Andrea Yates' husband says paralyzed midwife mom with post partum shouldn't be prosecuted

The ex-husband of Andrea Yates, the mother who drowned her five children in a bathtub in 2001 while battling postpartum , is speaking out again 22 years after their deaths to call for prosecutors to drop charges against Lindsay Clancy, who is now facing charges for killing her three kids.

Andrea drowned the five children she shared with Russell 'Rusty' Yates in Houston in 2001. She was battling postpartum depression, postpartum psychosis and schizophrenia. She was convicted of five counts of capital murder and sentenced to life in prison, but the verdict was overturned in 2006, when she was found not guilty by reason of insanity.

For the last 16 years, she has been receiving care in a mental hospital, and declines eligibility for release every year.

Russell - who divorced Andrea in 2015 but always said he had forgiven her, appeared on Chris Cuomo's NewsNation show as Lindsay Clancy, 32,

He has long maintained that his wife's criminal trial was the 'cruelest thing he had ever witnessed.’

He says women who suffer with postpartum depression should not face criminal prosecution, because it's a sickness.

'If I were driving our Suburban down the street and had a heart attack and swerved into oncoming traffic and everyone in the car died but me, would they prosecute me for capital murder and rub my face in crime scene photos? Of my children?

'I don't think so. But to me, it's 100% exactly the same.'

Yates went on to explain how the psychosis had been explained to him by psychiatrists.

'It's much like having a dream or nightmare overlaid on reality so that a person sees things that aren't real, hears voices that aren't real, believes things to be true that aren't true and they act on that.

'It's every bit a part of their reality as everything else - they can't distinguish between those thoughts and images and voices and anything else,' he said, explaining the psychosis that overtook his wife.

'Andrea was a wonderful mother. When someone acts so out of character like that it's a flag that something else is going on. As far as forgiveness goes, it's kind of the start.

'If something is completely out of character, this can't be right.

'At the time, I did not know that she’d been psychotic, I did not know what psychosis even was or what the symptoms were.'

He also rejected the idea that husbands or partners can protect their children from harm, saying: 'You can do all you can but you really can't protect yourself from a psychotic person at home.

'They can get up in the middle of the night and light the house on fire or poison everyone.

'The next step of forgiveness (for other people), I’d say, is understanding it’s a sickness, that but for her sickness, she would never, ever, ever would have harmed our children.'

Andrea was found guilty of capital murder and was sentenced to life with the possibility of parole following the 2001 deaths of her children.

That verdict was overturned following appeals from her lawyers and at a new trial in 2006, she was found not guilty of murder by reason of insanity.

The following year, she was sent to the Kerrville State Hospital. She has remained there ever since.

Every year, she is eligible for review to determine whether she should be released.

She waives that review annually, choosing instead to stay in treatment.

In 2015, she and Rusty finalized their divorce. Her only conditions were that she be given the right to be buried near her children, and that she receive a nursing chair she used when the kids were alive and young.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
People here also seem to have a perception of psychosis that is very inaccurate. Many have probably only interacted with severe mental illness with someone on the street with a particular type of psychosis happening. Sometimes delusions are quite quiet and impossible for the person experiencing them to determine what is happening. They are completely unaware. If she had fallen deeper it may explain why she had been raising flags earlier but stopped. Frankly based on my experience it all makes sense. The mental illness got worse and she was now in a state where she couldn’t decipher between which often looks like hiding it - she likely later would have said if this didn’t happen that she doesn’t really remember this time (now she might say that too but folks will be suspicious)

Thank you for this very cogent description. Since I fully believe that you're speaking from experience, I wonder if you would be willing to expand a bit on the bolded?

Pp here. Speaking from professional experience, not personal but for example, in order for something to be a delusion a person basically has to believe in something wildly untrue (not using clinical speak here ha) despite clear evidence to the contrary. But what can often be tricky is someone with delusions (this is just an example, I have no idea if she was having delusions), can be very normal in all other scenarios until something comes up about the delusion. You can be having an incredibly normal conversation and if you avoid the particular topic where the delusion lies, you would truly never know. It’s only if you happen to engage on that particular belief that suddenly things will seem very off. And the person doesn’t realize how off it is because for them it is reality so they wouldn’t say oh hey I’m concerned about myself I need help. There isn’t self awareness at this point.

I am in no way saying this particular situation with delusions being primary is what was happening, but instead trying to share that it is far more common than people here seem to think that someone could be having very scary thoughts or thoughts not aligned with reality and it not be immediately obvious every moment (like you can still call the pharmacy). Also, more likely in her scenario someone can at some points be in a place where when they have auditory hallucinations or intrusive thoughts where they are still aware and feel separate from them and then are more likely to say hey something is going on with me I need help like she did for the initial intrusive thoughts. But in different states, people can be very unaware and it’s like the self awareness is removed so they are in a state where they believe the voices or feel almost disconnected to themselves and very unaware of themselves and what they are doing. So they wouldn’t necessarily say anything to anyone even though they aren’t intentionally hiding it. Anyway there are so many ways it can present and I just think we cannot say what was going on for her based on the fact that she could have some conversations before this happened.

That is really fascinating. It almost sounds as though you are saying that if someone had a deeply delusional belief that was the product of postpartum psychosis that developed from postpartum depression or anxiety, she might have gone through a course of illness in which she seemed outwardly "better"--less floridly depressed--while actually being much more dangerously ill. Y/N?

Yes. It’s kind of like how someone who is deeply depressed can seem better before they complete a suicide attempt. The mind is powerful and it can trick us, trick really good humans into doing things they would never do when not in that state. I have no idea of knowing what happened that day or the weeks before but I do know that mental illness and the way it presents is complex.

And folks are asserting that I don’t want to think a suburban mom could kill in cold blood, I personally think that those jumping to cold blood arguments despite the evidence of postpartum depression that makes way more sense don’t want to think that they too could lose control of their mind. That we are all less in control than we’d like to think, that psychosis or deep depression can happen to any of us and take away much of our rational thinking. It’s a scary scary thought. And it’s easier in a way to think it’s just an evil person because then you can say it won’t/couldn’t happen to you or someone you love and you can take the easy route of saying she’s a monster.

It’s the other way around. You’re jumping to “PPD/ PPP made her homicidal!” despite her having no diagnosis of PPP/PPD by medical professionals who treated and knew her better than you, because it’s a scary scary thought that the nice white lady could plan and execute such a horrific crime. All you Lindsay fans and army of love’ers are basically just racists writing paragraphs of conjecture and word salad because you’re terrified an umc white lady could be blamed and locked away for a crime she did commit.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My friend had a post partum nervous breakdown at six months after weeks of insomnia triggered by baby sleep struggles. She tried to go on fmla but her boss forced her to quit instead with threatening action letters because she said she had ‘already taken too much maternity leave.’ This is the society we live in that tells moms they are too big a burden until some moms say ok i get it, I’m worthless, I will just kill my kids and myself. Which of you who are so disgusted or outraged at her has founght for universal maternity leave? Which of you has lobbied for safe affordable subsidized daycare? Or adequate (first world) maternal medical care? You are the disgusting ones, desperate to see a public lynching while this very minute there is an exhausted mom in the verge of crisis with no one to turn to. You are handmaid’s tale characters. Your righteousness is blasphemy.

This is dumb. You sleep train. Put the baby to bed at 7 and go back in at 6. That’s all it takes.

That’s why it’s hard for a manager to have empathy for a woman who is voluntarily getting up for a six month old baby.

Yeah I wonder if this plays a role in PPD too. I had a subordinate who was constantly complaining of complete exhaustion but was getting up 3, 4, 5, times a night with a 9+ month old baby (after taking 6 months of maternity leave) because she and her husband didn't let the baby cry, ever, for even a second, for any reason. The baby had never fallen asleep on his own in his entire life. I mentioned to her that we had sleep-trained our kids and they slept 12 hours a night at her baby's age (younger actually) and she looked at me like I was some sort of child abuser. The baby is now over 2 and I still don't think he sleeps well at all and she's still sort of a zombie.

I had 2 babies who were STTN 7-7 by about 4 months old (minus the occasional regression) with very little effort to sleep train. And then my third baby humbled me and had only STTN a handful of times by 9 months. Her room was right next to the older kids’ rooms so I couldn’t leave her to cry loudly for extended periods without waking them (which would then extend the time of getting everyone back to bed). And every time we found a long weekend or some break where we thought we could try some form of sleep training, the baby would get sick and we didn’t have the heart to let a sick baby cry. Our nanny even tried to help us get her on a better sleep schedule, but it took a full year to get some semblance of normal sleep.

Only in America would blame a mom of an infant for being tired because she should just be shutting her young child in a room for 11 hours and ignore their crying, so that she can prioritize work instead. We are a stand out this way in the industrialized world, caring more about workplace productivity than caregiving for babies.

Seriously? Tell me what they do in Italy. Sweden? Syria? Kenya? Peru? You don’t really mean to argue that there is a strict procedure that all new parents in those countries use to help young mothers get their babies to sleep that we, because we are Americans, refuse to use here. Babies cry and parents suffer in all countries. Babies die by their mothers’ hands in all countries. Stop blaming horrible things that are a dark part of the human condition on policy. It’s not always policy. This woman had all the leave, medical support, and family support that one could hope for. You’re seriously telling me that she would’ve been better off in any other country? She was sick. Sicker they she probably even knew. She was trying. Her family was trying. Mistakes were made. But it is not because of America’s policies. Sh!1t happens. In this case. it happened to an affluent white woman so you can’t blame America.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She was active on several FB groups and the screenshots have been shared around (you can search for them) - one was for Attachment Parenting where she apparently complained a ton about her 3 year old and called him the most difficult person she had ever met or something like that. She was also apparently actively on a Pelaton group for pregant and post partum moms. Its all just so fascinating and bizarre.

When I saw some of those screen shots I saw a woman who had A LOT of anxiety. She was in a ton of parenting groups and they were the more intensive kind of parenting - attachment parenting and “crunchy mom” type groups. Anti sleep training, pro nursing for at least 1-2 years, cloth diapering, delay solid foods, that kind of thing. It’s a ridiculously high standard. And, dirty secret, no one there is meeting it anyway, they’re a bunch of liars and fakes and 22 year olds on baby daddy #2 with 3 kids living in a trailer in Tennessee. But it seemed like Lindsay was so deep in her own anxiety that she didn’t even realize it. She still ultimately bears responsibility for herself and she isn’t going to walk away free nor should she. But the anxiety in her posts was so evident. She was incredibly high strung and probably difficult to be around.

Anonymous wrote:She was active on several FB groups and the screenshots have been shared around (you can search for them) - one was for Attachment Parenting where she apparently complained a ton about her 3 year old and called him the most difficult person she had ever met or something like that. She was also apparently actively on a Pelaton group for pregant and post partum moms. Its all just so fascinating and bizarre.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did anyone else watch the arraignment? I don’t think she planned this. If she was planning to kill her kids, why did she take them to the pediatrician that morning? Why was she calling around to different pharmacies looking for the right kind of pedialax for her kids and then sending her husband to go get it? It just makes no sense.

Gosh this is sad. I wish I hadn’t watched it.

Could’ve been that she was at peace with her decision and that caused her to act normally.

Pp here. I get that but still….why bother calling around to pharmacies for the right kind of miralax for your child and then sending your husband to go get it if you know you’ve decided to kill them?

It would make more sense if she had just done nothing but she was carrying on as if her kids were gonna be needing medicine that evening.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
People here also seem to have a perception of psychosis that is very inaccurate. Many have probably only interacted with severe mental illness with someone on the street with a particular type of psychosis happening. Sometimes delusions are quite quiet and impossible for the person experiencing them to determine what is happening. They are completely unaware. If she had fallen deeper it may explain why she had been raising flags earlier but stopped. Frankly based on my experience it all makes sense. The mental illness got worse and she was now in a state where she couldn’t decipher between which often looks like hiding it - she likely later would have said if this didn’t happen that she doesn’t really remember this time (now she might say that too but folks will be suspicious)

Thank you for this very cogent description. Since I fully believe that you're speaking from experience, I wonder if you would be willing to expand a bit on the bolded?

Pp here. Speaking from professional experience, not personal but for example, in order for something to be a delusion a person basically has to believe in something wildly untrue (not using clinical speak here ha) despite clear evidence to the contrary. But what can often be tricky is someone with delusions (this is just an example, I have no idea if she was having delusions), can be very normal in all other scenarios until something comes up about the delusion. You can be having an incredibly normal conversation and if you avoid the particular topic where the delusion lies, you would truly never know. It’s only if you happen to engage on that particular belief that suddenly things will seem very off. And the person doesn’t realize how off it is because for them it is reality so they wouldn’t say oh hey I’m concerned about myself I need help. There isn’t self awareness at this point.

I am in no way saying this particular situation with delusions being primary is what was happening, but instead trying to share that it is far more common than people here seem to think that someone could be having very scary thoughts or thoughts not aligned with reality and it not be immediately obvious every moment (like you can still call the pharmacy). Also, more likely in her scenario someone can at some points be in a place where when they have auditory hallucinations or intrusive thoughts where they are still aware and feel separate from them and then are more likely to say hey something is going on with me I need help like she did for the initial intrusive thoughts. But in different states, people can be very unaware and it’s like the self awareness is removed so they are in a state where they believe the voices or feel almost disconnected to themselves and very unaware of themselves and what they are doing. So they wouldn’t necessarily say anything to anyone even though they aren’t intentionally hiding it. Anyway there are so many ways it can present and I just think we cannot say what was going on for her based on the fact that she could have some conversations before this happened.

That is really fascinating. It almost sounds as though you are saying that if someone had a deeply delusional belief that was the product of postpartum psychosis that developed from postpartum depression or anxiety, she might have gone through a course of illness in which she seemed outwardly "better"--less floridly depressed--while actually being much more dangerously ill. Y/N?

Yes. It’s kind of like how someone who is deeply depressed can seem better before they complete a suicide attempt. The mind is powerful and it can trick us, trick really good humans into doing things they would never do when not in that state. I have no idea of knowing what happened that day or the weeks before but I do know that mental illness and the way it presents is complex.

And folks are asserting that I don’t want to think a suburban mom could kill in cold blood, I personally think that those jumping to cold blood arguments despite the evidence of postpartum depression that makes way more sense don’t want to think that they too could lose control of their mind. That we are all less in control than we’d like to think, that psychosis or deep depression can happen to any of us and take away much of our rational thinking. It’s a scary scary thought. And it’s easier in a way to think it’s just an evil person because then you can say it won’t/couldn’t happen to you or someone you love and you can take the easy route of saying she’s a monster.

It’s the other way around. You’re jumping to “PPD/ PPP made her homicidal!” despite her having no diagnosis of PPP/PPD by medical professionals who treated and knew her better than you, because it’s a scary scary thought that the nice white lady could plan and execute such a horrific crime. All you Lindsay fans and army of love’ers are basically just racists writing paragraphs of conjecture and word salad because you’re terrified an umc white lady could be blamed and locked away for a crime she did commit.

You think she planned to kill them, fake her suicide, and claim insanity and just go free? That’s not how it works she’s locked up for life either way- psych ward or prison. No US woman who has murdered their children has been released. That’s very poor planning on her part. There are easier ways to get into a psych ward.

Plus even if she had no formal diagnosis, she signed herself up for both outpatient and then later inpatient care. Was that all part of her master plan too?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
People here also seem to have a perception of psychosis that is very inaccurate. Many have probably only interacted with severe mental illness with someone on the street with a particular type of psychosis happening. Sometimes delusions are quite quiet and impossible for the person experiencing them to determine what is happening. They are completely unaware. If she had fallen deeper it may explain why she had been raising flags earlier but stopped. Frankly based on my experience it all makes sense. The mental illness got worse and she was now in a state where she couldn’t decipher between which often looks like hiding it - she likely later would have said if this didn’t happen that she doesn’t really remember this time (now she might say that too but folks will be suspicious)

Thank you for this very cogent description. Since I fully believe that you're speaking from experience, I wonder if you would be willing to expand a bit on the bolded?

Pp here. Speaking from professional experience, not personal but for example, in order for something to be a delusion a person basically has to believe in something wildly untrue (not using clinical speak here ha) despite clear evidence to the contrary. But what can often be tricky is someone with delusions (this is just an example, I have no idea if she was having delusions), can be very normal in all other scenarios until something comes up about the delusion. You can be having an incredibly normal conversation and if you avoid the particular topic where the delusion lies, you would truly never know. It’s only if you happen to engage on that particular belief that suddenly things will seem very off. And the person doesn’t realize how off it is because for them it is reality so they wouldn’t say oh hey I’m concerned about myself I need help. There isn’t self awareness at this point.

I am in no way saying this particular situation with delusions being primary is what was happening, but instead trying to share that it is far more common than people here seem to think that someone could be having very scary thoughts or thoughts not aligned with reality and it not be immediately obvious every moment (like you can still call the pharmacy). Also, more likely in her scenario someone can at some points be in a place where when they have auditory hallucinations or intrusive thoughts where they are still aware and feel separate from them and then are more likely to say hey something is going on with me I need help like she did for the initial intrusive thoughts. But in different states, people can be very unaware and it’s like the self awareness is removed so they are in a state where they believe the voices or feel almost disconnected to themselves and very unaware of themselves and what they are doing. So they wouldn’t necessarily say anything to anyone even though they aren’t intentionally hiding it. Anyway there are so many ways it can present and I just think we cannot say what was going on for her based on the fact that she could have some conversations before this happened.

That is really fascinating. It almost sounds as though you are saying that if someone had a deeply delusional belief that was the product of postpartum psychosis that developed from postpartum depression or anxiety, she might have gone through a course of illness in which she seemed outwardly "better"--less floridly depressed--while actually being much more dangerously ill. Y/N?

Yes. It’s kind of like how someone who is deeply depressed can seem better before they complete a suicide attempt. The mind is powerful and it can trick us, trick really good humans into doing things they would never do when not in that state. I have no idea of knowing what happened that day or the weeks before but I do know that mental illness and the way it presents is complex.

And folks are asserting that I don’t want to think a suburban mom could kill in cold blood, I personally think that those jumping to cold blood arguments despite the evidence of postpartum depression that makes way more sense don’t want to think that they too could lose control of their mind. That we are all less in control than we’d like to think, that psychosis or deep depression can happen to any of us and take away much of our rational thinking. It’s a scary scary thought. And it’s easier in a way to think it’s just an evil person because then you can say it won’t/couldn’t happen to you or someone you love and you can take the easy route of saying she’s a monster.

It’s the other way around. You’re jumping to “PPD/ PPP made her homicidal!” despite her having no diagnosis of PPP/PPD by medical professionals who treated and knew her better than you, because it’s a scary scary thought that the nice white lady could plan and execute such a horrific crime. All you Lindsay fans and army of love’ers are basically just racists writing paragraphs of conjecture and word salad because you’re terrified an umc white lady could be blamed and locked away for a crime she did commit.

You have several people here saying that it is entirely possible, and more statistically likely, that she was misdiagnosed or on a path to psychosis that was not detected than that she is a stone cold psychopath. You are presenting no argument against that—just ad hominem. Weak tea.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did anyone else watch the arraignment? I don’t think she planned this. If she was planning to kill her kids, why did she take them to the pediatrician that morning? Why was she calling around to different pharmacies looking for the right kind of pedialax for her kids and then sending her husband to go get it? It just makes no sense.

Gosh this is sad. I wish I hadn’t watched it.

Could’ve been that she was at peace with her decision and that caused her to act normally.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
People here also seem to have a perception of psychosis that is very inaccurate. Many have probably only interacted with severe mental illness with someone on the street with a particular type of psychosis happening. Sometimes delusions are quite quiet and impossible for the person experiencing them to determine what is happening. They are completely unaware. If she had fallen deeper it may explain why she had been raising flags earlier but stopped. Frankly based on my experience it all makes sense. The mental illness got worse and she was now in a state where she couldn’t decipher between which often looks like hiding it - she likely later would have said if this didn’t happen that she doesn’t really remember this time (now she might say that too but folks will be suspicious)

Thank you for this very cogent description. Since I fully believe that you're speaking from experience, I wonder if you would be willing to expand a bit on the bolded?

Pp here. Speaking from professional experience, not personal but for example, in order for something to be a delusion a person basically has to believe in something wildly untrue (not using clinical speak here ha) despite clear evidence to the contrary. But what can often be tricky is someone with delusions (this is just an example, I have no idea if she was having delusions), can be very normal in all other scenarios until something comes up about the delusion. You can be having an incredibly normal conversation and if you avoid the particular topic where the delusion lies, you would truly never know. It’s only if you happen to engage on that particular belief that suddenly things will seem very off. And the person doesn’t realize how off it is because for them it is reality so they wouldn’t say oh hey I’m concerned about myself I need help. There isn’t self awareness at this point.

I am in no way saying this particular situation with delusions being primary is what was happening, but instead trying to share that it is far more common than people here seem to think that someone could be having very scary thoughts or thoughts not aligned with reality and it not be immediately obvious every moment (like you can still call the pharmacy). Also, more likely in her scenario someone can at some points be in a place where when they have auditory hallucinations or intrusive thoughts where they are still aware and feel separate from them and then are more likely to say hey something is going on with me I need help like she did for the initial intrusive thoughts. But in different states, people can be very unaware and it’s like the self awareness is removed so they are in a state where they believe the voices or feel almost disconnected to themselves and very unaware of themselves and what they are doing. So they wouldn’t necessarily say anything to anyone even though they aren’t intentionally hiding it. Anyway there are so many ways it can present and I just think we cannot say what was going on for her based on the fact that she could have some conversations before this happened.

That is really fascinating. It almost sounds as though you are saying that if someone had a deeply delusional belief that was the product of postpartum psychosis that developed from postpartum depression or anxiety, she might have gone through a course of illness in which she seemed outwardly "better"--less floridly depressed--while actually being much more dangerously ill. Y/N?

Yes. It’s kind of like how someone who is deeply depressed can seem better before they complete a suicide attempt. The mind is powerful and it can trick us, trick really good humans into doing things they would never do when not in that state. I have no idea of knowing what happened that day or the weeks before but I do know that mental illness and the way it presents is complex.

And folks are asserting that I don’t want to think a suburban mom could kill in cold blood, I personally think that those jumping to cold blood arguments despite the evidence of postpartum depression that makes way more sense don’t want to think that they too could lose control of their mind. That we are all less in control than we’d like to think, that psychosis or deep depression can happen to any of us and take away much of our rational thinking. It’s a scary scary thought. And it’s easier in a way to think it’s just an evil person because then you can say it won’t/couldn’t happen to you or someone you love and you can take the easy route of saying she’s a monster.

It’s the other way around. You’re jumping to “PPD/ PPP made her homicidal!” despite her having no diagnosis of PPP/PPD by medical professionals who treated and knew her better than you, because it’s a scary scary thought that the nice white lady could plan and execute such a horrific crime. All you Lindsay fans and army of love’ers are basically just racists writing paragraphs of conjecture and word salad because you’re terrified an umc white lady could be blamed and locked away for a crime she did commit.

You think she planned to kill them, fake her suicide, and claim insanity and just go free? That’s not how it works she’s locked up for life either way- psych ward or prison. No US woman who has murdered their children has been released. That’s very poor planning on her part. There are easier ways to get into a psych ward.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
People here also seem to have a perception of psychosis that is very inaccurate. Many have probably only interacted with severe mental illness with someone on the street with a particular type of psychosis happening. Sometimes delusions are quite quiet and impossible for the person experiencing them to determine what is happening. They are completely unaware. If she had fallen deeper it may explain why she had been raising flags earlier but stopped. Frankly based on my experience it all makes sense. The mental illness got worse and she was now in a state where she couldn’t decipher between which often looks like hiding it - she likely later would have said if this didn’t happen that she doesn’t really remember this time (now she might say that too but folks will be suspicious)

Thank you for this very cogent description. Since I fully believe that you're speaking from experience, I wonder if you would be willing to expand a bit on the bolded?

Pp here. Speaking from professional experience, not personal but for example, in order for something to be a delusion a person basically has to believe in something wildly untrue (not using clinical speak here ha) despite clear evidence to the contrary. But what can often be tricky is someone with delusions (this is just an example, I have no idea if she was having delusions), can be very normal in all other scenarios until something comes up about the delusion. You can be having an incredibly normal conversation and if you avoid the particular topic where the delusion lies, you would truly never know. It’s only if you happen to engage on that particular belief that suddenly things will seem very off. And the person doesn’t realize how off it is because for them it is reality so they wouldn’t say oh hey I’m concerned about myself I need help. There isn’t self awareness at this point.

I am in no way saying this particular situation with delusions being primary is what was happening, but instead trying to share that it is far more common than people here seem to think that someone could be having very scary thoughts or thoughts not aligned with reality and it not be immediately obvious every moment (like you can still call the pharmacy). Also, more likely in her scenario someone can at some points be in a place where when they have auditory hallucinations or intrusive thoughts where they are still aware and feel separate from them and then are more likely to say hey something is going on with me I need help like she did for the initial intrusive thoughts. But in different states, people can be very unaware and it’s like the self awareness is removed so they are in a state where they believe the voices or feel almost disconnected to themselves and very unaware of themselves and what they are doing. So they wouldn’t necessarily say anything to anyone even though they aren’t intentionally hiding it. Anyway there are so many ways it can present and I just think we cannot say what was going on for her based on the fact that she could have some conversations before this happened.

That is really fascinating. It almost sounds as though you are saying that if someone had a deeply delusional belief that was the product of postpartum psychosis that developed from postpartum depression or anxiety, she might have gone through a course of illness in which she seemed outwardly "better"--less floridly depressed--while actually being much more dangerously ill. Y/N?

Yes. It’s kind of like how someone who is deeply depressed can seem better before they complete a suicide attempt. The mind is powerful and it can trick us, trick really good humans into doing things they would never do when not in that state. I have no idea of knowing what happened that day or the weeks before but I do know that mental illness and the way it presents is complex.

And folks are asserting that I don’t want to think a suburban mom could kill in cold blood, I personally think that those jumping to cold blood arguments despite the evidence of postpartum depression that makes way more sense don’t want to think that they too could lose control of their mind. That we are all less in control than we’d like to think, that psychosis or deep depression can happen to any of us and take away much of our rational thinking. It’s a scary scary thought. And it’s easier in a way to think it’s just an evil person because then you can say it won’t/couldn’t happen to you or someone you love and you can take the easy route of saying she’s a monster.

It’s the other way around. You’re jumping to “PPD/ PPP made her homicidal!” despite her having no diagnosis of PPP/PPD by medical professionals who treated and knew her better than you, because it’s a scary scary thought that the nice white lady could plan and execute such a horrific crime. All you Lindsay fans and army of love’ers are basically just racists writing paragraphs of conjecture and word salad because you’re terrified an umc white lady could be blamed and locked away for a crime she did commit.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did anyone else watch the arraignment? I don’t think she planned this. If she was planning to kill her kids, why did she take them to the pediatrician that morning? Why was she calling around to different pharmacies looking for the right kind of pedialax for her kids and then sending her husband to go get it? It just makes no sense.

Gosh this is sad. I wish I hadn’t watched it.

I watched. It was very sad. I don’t know what to make of it. I just can’t get past how she killed them and how much effort and time it would have taken.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
People here also seem to have a perception of psychosis that is very inaccurate. Many have probably only interacted with severe mental illness with someone on the street with a particular type of psychosis happening. Sometimes delusions are quite quiet and impossible for the person experiencing them to determine what is happening. They are completely unaware. If she had fallen deeper it may explain why she had been raising flags earlier but stopped. Frankly based on my experience it all makes sense. The mental illness got worse and she was now in a state where she couldn’t decipher between which often looks like hiding it - she likely later would have said if this didn’t happen that she doesn’t really remember this time (now she might say that too but folks will be suspicious)

Thank you for this very cogent description. Since I fully believe that you're speaking from experience, I wonder if you would be willing to expand a bit on the bolded?

Pp here. Speaking from professional experience, not personal but for example, in order for something to be a delusion a person basically has to believe in something wildly untrue (not using clinical speak here ha) despite clear evidence to the contrary. But what can often be tricky is someone with delusions (this is just an example, I have no idea if she was having delusions), can be very normal in all other scenarios until something comes up about the delusion. You can be having an incredibly normal conversation and if you avoid the particular topic where the delusion lies, you would truly never know. It’s only if you happen to engage on that particular belief that suddenly things will seem very off. And the person doesn’t realize how off it is because for them it is reality so they wouldn’t say oh hey I’m concerned about myself I need help. There isn’t self awareness at this point.

I am in no way saying this particular situation with delusions being primary is what was happening, but instead trying to share that it is far more common than people here seem to think that someone could be having very scary thoughts or thoughts not aligned with reality and it not be immediately obvious every moment (like you can still call the pharmacy). Also, more likely in her scenario someone can at some points be in a place where when they have auditory hallucinations or intrusive thoughts where they are still aware and feel separate from them and then are more likely to say hey something is going on with me I need help like she did for the initial intrusive thoughts. But in different states, people can be very unaware and it’s like the self awareness is removed so they are in a state where they believe the voices or feel almost disconnected to themselves and very unaware of themselves and what they are doing. So they wouldn’t necessarily say anything to anyone even though they aren’t intentionally hiding it. Anyway there are so many ways it can present and I just think we cannot say what was going on for her based on the fact that she could have some conversations before this happened.

That is really fascinating. It almost sounds as though you are saying that if someone had a deeply delusional belief that was the product of postpartum psychosis that developed from postpartum depression or anxiety, she might have gone through a course of illness in which she seemed outwardly "better"--less floridly depressed--while actually being much more dangerously ill. Y/N?

Yes. It’s kind of like how someone who is deeply depressed can seem better before they complete a suicide attempt. The mind is powerful and it can trick us, trick really good humans into doing things they would never do when not in that state. I have no idea of knowing what happened that day or the weeks before but I do know that mental illness and the way it presents is complex.

And folks are asserting that I don’t want to think a suburban mom could kill in cold blood, I personally think that those jumping to cold blood arguments despite the evidence of postpartum depression that makes way more sense don’t want to think that they too could lose control of their mind. That we are all less in control than we’d like to think, that psychosis or deep depression can happen to any of us and take away much of our rational thinking. It’s a scary scary thought. And it’s easier in a way to think it’s just an evil person because then you can say it won’t/couldn’t happen to you or someone you love and you can take the easy route of saying she’s a monster.

It’s the other way around. You’re jumping to “PPD/ PPP made her homicidal!” despite her having no diagnosis of PPP/PPD by medical professionals who treated and knew her better than you, because it’s a scary scary thought that the nice white lady could plan and execute such a horrific crime. All you Lindsay fans and army of love’ers are basically just racists writing paragraphs of conjecture and word salad because you’re terrified an umc white lady could be blamed and locked away for a crime she did commit.