The McLean doctors did not come up with a psychosis diagnosis - in fact, the word was not uttered by Lindsay until +10 days after everything occurred... during the same conversation she told her husband she still loves him. She sounds like a master manipulator.

It feels awfully convenient where she was treated by the best doctors at multiple health systems, psychosis never came up, but now it's all, "oh, well, she could've been PPP but not yet diagnosed". It feels like a literal get out of jail free excuse to me. I will grant you, you have to be not in your right mind to do what she did, but can't you say that for anyone who commits a horrible crime? We still punish those people. Plenty of school shooters have severe mental health issues (welllllll beyond GAD), report heaving voices (Parkland shooter, for one), with horrible home lives/extenuating circumstances, but they don't walk free. Why is it different w/ Lindsay?

Why would a master manipulator say either of those things months before committing these acts? It just doesn't make sense.

And agree with PP: I'm not saying she deserves to walk free.

Also folks are acting like she needed those 30-45 min alone and that’s why she planned this whole take out excursion intentionally. Again this makes no sense to me, she was the primary caregiver if you look at the timeline she had plenty of time alone with the children. And if she was a master manipulator why wouldn’t she have planned better??? This left 0 chance she wouldn’t be very clearly the killer. The whole argument makes nooo sense. If she was such a master and wanted a different life why wouldn’t she have planned even a tiny bit better?

Also folks are acting like they know the extent of what Lindsay has said over these last days because they’ve heard a few small sound bites. We know very little.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
People here also seem to have a perception of psychosis that is very inaccurate. Many have probably only interacted with severe mental illness with someone on the street with a particular type of psychosis happening. Sometimes delusions are quite quiet and impossible for the person experiencing them to determine what is happening. They are completely unaware. If she had fallen deeper it may explain why she had been raising flags earlier but stopped. Frankly based on my experience it all makes sense. The mental illness got worse and she was now in a state where she couldn’t decipher between which often looks like hiding it - she likely later would have said if this didn’t happen that she doesn’t really remember this time (now she might say that too but folks will be suspicious)

Thank you for this very cogent description. Since I fully believe that you're speaking from experience, I wonder if you would be willing to expand a bit on the bolded?

Pp here. Speaking from professional experience, not personal but for example, in order for something to be a delusion a person basically has to believe in something wildly untrue (not using clinical speak here ha) despite clear evidence to the contrary. But what can often be tricky is someone with delusions (this is just an example, I have no idea if she was having delusions), can be very normal in all other scenarios until something comes up about the delusion. You can be having an incredibly normal conversation and if you avoid the particular topic where the delusion lies, you would truly never know. It’s only if you happen to engage on that particular belief that suddenly things will seem very off. And the person doesn’t realize how off it is because for them it is reality so they wouldn’t say oh hey I’m concerned about myself I need help. There isn’t self awareness at this point.

I am in no way saying this particular situation with delusions being primary is what was happening, but instead trying to share that it is far more common than people here seem to think that someone could be having very scary thoughts or thoughts not aligned with reality and it not be immediately obvious every moment (like you can still call the pharmacy). Also, more likely in her scenario someone can at some points be in a place where when they have auditory hallucinations or intrusive thoughts where they are still aware and feel separate from them and then are more likely to say hey something is going on with me I need help like she did for the initial intrusive thoughts. But in different states, people can be very unaware and it’s like the self awareness is removed so they are in a state where they believe the voices or feel almost disconnected to themselves and very unaware of themselves and what they are doing. So they wouldn’t necessarily say anything to anyone even though they aren’t intentionally hiding it. Anyway there are so many ways it can present and I just think we cannot say what was going on for her based on the fact that she could have some conversations before this happened.

That is really fascinating. It almost sounds as though you are saying that if someone had a deeply delusional belief that was the product of postpartum psychosis that developed from postpartum depression or anxiety, she might have gone through a course of illness in which she seemed outwardly "better"--less floridly depressed--while actually being much more dangerously ill. Y/N?

Yes. It’s kind of like how someone who is deeply depressed can seem better before they complete a suicide attempt. The mind is powerful and it can trick us, trick really good humans into doing things they would never do when not in that state. I have no idea of knowing what happened that day or the weeks before but I do know that mental illness and the way it presents is complex.

And folks are asserting that I don’t want to think a suburban mom could kill in cold blood, I personally think that those jumping to cold blood arguments despite the evidence of postpartum depression that makes way more sense don’t want to think that they too could lose control of their mind. That we are all less in control than we’d like to think, that psychosis or deep depression can happen to any of us and take away much of our rational thinking. It’s a scary scary thought. And it’s easier in a way to think it’s just an evil person because then you can say it won’t/couldn’t happen to you or someone you love and you can take the easy route of saying she’s a monster.

It’s the other way around. You’re jumping to “PPD/ PPP made her homicidal!” despite her having no diagnosis of PPP/PPD by medical professionals who treated and knew her better than you, because it’s a scary scary thought that the nice white lady could plan and execute such a horrific crime. All you Lindsay fans and army of love’ers are basically just racists writing paragraphs of conjecture and word salad because you’re terrified an umc white lady could be blamed and locked away for a crime she did commit.

You have several people here saying that it is entirely possible, and more statistically likely, that she was misdiagnosed or on a path to psychosis that was not detected than that she is a stone cold psychopath. You are presenting no argument against that—just ad hominem. Weak tea.

+1 it is apparently triggering for folks that some of us think Lindsay’s documented mental illness may have escalated and played a role here. I truly don’t understand why. Yet those folks are not showing any evidence that I see that shows the contrary (evidence of prior abuse? Domestic violence in the home? Neglect?) just that she googlemapped a takeout order?? I literally did that last week for a new place I wanted my husband to pick up at. Our diagnostic system is limited. It is helpful and necessary, and has limitations. We do not have good diagnostic criteria for postpartum issues. It was obviously more than GAD or they wouldn’t have hospitalized her. That’s just not something someone ends up in patient for. She had suicidal thoughts and thoughts of harming her children. Thoughts that everyone who knew her is saying unequivocally were not aligned with how she typically is.

You feel like I’m tying myself up in knots to defend her but I feel like you are tying yourself in knots trying to convince yourself this was in cold blood with very little evidence. The prosecution was making their case that she was not safe to leave and that she committed this crime. Everyone agrees with that.

There may be projection happening for me sure, but there is for anyone who is also adamantly saying they know it was in cold blood despite a recent inpatient hospitalization for SI/HI. The jump is huge.

She self-presented at McLean stating she was afraid of hurting herself. At one point (once!) prior to Janaury, she had told her husband that she had thoughts of harming the children she resented so much. The McLean doctors did not come up with a psychosis diagnosis - in fact, the word was not uttered by Lindsay until +10 days after everything occurred... during the same conversation she told her husband she still loves him. She sounds like a master manipulator.

It feels awfully convenient where she was treated by the best doctors at multiple health systems, psychosis never came up, but now it's all, "oh, well, she could've been PPP but not yet diagnosed". It feels like a literal get out of jail free excuse to me. I will grant you, you have to be not in your right mind to do what she did, but can't you say that for anyone who commits a horrible crime? We still punish those people. Plenty of school shooters have severe mental health issues (welllllll beyond GAD), report heaving voices (Parkland shooter, for one), with horrible home lives/extenuating circumstances, but they don't walk free. Why is it different w/ Lindsay?

Why would a master manipulator say either of those things months before committing these acts? It just doesn't make sense.

And agree with PP: I'm not saying she deserves to walk free.

I have no idea why she did what she did.

One of her first things she asks when waking up in the hospital is, do I need a lawyer...so, she's too zonked to worry about the kids, but she can worry about herself? She calls PC to tell him she loves him and expresses love, but doesn't express remorse for what she's done? None of it really makes sense.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This post really describes what I was saying yesterday that deep mental illness can, at times, be harder to pick up on than many people realize
Post from Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/lindsayclancy/comments/10xh6r7/my_mom_tried_to_kill_us_both_and_no_one_knew_she/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

“My mom tried to kill us both and no one knew she was experiencing psychosis. Some perspective.

I’m withholding all judgement on this case until there are more details. Even then, this is a real family dealing with unrecoverable loss, not daytime tv.

However, I keep seeing comments claiming Lindsay couldn’t have been experiencing psychosis and that the murders must have all been premeditated acts of pure evil. Maybe that’s true, maybe it isn’t.

My mom is my best friend, my number one supporter and confidant. But when I was a teenager she almost killed us both.

My mom had always been anxious but was generally mentally stable, a loving parent, etc etc. She’s the strongest person I know and genuinely doesn’t have a mean bone in her body, she’s close with her (now adult) children, and overall just a very kind person.

Until my brother died suddenly, one of the first unfortunate cases in Canada of death due to fentanyl contamination. He wasn’t into hard drugs. No one saw it coming. My mom took it incredibly hard, but amazed everyone with the strength to keep living for me, who was a minor and still living at home.

Five months after his death, my mom suddenly seemed to be getting back to normal, as much as any mother could. She became obsessed with doing a house reno, diying all the work herself. It all looked horrible but she was so happy about her work that no one tried to stop her. She had energy again, was productive and seemed to have things under control.

Her zeal started to make me feel uncomfortable during that final week. She stayed up all night painting rooms, laying flooring. She tried to drug me with benzos so that I wouldn’t have to experience our car going over the cliff.

Even though she seemed mostly normal, she was consumed by the urge to end our lives. She was convinced that if she left me alone and alive, that I wouldn’t go to heaven with her and my brother and instead I’d be trapped in the walls of our house. Literally. She was convinced that there was an evil force in our walls and that’s why she wa doing the renovations.

Our car went off the road that day but it was harder to drive off the cliff than my mom had thought and we got stuck on the brush. She was admitted to the hospital because she tried to convince the emts and cops that they needed to drive us over the cliff because the new Sheetrock on the walls wasn’t going to hold the devil for much longer.

She didn’t sound crazy. She sounded desperate - like she was pleading for our lives. It almost had me convinced that maybe she knew something I didn’t.

Point is, psychosis isn’t always obvious. I fully believe my mom would have killed is that day because she truly believed it was our only option.

Whatever the reason for this awful event, I hope that the husband finds some way to continue on.”

I shared a similar story with my own mom a few pages back. I don't know if there are any studies of surviving children of psychotic mothers, but my feelings about what happened are similar to the reddit poster. I've felt anger and sorrow about what happened, but I can't blame my mother because she truly was not in control of her mind or actions.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
People here also seem to have a perception of psychosis that is very inaccurate. Many have probably only interacted with severe mental illness with someone on the street with a particular type of psychosis happening. Sometimes delusions are quite quiet and impossible for the person experiencing them to determine what is happening. They are completely unaware. If she had fallen deeper it may explain why she had been raising flags earlier but stopped. Frankly based on my experience it all makes sense. The mental illness got worse and she was now in a state where she couldn’t decipher between which often looks like hiding it - she likely later would have said if this didn’t happen that she doesn’t really remember this time (now she might say that too but folks will be suspicious)

Thank you for this very cogent description. Since I fully believe that you're speaking from experience, I wonder if you would be willing to expand a bit on the bolded?

Pp here. Speaking from professional experience, not personal but for example, in order for something to be a delusion a person basically has to believe in something wildly untrue (not using clinical speak here ha) despite clear evidence to the contrary. But what can often be tricky is someone with delusions (this is just an example, I have no idea if she was having delusions), can be very normal in all other scenarios until something comes up about the delusion. You can be having an incredibly normal conversation and if you avoid the particular topic where the delusion lies, you would truly never know. It’s only if you happen to engage on that particular belief that suddenly things will seem very off. And the person doesn’t realize how off it is because for them it is reality so they wouldn’t say oh hey I’m concerned about myself I need help. There isn’t self awareness at this point.

I am in no way saying this particular situation with delusions being primary is what was happening, but instead trying to share that it is far more common than people here seem to think that someone could be having very scary thoughts or thoughts not aligned with reality and it not be immediately obvious every moment (like you can still call the pharmacy). Also, more likely in her scenario someone can at some points be in a place where when they have auditory hallucinations or intrusive thoughts where they are still aware and feel separate from them and then are more likely to say hey something is going on with me I need help like she did for the initial intrusive thoughts. But in different states, people can be very unaware and it’s like the self awareness is removed so they are in a state where they believe the voices or feel almost disconnected to themselves and very unaware of themselves and what they are doing. So they wouldn’t necessarily say anything to anyone even though they aren’t intentionally hiding it. Anyway there are so many ways it can present and I just think we cannot say what was going on for her based on the fact that she could have some conversations before this happened.

That is really fascinating. It almost sounds as though you are saying that if someone had a deeply delusional belief that was the product of postpartum psychosis that developed from postpartum depression or anxiety, she might have gone through a course of illness in which she seemed outwardly "better"--less floridly depressed--while actually being much more dangerously ill. Y/N?

Yes. It’s kind of like how someone who is deeply depressed can seem better before they complete a suicide attempt. The mind is powerful and it can trick us, trick really good humans into doing things they would never do when not in that state. I have no idea of knowing what happened that day or the weeks before but I do know that mental illness and the way it presents is complex.

And folks are asserting that I don’t want to think a suburban mom could kill in cold blood, I personally think that those jumping to cold blood arguments despite the evidence of postpartum depression that makes way more sense don’t want to think that they too could lose control of their mind. That we are all less in control than we’d like to think, that psychosis or deep depression can happen to any of us and take away much of our rational thinking. It’s a scary scary thought. And it’s easier in a way to think it’s just an evil person because then you can say it won’t/couldn’t happen to you or someone you love and you can take the easy route of saying she’s a monster.

It’s the other way around. You’re jumping to “PPD/ PPP made her homicidal!” despite her having no diagnosis of PPP/PPD by medical professionals who treated and knew her better than you, because it’s a scary scary thought that the nice white lady could plan and execute such a horrific crime. All you Lindsay fans and army of love’ers are basically just racists writing paragraphs of conjecture and word salad because you’re terrified an umc white lady could be blamed and locked away for a crime she did commit.

You have several people here saying that it is entirely possible, and more statistically likely, that she was misdiagnosed or on a path to psychosis that was not detected than that she is a stone cold psychopath. You are presenting no argument against that—just ad hominem. Weak tea.

+1 it is apparently triggering for folks that some of us think Lindsay’s documented mental illness may have escalated and played a role here. I truly don’t understand why. Yet those folks are not showing any evidence that I see that shows the contrary (evidence of prior abuse? Domestic violence in the home? Neglect?) just that she googlemapped a takeout order?? I literally did that last week for a new place I wanted my husband to pick up at. Our diagnostic system is limited. It is helpful and necessary, and has limitations. We do not have good diagnostic criteria for postpartum issues. It was obviously more than GAD or they wouldn’t have hospitalized her. That’s just not something someone ends up in patient for. She had suicidal thoughts and thoughts of harming her children. Thoughts that everyone who knew her is saying unequivocally were not aligned with how she typically is.

You feel like I’m tying myself up in knots to defend her but I feel like you are tying yourself in knots trying to convince yourself this was in cold blood with very little evidence. The prosecution was making their case that she was not safe to leave and that she committed this crime. Everyone agrees with that.

There may be projection happening for me sure, but there is for anyone who is also adamantly saying they know it was in cold blood despite a recent inpatient hospitalization for SI/HI. The jump is huge.

She self-presented at McLean stating she was afraid of hurting herself. At one point (once!) prior to Janaury, she had told her husband that she had thoughts of harming the children she resented so much. The McLean doctors did not come up with a psychosis diagnosis - in fact, the word was not uttered by Lindsay until +10 days after everything occurred... during the same conversation she told her husband she still loves him. She sounds like a master manipulator.

It feels awfully convenient where she was treated by the best doctors at multiple health systems, psychosis never came up, but now it's all, "oh, well, she could've been PPP but not yet diagnosed". It feels like a literal get out of jail free excuse to me. I will grant you, you have to be not in your right mind to do what she did, but can't you say that for anyone who commits a horrible crime? We still punish those people. Plenty of school shooters have severe mental health issues (welllllll beyond GAD), report heaving voices (Parkland shooter, for one), with horrible home lives/extenuating circumstances, but they don't walk free. Why is it different w/ Lindsay?

Why would a master manipulator say either of those things months before committing these acts? It just doesn't make sense.

And agree with PP: I'm not saying she deserves to walk free.

Anonymous wrote:This post really describes what I was saying yesterday that deep mental illness can, at times, be harder to pick up on than many people realize
Post from Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/lindsayclancy/comments/10xh6r7/my_mom_tried_to_kill_us_both_and_no_one_knew_she/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

“My mom tried to kill us both and no one knew she was experiencing psychosis. Some perspective.

I’m withholding all judgement on this case until there are more details. Even then, this is a real family dealing with unrecoverable loss, not daytime tv.

However, I keep seeing comments claiming Lindsay couldn’t have been experiencing psychosis and that the murders must have all been premeditated acts of pure evil. Maybe that’s true, maybe it isn’t.

My mom is my best friend, my number one supporter and confidant. But when I was a teenager she almost killed us both.

My mom had always been anxious but was generally mentally stable, a loving parent, etc etc. She’s the strongest person I know and genuinely doesn’t have a mean bone in her body, she’s close with her (now adult) children, and overall just a very kind person.

Until my brother died suddenly, one of the first unfortunate cases in Canada of death due to fentanyl contamination. He wasn’t into hard drugs. No one saw it coming. My mom took it incredibly hard, but amazed everyone with the strength to keep living for me, who was a minor and still living at home.

Five months after his death, my mom suddenly seemed to be getting back to normal, as much as any mother could. She became obsessed with doing a house reno, diying all the work herself. It all looked horrible but she was so happy about her work that no one tried to stop her. She had energy again, was productive and seemed to have things under control.

Her zeal started to make me feel uncomfortable during that final week. She stayed up all night painting rooms, laying flooring. She tried to drug me with benzos so that I wouldn’t have to experience our car going over the cliff.

Even though she seemed mostly normal, she was consumed by the urge to end our lives. She was convinced that if she left me alone and alive, that I wouldn’t go to heaven with her and my brother and instead I’d be trapped in the walls of our house. Literally. She was convinced that there was an evil force in our walls and that’s why she wa doing the renovations.

Our car went off the road that day but it was harder to drive off the cliff than my mom had thought and we got stuck on the brush. She was admitted to the hospital because she tried to convince the emts and cops that they needed to drive us over the cliff because the new Sheetrock on the walls wasn’t going to hold the devil for much longer.

She didn’t sound crazy. She sounded desperate - like she was pleading for our lives. It almost had me convinced that maybe she knew something I didn’t.

Point is, psychosis isn’t always obvious. I fully believe my mom would have killed is that day because she truly believed it was our only option.

Whatever the reason for this awful event, I hope that the husband finds some way to continue on.”

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
People here also seem to have a perception of psychosis that is very inaccurate. Many have probably only interacted with severe mental illness with someone on the street with a particular type of psychosis happening. Sometimes delusions are quite quiet and impossible for the person experiencing them to determine what is happening. They are completely unaware. If she had fallen deeper it may explain why she had been raising flags earlier but stopped. Frankly based on my experience it all makes sense. The mental illness got worse and she was now in a state where she couldn’t decipher between which often looks like hiding it - she likely later would have said if this didn’t happen that she doesn’t really remember this time (now she might say that too but folks will be suspicious)

Thank you for this very cogent description. Since I fully believe that you're speaking from experience, I wonder if you would be willing to expand a bit on the bolded?

Pp here. Speaking from professional experience, not personal but for example, in order for something to be a delusion a person basically has to believe in something wildly untrue (not using clinical speak here ha) despite clear evidence to the contrary. But what can often be tricky is someone with delusions (this is just an example, I have no idea if she was having delusions), can be very normal in all other scenarios until something comes up about the delusion. You can be having an incredibly normal conversation and if you avoid the particular topic where the delusion lies, you would truly never know. It’s only if you happen to engage on that particular belief that suddenly things will seem very off. And the person doesn’t realize how off it is because for them it is reality so they wouldn’t say oh hey I’m concerned about myself I need help. There isn’t self awareness at this point.

I am in no way saying this particular situation with delusions being primary is what was happening, but instead trying to share that it is far more common than people here seem to think that someone could be having very scary thoughts or thoughts not aligned with reality and it not be immediately obvious every moment (like you can still call the pharmacy). Also, more likely in her scenario someone can at some points be in a place where when they have auditory hallucinations or intrusive thoughts where they are still aware and feel separate from them and then are more likely to say hey something is going on with me I need help like she did for the initial intrusive thoughts. But in different states, people can be very unaware and it’s like the self awareness is removed so they are in a state where they believe the voices or feel almost disconnected to themselves and very unaware of themselves and what they are doing. So they wouldn’t necessarily say anything to anyone even though they aren’t intentionally hiding it. Anyway there are so many ways it can present and I just think we cannot say what was going on for her based on the fact that she could have some conversations before this happened.

That is really fascinating. It almost sounds as though you are saying that if someone had a deeply delusional belief that was the product of postpartum psychosis that developed from postpartum depression or anxiety, she might have gone through a course of illness in which she seemed outwardly "better"--less floridly depressed--while actually being much more dangerously ill. Y/N?

Yes. It’s kind of like how someone who is deeply depressed can seem better before they complete a suicide attempt. The mind is powerful and it can trick us, trick really good humans into doing things they would never do when not in that state. I have no idea of knowing what happened that day or the weeks before but I do know that mental illness and the way it presents is complex.

And folks are asserting that I don’t want to think a suburban mom could kill in cold blood, I personally think that those jumping to cold blood arguments despite the evidence of postpartum depression that makes way more sense don’t want to think that they too could lose control of their mind. That we are all less in control than we’d like to think, that psychosis or deep depression can happen to any of us and take away much of our rational thinking. It’s a scary scary thought. And it’s easier in a way to think it’s just an evil person because then you can say it won’t/couldn’t happen to you or someone you love and you can take the easy route of saying she’s a monster.

It’s the other way around. You’re jumping to “PPD/ PPP made her homicidal!” despite her having no diagnosis of PPP/PPD by medical professionals who treated and knew her better than you, because it’s a scary scary thought that the nice white lady could plan and execute such a horrific crime. All you Lindsay fans and army of love’ers are basically just racists writing paragraphs of conjecture and word salad because you’re terrified an umc white lady could be blamed and locked away for a crime she did commit.

You have several people here saying that it is entirely possible, and more statistically likely, that she was misdiagnosed or on a path to psychosis that was not detected than that she is a stone cold psychopath. You are presenting no argument against that—just ad hominem. Weak tea.

+1 it is apparently triggering for folks that some of us think Lindsay’s documented mental illness may have escalated and played a role here. I truly don’t understand why. Yet those folks are not showing any evidence that I see that shows the contrary (evidence of prior abuse? Domestic violence in the home? Neglect?) just that she googlemapped a takeout order?? I literally did that last week for a new place I wanted my husband to pick up at. Our diagnostic system is limited. It is helpful and necessary, and has limitations. We do not have good diagnostic criteria for postpartum issues. It was obviously more than GAD or they wouldn’t have hospitalized her. That’s just not something someone ends up in patient for. She had suicidal thoughts and thoughts of harming her children. Thoughts that everyone who knew her is saying unequivocally were not aligned with how she typically is.

You feel like I’m tying myself up in knots to defend her but I feel like you are tying yourself in knots trying to convince yourself this was in cold blood with very little evidence. The prosecution was making their case that she was not safe to leave and that she committed this crime. Everyone agrees with that.

There may be projection happening for me sure, but there is for anyone who is also adamantly saying they know it was in cold blood despite a recent inpatient hospitalization for SI/HI. The jump is huge.

She self-presented at McLean stating she was afraid of hurting herself. At one point (once!) prior to Janaury, she had told her husband that she had thoughts of harming the children she resented so much. The McLean doctors did not come up with a psychosis diagnosis - in fact, the word was not uttered by Lindsay until +10 days after everything occurred... during the same conversation she told her husband she still loves him. She sounds like a master manipulator.

It feels awfully convenient where she was treated by the best doctors at multiple health systems, psychosis never came up, but now it's all, "oh, well, she could've been PPP but not yet diagnosed". It feels like a literal get out of jail free excuse to me. I will grant you, you have to be not in your right mind to do what she did, but can't you say that for anyone who commits a horrible crime? We still punish those people. Plenty of school shooters have severe mental health issues (welllllll beyond GAD), report heaving voices (Parkland shooter, for one), with horrible home lives/extenuating circumstances, but they don't walk free. Why is it different w/ Lindsay?

Why would a master manipulator say either of those things months before committing these acts? It just doesn't make sense.

And agree with PP: I'm not saying she deserves to walk free.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
People here also seem to have a perception of psychosis that is very inaccurate. Many have probably only interacted with severe mental illness with someone on the street with a particular type of psychosis happening. Sometimes delusions are quite quiet and impossible for the person experiencing them to determine what is happening. They are completely unaware. If she had fallen deeper it may explain why she had been raising flags earlier but stopped. Frankly based on my experience it all makes sense. The mental illness got worse and she was now in a state where she couldn’t decipher between which often looks like hiding it - she likely later would have said if this didn’t happen that she doesn’t really remember this time (now she might say that too but folks will be suspicious)

Thank you for this very cogent description. Since I fully believe that you're speaking from experience, I wonder if you would be willing to expand a bit on the bolded?

Pp here. Speaking from professional experience, not personal but for example, in order for something to be a delusion a person basically has to believe in something wildly untrue (not using clinical speak here ha) despite clear evidence to the contrary. But what can often be tricky is someone with delusions (this is just an example, I have no idea if she was having delusions), can be very normal in all other scenarios until something comes up about the delusion. You can be having an incredibly normal conversation and if you avoid the particular topic where the delusion lies, you would truly never know. It’s only if you happen to engage on that particular belief that suddenly things will seem very off. And the person doesn’t realize how off it is because for them it is reality so they wouldn’t say oh hey I’m concerned about myself I need help. There isn’t self awareness at this point.

I am in no way saying this particular situation with delusions being primary is what was happening, but instead trying to share that it is far more common than people here seem to think that someone could be having very scary thoughts or thoughts not aligned with reality and it not be immediately obvious every moment (like you can still call the pharmacy). Also, more likely in her scenario someone can at some points be in a place where when they have auditory hallucinations or intrusive thoughts where they are still aware and feel separate from them and then are more likely to say hey something is going on with me I need help like she did for the initial intrusive thoughts. But in different states, people can be very unaware and it’s like the self awareness is removed so they are in a state where they believe the voices or feel almost disconnected to themselves and very unaware of themselves and what they are doing. So they wouldn’t necessarily say anything to anyone even though they aren’t intentionally hiding it. Anyway there are so many ways it can present and I just think we cannot say what was going on for her based on the fact that she could have some conversations before this happened.

That is really fascinating. It almost sounds as though you are saying that if someone had a deeply delusional belief that was the product of postpartum psychosis that developed from postpartum depression or anxiety, she might have gone through a course of illness in which she seemed outwardly "better"--less floridly depressed--while actually being much more dangerously ill. Y/N?

Yes. It’s kind of like how someone who is deeply depressed can seem better before they complete a suicide attempt. The mind is powerful and it can trick us, trick really good humans into doing things they would never do when not in that state. I have no idea of knowing what happened that day or the weeks before but I do know that mental illness and the way it presents is complex.

And folks are asserting that I don’t want to think a suburban mom could kill in cold blood, I personally think that those jumping to cold blood arguments despite the evidence of postpartum depression that makes way more sense don’t want to think that they too could lose control of their mind. That we are all less in control than we’d like to think, that psychosis or deep depression can happen to any of us and take away much of our rational thinking. It’s a scary scary thought. And it’s easier in a way to think it’s just an evil person because then you can say it won’t/couldn’t happen to you or someone you love and you can take the easy route of saying she’s a monster.

It’s the other way around. You’re jumping to “PPD/ PPP made her homicidal!” despite her having no diagnosis of PPP/PPD by medical professionals who treated and knew her better than you, because it’s a scary scary thought that the nice white lady could plan and execute such a horrific crime. All you Lindsay fans and army of love’ers are basically just racists writing paragraphs of conjecture and word salad because you’re terrified an umc white lady could be blamed and locked away for a crime she did commit.

You have several people here saying that it is entirely possible, and more statistically likely, that she was misdiagnosed or on a path to psychosis that was not detected than that she is a stone cold psychopath. You are presenting no argument against that—just ad hominem. Weak tea.

+1 it is apparently triggering for folks that some of us think Lindsay’s documented mental illness may have escalated and played a role here. I truly don’t understand why. Yet those folks are not showing any evidence that I see that shows the contrary (evidence of prior abuse? Domestic violence in the home? Neglect?) just that she googlemapped a takeout order?? I literally did that last week for a new place I wanted my husband to pick up at. Our diagnostic system is limited. It is helpful and necessary, and has limitations. We do not have good diagnostic criteria for postpartum issues. It was obviously more than GAD or they wouldn’t have hospitalized her. That’s just not something someone ends up in patient for. She had suicidal thoughts and thoughts of harming her children. Thoughts that everyone who knew her is saying unequivocally were not aligned with how she typically is.

You feel like I’m tying myself up in knots to defend her but I feel like you are tying yourself in knots trying to convince yourself this was in cold blood with very little evidence. The prosecution was making their case that she was not safe to leave and that she committed this crime. Everyone agrees with that.

There may be projection happening for me sure, but there is for anyone who is also adamantly saying they know it was in cold blood despite a recent inpatient hospitalization for SI/HI. The jump is huge.

She self-presented at McLean stating she was afraid of hurting herself. At one point (once!) prior to Janaury, she had told her husband that she had thoughts of harming the children she resented so much. The McLean doctors did not come up with a psychosis diagnosis - in fact, the word was not uttered by Lindsay until +10 days after everything occurred... during the same conversation she told her husband she still loves him. She sounds like a master manipulator.

It feels awfully convenient where she was treated by the best doctors at multiple health systems, psychosis never came up, but now it's all, "oh, well, she could've been PPP but not yet diagnosed". It feels like a literal get out of jail free excuse to me. I will grant you, you have to be not in your right mind to do what she did, but can't you say that for anyone who commits a horrible crime? We still punish those people. Plenty of school shooters have severe mental health issues (welllllll beyond GAD), report heaving voices (Parkland shooter, for one), with horrible home lives/extenuating circumstances, but they don't walk free. Why is it different w/ Lindsay?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
People here also seem to have a perception of psychosis that is very inaccurate. Many have probably only interacted with severe mental illness with someone on the street with a particular type of psychosis happening. Sometimes delusions are quite quiet and impossible for the person experiencing them to determine what is happening. They are completely unaware. If she had fallen deeper it may explain why she had been raising flags earlier but stopped. Frankly based on my experience it all makes sense. The mental illness got worse and she was now in a state where she couldn’t decipher between which often looks like hiding it - she likely later would have said if this didn’t happen that she doesn’t really remember this time (now she might say that too but folks will be suspicious)

Thank you for this very cogent description. Since I fully believe that you're speaking from experience, I wonder if you would be willing to expand a bit on the bolded?

Pp here. Speaking from professional experience, not personal but for example, in order for something to be a delusion a person basically has to believe in something wildly untrue (not using clinical speak here ha) despite clear evidence to the contrary. But what can often be tricky is someone with delusions (this is just an example, I have no idea if she was having delusions), can be very normal in all other scenarios until something comes up about the delusion. You can be having an incredibly normal conversation and if you avoid the particular topic where the delusion lies, you would truly never know. It’s only if you happen to engage on that particular belief that suddenly things will seem very off. And the person doesn’t realize how off it is because for them it is reality so they wouldn’t say oh hey I’m concerned about myself I need help. There isn’t self awareness at this point.

I am in no way saying this particular situation with delusions being primary is what was happening, but instead trying to share that it is far more common than people here seem to think that someone could be having very scary thoughts or thoughts not aligned with reality and it not be immediately obvious every moment (like you can still call the pharmacy). Also, more likely in her scenario someone can at some points be in a place where when they have auditory hallucinations or intrusive thoughts where they are still aware and feel separate from them and then are more likely to say hey something is going on with me I need help like she did for the initial intrusive thoughts. But in different states, people can be very unaware and it’s like the self awareness is removed so they are in a state where they believe the voices or feel almost disconnected to themselves and very unaware of themselves and what they are doing. So they wouldn’t necessarily say anything to anyone even though they aren’t intentionally hiding it. Anyway there are so many ways it can present and I just think we cannot say what was going on for her based on the fact that she could have some conversations before this happened.

That is really fascinating. It almost sounds as though you are saying that if someone had a deeply delusional belief that was the product of postpartum psychosis that developed from postpartum depression or anxiety, she might have gone through a course of illness in which she seemed outwardly "better"--less floridly depressed--while actually being much more dangerously ill. Y/N?

Yes. It’s kind of like how someone who is deeply depressed can seem better before they complete a suicide attempt. The mind is powerful and it can trick us, trick really good humans into doing things they would never do when not in that state. I have no idea of knowing what happened that day or the weeks before but I do know that mental illness and the way it presents is complex.

And folks are asserting that I don’t want to think a suburban mom could kill in cold blood, I personally think that those jumping to cold blood arguments despite the evidence of postpartum depression that makes way more sense don’t want to think that they too could lose control of their mind. That we are all less in control than we’d like to think, that psychosis or deep depression can happen to any of us and take away much of our rational thinking. It’s a scary scary thought. And it’s easier in a way to think it’s just an evil person because then you can say it won’t/couldn’t happen to you or someone you love and you can take the easy route of saying she’s a monster.

It’s the other way around. You’re jumping to “PPD/ PPP made her homicidal!” despite her having no diagnosis of PPP/PPD by medical professionals who treated and knew her better than you, because it’s a scary scary thought that the nice white lady could plan and execute such a horrific crime. All you Lindsay fans and army of love’ers are basically just racists writing paragraphs of conjecture and word salad because you’re terrified an umc white lady could be blamed and locked away for a crime she did commit.

You have several people here saying that it is entirely possible, and more statistically likely, that she was misdiagnosed or on a path to psychosis that was not detected than that she is a stone cold psychopath. You are presenting no argument against that—just ad hominem. Weak tea.

+1 it is apparently triggering for folks that some of us think Lindsay’s documented mental illness may have escalated and played a role here. I truly don’t understand why. Yet those folks are not showing any evidence that I see that shows the contrary (evidence of prior abuse? Domestic violence in the home? Neglect?) just that she googlemapped a takeout order?? I literally did that last week for a new place I wanted my husband to pick up at. Our diagnostic system is limited. It is helpful and necessary, and has limitations. We do not have good diagnostic criteria for postpartum issues. It was obviously more than GAD or they wouldn’t have hospitalized her. That’s just not something someone ends up in patient for. She had suicidal thoughts and thoughts of harming her children. Thoughts that everyone who knew her is saying unequivocally were not aligned with how she typically is.

You feel like I’m tying myself up in knots to defend her but I feel like you are tying yourself in knots trying to convince yourself this was in cold blood with very little evidence. The prosecution was making their case that she was not safe to leave and that she committed this crime. Everyone agrees with that.

There may be projection happening for me sure, but there is for anyone who is also adamantly saying they know it was in cold blood despite a recent inpatient hospitalization for SI/HI. The jump is huge.

She self-presented at McLean stating she was afraid of hurting herself. At one point (once!) prior to Janaury, she had told her husband that she had thoughts of harming the children she resented so much. The McLean doctors did not come up with a psychosis diagnosis - in fact, the word was not uttered by Lindsay until +10 days after everything occurred... during the same conversation she told her husband she still loves him. She sounds like a master manipulator.

It feels awfully convenient where she was treated by the best doctors at multiple health systems, psychosis never came up, but now it's all, "oh, well, she could've been PPP but not yet diagnosed". It feels like a literal get out of jail free excuse to me. I will grant you, you have to be not in your right mind to do what she did, but can't you say that for anyone who commits a horrible crime? We still punish those people. Plenty of school shooters have severe mental health issues (welllllll beyond GAD), report heaving voices (Parkland shooter, for one), with horrible home lives/extenuating circumstances, but they don't walk free. Why is it different w/ Lindsay?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
People here also seem to have a perception of psychosis that is very inaccurate. Many have probably only interacted with severe mental illness with someone on the street with a particular type of psychosis happening. Sometimes delusions are quite quiet and impossible for the person experiencing them to determine what is happening. They are completely unaware. If she had fallen deeper it may explain why she had been raising flags earlier but stopped. Frankly based on my experience it all makes sense. The mental illness got worse and she was now in a state where she couldn’t decipher between which often looks like hiding it - she likely later would have said if this didn’t happen that she doesn’t really remember this time (now she might say that too but folks will be suspicious)

Thank you for this very cogent description. Since I fully believe that you're speaking from experience, I wonder if you would be willing to expand a bit on the bolded?

Pp here. Speaking from professional experience, not personal but for example, in order for something to be a delusion a person basically has to believe in something wildly untrue (not using clinical speak here ha) despite clear evidence to the contrary. But what can often be tricky is someone with delusions (this is just an example, I have no idea if she was having delusions), can be very normal in all other scenarios until something comes up about the delusion. You can be having an incredibly normal conversation and if you avoid the particular topic where the delusion lies, you would truly never know. It’s only if you happen to engage on that particular belief that suddenly things will seem very off. And the person doesn’t realize how off it is because for them it is reality so they wouldn’t say oh hey I’m concerned about myself I need help. There isn’t self awareness at this point.

I am in no way saying this particular situation with delusions being primary is what was happening, but instead trying to share that it is far more common than people here seem to think that someone could be having very scary thoughts or thoughts not aligned with reality and it not be immediately obvious every moment (like you can still call the pharmacy). Also, more likely in her scenario someone can at some points be in a place where when they have auditory hallucinations or intrusive thoughts where they are still aware and feel separate from them and then are more likely to say hey something is going on with me I need help like she did for the initial intrusive thoughts. But in different states, people can be very unaware and it’s like the self awareness is removed so they are in a state where they believe the voices or feel almost disconnected to themselves and very unaware of themselves and what they are doing. So they wouldn’t necessarily say anything to anyone even though they aren’t intentionally hiding it. Anyway there are so many ways it can present and I just think we cannot say what was going on for her based on the fact that she could have some conversations before this happened.

That is really fascinating. It almost sounds as though you are saying that if someone had a deeply delusional belief that was the product of postpartum psychosis that developed from postpartum depression or anxiety, she might have gone through a course of illness in which she seemed outwardly "better"--less floridly depressed--while actually being much more dangerously ill. Y/N?

Yes. It’s kind of like how someone who is deeply depressed can seem better before they complete a suicide attempt. The mind is powerful and it can trick us, trick really good humans into doing things they would never do when not in that state. I have no idea of knowing what happened that day or the weeks before but I do know that mental illness and the way it presents is complex.

And folks are asserting that I don’t want to think a suburban mom could kill in cold blood, I personally think that those jumping to cold blood arguments despite the evidence of postpartum depression that makes way more sense don’t want to think that they too could lose control of their mind. That we are all less in control than we’d like to think, that psychosis or deep depression can happen to any of us and take away much of our rational thinking. It’s a scary scary thought. And it’s easier in a way to think it’s just an evil person because then you can say it won’t/couldn’t happen to you or someone you love and you can take the easy route of saying she’s a monster.

It’s the other way around. You’re jumping to “PPD/ PPP made her homicidal!” despite her having no diagnosis of PPP/PPD by medical professionals who treated and knew her better than you, because it’s a scary scary thought that the nice white lady could plan and execute such a horrific crime. All you Lindsay fans and army of love’ers are basically just racists writing paragraphs of conjecture and word salad because you’re terrified an umc white lady could be blamed and locked away for a crime she did commit.

You have several people here saying that it is entirely possible, and more statistically likely, that she was misdiagnosed or on a path to psychosis that was not detected than that she is a stone cold psychopath. You are presenting no argument against that—just ad hominem. Weak tea.

+1 it is apparently triggering for folks that some of us think Lindsay’s documented mental illness may have escalated and played a role here. I truly don’t understand why. Yet those folks are not showing any evidence that I see that shows the contrary (evidence of prior abuse? Domestic violence in the home? Neglect?) just that she googlemapped a takeout order?? I literally did that last week for a new place I wanted my husband to pick up at. Our diagnostic system is limited. It is helpful and necessary, and has limitations. We do not have good diagnostic criteria for postpartum issues. It was obviously more than GAD or they wouldn’t have hospitalized her. That’s just not something someone ends up in patient for. She had suicidal thoughts and thoughts of harming her children. Thoughts that everyone who knew her is saying unequivocally were not aligned with how she typically is.

You feel like I’m tying myself up in knots to defend her but I feel like you are tying yourself in knots trying to convince yourself this was in cold blood with very little evidence. The prosecution was making their case that she was not safe to leave and that she committed this crime. Everyone agrees with that.

There may be projection happening for me sure, but there is for anyone who is also adamantly saying they know it was in cold blood despite a recent inpatient hospitalization for SI/HI. The jump is huge.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
People here also seem to have a perception of psychosis that is very inaccurate. Many have probably only interacted with severe mental illness with someone on the street with a particular type of psychosis happening. Sometimes delusions are quite quiet and impossible for the person experiencing them to determine what is happening. They are completely unaware. If she had fallen deeper it may explain why she had been raising flags earlier but stopped. Frankly based on my experience it all makes sense. The mental illness got worse and she was now in a state where she couldn’t decipher between which often looks like hiding it - she likely later would have said if this didn’t happen that she doesn’t really remember this time (now she might say that too but folks will be suspicious)

Thank you for this very cogent description. Since I fully believe that you're speaking from experience, I wonder if you would be willing to expand a bit on the bolded?

Pp here. Speaking from professional experience, not personal but for example, in order for something to be a delusion a person basically has to believe in something wildly untrue (not using clinical speak here ha) despite clear evidence to the contrary. But what can often be tricky is someone with delusions (this is just an example, I have no idea if she was having delusions), can be very normal in all other scenarios until something comes up about the delusion. You can be having an incredibly normal conversation and if you avoid the particular topic where the delusion lies, you would truly never know. It’s only if you happen to engage on that particular belief that suddenly things will seem very off. And the person doesn’t realize how off it is because for them it is reality so they wouldn’t say oh hey I’m concerned about myself I need help. There isn’t self awareness at this point.

I am in no way saying this particular situation with delusions being primary is what was happening, but instead trying to share that it is far more common than people here seem to think that someone could be having very scary thoughts or thoughts not aligned with reality and it not be immediately obvious every moment (like you can still call the pharmacy). Also, more likely in her scenario someone can at some points be in a place where when they have auditory hallucinations or intrusive thoughts where they are still aware and feel separate from them and then are more likely to say hey something is going on with me I need help like she did for the initial intrusive thoughts. But in different states, people can be very unaware and it’s like the self awareness is removed so they are in a state where they believe the voices or feel almost disconnected to themselves and very unaware of themselves and what they are doing. So they wouldn’t necessarily say anything to anyone even though they aren’t intentionally hiding it. Anyway there are so many ways it can present and I just think we cannot say what was going on for her based on the fact that she could have some conversations before this happened.

That is really fascinating. It almost sounds as though you are saying that if someone had a deeply delusional belief that was the product of postpartum psychosis that developed from postpartum depression or anxiety, she might have gone through a course of illness in which she seemed outwardly "better"--less floridly depressed--while actually being much more dangerously ill. Y/N?

Yes. It’s kind of like how someone who is deeply depressed can seem better before they complete a suicide attempt. The mind is powerful and it can trick us, trick really good humans into doing things they would never do when not in that state. I have no idea of knowing what happened that day or the weeks before but I do know that mental illness and the way it presents is complex.

And folks are asserting that I don’t want to think a suburban mom could kill in cold blood, I personally think that those jumping to cold blood arguments despite the evidence of postpartum depression that makes way more sense don’t want to think that they too could lose control of their mind. That we are all less in control than we’d like to think, that psychosis or deep depression can happen to any of us and take away much of our rational thinking. It’s a scary scary thought. And it’s easier in a way to think it’s just an evil person because then you can say it won’t/couldn’t happen to you or someone you love and you can take the easy route of saying she’s a monster.

It’s the other way around. You’re jumping to “PPD/ PPP made her homicidal!” despite her having no diagnosis of PPP/PPD by medical professionals who treated and knew her better than you, because it’s a scary scary thought that the nice white lady could plan and execute such a horrific crime. All you Lindsay fans and army of love’ers are basically just racists writing paragraphs of conjecture and word salad because you’re terrified an umc white lady could be blamed and locked away for a crime she did commit.

You have several people here saying that it is entirely possible, and more statistically likely, that she was misdiagnosed or on a path to psychosis that was not detected than that she is a stone cold psychopath. You are presenting no argument against that—just ad hominem. Weak tea.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
People here also seem to have a perception of psychosis that is very inaccurate. Many have probably only interacted with severe mental illness with someone on the street with a particular type of psychosis happening. Sometimes delusions are quite quiet and impossible for the person experiencing them to determine what is happening. They are completely unaware. If she had fallen deeper it may explain why she had been raising flags earlier but stopped. Frankly based on my experience it all makes sense. The mental illness got worse and she was now in a state where she couldn’t decipher between which often looks like hiding it - she likely later would have said if this didn’t happen that she doesn’t really remember this time (now she might say that too but folks will be suspicious)

Thank you for this very cogent description. Since I fully believe that you're speaking from experience, I wonder if you would be willing to expand a bit on the bolded?

Pp here. Speaking from professional experience, not personal but for example, in order for something to be a delusion a person basically has to believe in something wildly untrue (not using clinical speak here ha) despite clear evidence to the contrary. But what can often be tricky is someone with delusions (this is just an example, I have no idea if she was having delusions), can be very normal in all other scenarios until something comes up about the delusion. You can be having an incredibly normal conversation and if you avoid the particular topic where the delusion lies, you would truly never know. It’s only if you happen to engage on that particular belief that suddenly things will seem very off. And the person doesn’t realize how off it is because for them it is reality so they wouldn’t say oh hey I’m concerned about myself I need help. There isn’t self awareness at this point.

I am in no way saying this particular situation with delusions being primary is what was happening, but instead trying to share that it is far more common than people here seem to think that someone could be having very scary thoughts or thoughts not aligned with reality and it not be immediately obvious every moment (like you can still call the pharmacy). Also, more likely in her scenario someone can at some points be in a place where when they have auditory hallucinations or intrusive thoughts where they are still aware and feel separate from them and then are more likely to say hey something is going on with me I need help like she did for the initial intrusive thoughts. But in different states, people can be very unaware and it’s like the self awareness is removed so they are in a state where they believe the voices or feel almost disconnected to themselves and very unaware of themselves and what they are doing. So they wouldn’t necessarily say anything to anyone even though they aren’t intentionally hiding it. Anyway there are so many ways it can present and I just think we cannot say what was going on for her based on the fact that she could have some conversations before this happened.

That is really fascinating. It almost sounds as though you are saying that if someone had a deeply delusional belief that was the product of postpartum psychosis that developed from postpartum depression or anxiety, she might have gone through a course of illness in which she seemed outwardly "better"--less floridly depressed--while actually being much more dangerously ill. Y/N?

Yes. It’s kind of like how someone who is deeply depressed can seem better before they complete a suicide attempt. The mind is powerful and it can trick us, trick really good humans into doing things they would never do when not in that state. I have no idea of knowing what happened that day or the weeks before but I do know that mental illness and the way it presents is complex.

And folks are asserting that I don’t want to think a suburban mom could kill in cold blood, I personally think that those jumping to cold blood arguments despite the evidence of postpartum depression that makes way more sense don’t want to think that they too could lose control of their mind. That we are all less in control than we’d like to think, that psychosis or deep depression can happen to any of us and take away much of our rational thinking. It’s a scary scary thought. And it’s easier in a way to think it’s just an evil person because then you can say it won’t/couldn’t happen to you or someone you love and you can take the easy route of saying she’s a monster.

It’s the other way around. You’re jumping to “PPD/ PPP made her homicidal!” despite her having no diagnosis of PPP/PPD by medical professionals who treated and knew her better than you, because it’s a scary scary thought that the nice white lady could plan and execute such a horrific crime. All you Lindsay fans and army of love’ers are basically just racists writing paragraphs of conjecture and word salad because you’re terrified an umc white lady could be blamed and locked away for a crime she did commit.

You have several people here saying that it is entirely possible, and more statistically likely, that she was misdiagnosed or on a path to psychosis that was not detected than that she is a stone cold psychopath. You are presenting no argument against that—just ad hominem. Weak tea.

None of the several people here, including you, know her or her situation personally to be able to say a misdiagnosis or psychosis is more likely. The facts are she killed her children specifically during the time she asked her husband to get takeout, and then strangled the kids one by one. She jumped out of the window, which looks like a suicide attempt, but it was only 2 stories and as expected, she didn’t die.

In the face of facts, you stans sound irrrational, over emotional, and unusually invested in defending her and the question is why? Projection and bias is a plausible answer.