Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Sure, all it would take is tens of millions of dollars that I'm sure someone has lying around.

I mean, yes. Skating is expensive. Ice time is expensive. Top coaching is expensive. Ballet is expensive. Opera is expensive. High art is expensive. What do we want to do? We either accept that they will be open only to the wealthy or to the privately sponsored. Or, you find public funding to make it available to most. I'm afraid there's no easy answer.

Chen's coach thinks skating academies are the answer where knowledge is centralized and systematic, and all skaters get the benefit of the same knowledge and experience.

Which is great for the 2% who become sucessful and not for the 98% who don't.

What is your answer? More medals? There can only be three medalists.

It's great for the 98% too because they get strong bodies, a lifelong hobby, and a habit of practice and discipline that translates well to other pursuits.

Anonymous wrote:A must watch.

I feel like this is hypocritical. Young retirement is common in skating. Oksana, Tara and Sarah all left in their teens. The fact is that few Olympic champions stay around. The motivation after the big O just isn't there. Really, the only hook of the story is the "lack of variety in their nationality", the fact that all these girls are Russian and come from the same coach. It would be better if they analyzed the last two Olympic pools and came up with the average age of a woman skater competing at the Olympics. Or worlds. Then you'll see if the world is getting younger, if skaters are retiring sooner, or if it's just Eteri.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Sure, all it would take is tens of millions of dollars that I'm sure someone has lying around.

I mean, yes. Skating is expensive. Ice time is expensive. Top coaching is expensive. Ballet is expensive. Opera is expensive. High art is expensive. What do we want to do? We either accept that they will be open only to the wealthy or to the privately sponsored. Or, you find public funding to make it available to most. I'm afraid there's no easy answer.

Chen's coach thinks skating academies are the answer where knowledge is centralized and systematic, and all skaters get the benefit of the same knowledge and experience.

Which is great for the 2% who become sucessful and not for the 98% who don't.

Anonymous wrote:
Sure, all it would take is tens of millions of dollars that I'm sure someone has lying around.

I mean, yes. Skating is expensive. Ice time is expensive. Top coaching is expensive. Ballet is expensive. Opera is expensive. High art is expensive. What do we want to do? We either accept that they will be open only to the wealthy or to the privately sponsored. Or, you find public funding to make it available to most. I'm afraid there's no easy answer.

Chen's coach thinks skating academies are the answer where knowledge is centralized and systematic, and all skaters get the benefit of the same knowledge and experience.

A must watch.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is there any US governing body that oversees the training of these children in skating and gymnastics? Is there anyone who is making sure they are not underfed, or overworked? I shudder to think of all the young women we've never heard of who have been just destroyed in the pursuit of these endeavors before they even get their period.

Well, before we get all super insane about this, lets be clear that this level of pressure and training exisits in most high-level sports for both genders from a very young age. Gymnastics and skating may be the worst all around, but there are lots of 11 year olds training 7 days a week/2-3 hours a day in soccer in local clubs. If you want to be a very serious athlete in non-team sports, you ramp down your schooling and ramp up your training. See: skiing, tennis, dance, etc.

Am I the only one who thinks it is pretty messed up that a kid under 16 can’t work at McDonald’s but can basically do 20 hours a week of training that can irrevocably damage their body? As for Nathan Cohen’s moms sacrifice, for every Nathan Chen or Hillary Swank are ten Larlo Chen and Larla Swanks who’s parents put it all on the line and ended up with a kid who just wasn’t good enough with a now broken spirit and parents with no retirement savings.

State-subsidized skating academies are the answer - so your kid can take serious skating lessons without you losing your house or pension, and when he or she isn't going to be good enough, to be told that - so that they can find another path in life.

Sure, all it would take is tens of millions of dollars that I'm sure someone has lying around.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is there any US governing body that oversees the training of these children in skating and gymnastics? Is there anyone who is making sure they are not underfed, or overworked? I shudder to think of all the young women we've never heard of who have been just destroyed in the pursuit of these endeavors before they even get their period.

Well, before we get all super insane about this, lets be clear that this level of pressure and training exisits in most high-level sports for both genders from a very young age. Gymnastics and skating may be the worst all around, but there are lots of 11 year olds training 7 days a week/2-3 hours a day in soccer in local clubs. If you want to be a very serious athlete in non-team sports, you ramp down your schooling and ramp up your training. See: skiing, tennis, dance, etc.

Am I the only one who thinks it is pretty messed up that a kid under 16 can’t work at McDonald’s but can basically do 20 hours a week of training that can irrevocably damage their body? As for Nathan Cohen’s moms sacrifice, for every Nathan Chen or Hillary Swank are ten Larlo Chen and Larla Swanks who’s parents put it all on the line and ended up with a kid who just wasn’t good enough with a now broken spirit and parents with no retirement savings.

State-subsidized skating academies are the answer - so your kid can take serious skating lessons without you losing your house or pension, and when he or she isn't going to be good enough, to be told that - so that they can find another path in life.

An interesting perspective from Raf Arutyunian and Nathan Chen, from 2018.

http://www.globetrottingbyphiliphersh.com/home/2018/2/9/he-said-he-said-chen-arutunian-dissect-methods

On Arutunian's reputation as a "tough love" coach

ARUTUNIAN

Hersh: You mentioned you don't have many young talents coming to you. Won't that change after your widely publicized success with Nathan?

Arutunian: In the U.S., there are some people who say about me, "Oh, he works only with older skaters" or "He's too mean." Those kids have coaches who every time say, "Oh, good job. Good job."

You don't say "Good job" every time, not 20 times a day. Come on. Whenever you win an Olympics, that's a good job.

Hersh: So you think they make the mistake of encouraging kids to think they are doing better than they really are?

Arutunian: That's a problem. Those kids are staying with a coach who says "Good job" because they like that. They will not come to me because I have very high standards. I can say "Good job," and it's really a good job, but maybe it's once a week or once a month or sometimes once a day -- but not 20 times a day.

CHEN

On this subject, Chen was asked immediately for his reaction to what his coach had said.

Hersh: Raf thinks few young skaters come to him because he doesn't give out praise constantly and because a lot of people think he is mean. Is Raf sparing with credit so it means more when he does say, "Good job?"

Chen: I would say that's true. Also, I grew up in a very Chinese-based family, and my parents are exactly the same way. When they say bad things about you, you know they have your best interests at heart. They're not trying to pull you down; they're trying to actually raise you up. That's more impactful than them congratulating you all the time.

Sometimes, when I work with coaches who do congratulate me all the time, it feels fake, not genuine. When Raf does congratulate me, you know you did a good job. Ultimately, you know that regardless of what he says, he wants you to be better. So you just try to use that as a positive versus a negative.

Hersh: Do you agree that some people do think he's mean?

Chen: For sure, but they didn't really get a chance to meet him and know him.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is there any US governing body that oversees the training of these children in skating and gymnastics? Is there anyone who is making sure they are not underfed, or overworked? I shudder to think of all the young women we've never heard of who have been just destroyed in the pursuit of these endeavors before they even get their period.

Well, before we get all super insane about this, lets be clear that this level of pressure and training exisits in most high-level sports for both genders from a very young age. Gymnastics and skating may be the worst all around, but there are lots of 11 year olds training 7 days a week/2-3 hours a day in soccer in local clubs. If you want to be a very serious athlete in non-team sports, you ramp down your schooling and ramp up your training. See: skiing, tennis, dance, etc.

Am I the only one who thinks it is pretty messed up that a kid under 16 can’t work at McDonald’s but can basically do 20 hours a week of training that can irrevocably damage their body? As for Nathan Cohen’s moms sacrifice, for every Nathan Chen or Hillary Swank are ten Larlo Chen and Larla Swanks who’s parents put it all on the line and ended up with a kid who just wasn’t good enough with a now broken spirit and parents with no retirement savings.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks for your story, PP. The question is - beyond the screaming and throwing things - did you feel like the director was moving you in the right direction toward being the best? Was he guiding you? Or was he just there?

Well, yes, in general. Arguably, he was a talented music educator. If he didn't produce results he wouldn't have led a top-rated program for two decades.

I think the question is - could those results have been attained without the same tactics? Maybe, maybe not. I just don't think that the strong feelings that Tarasova's former pupils have for her are uncommon. It's a kind of a trauma bonding/hero worship I guess. In general, kids crave approval. And here's this person that is thought of as someone authoritative to give that approval. So you get the approval and you get the gold medal. Lots of people then wipe aside everything else that has happened.

But others don't - can't remember the Russian skater that retired from Eteri's program and later admitted she had an eating disorder and had put away her skates for good. What happens if Valieva is so shattered she never wants to skate again? That's sad for the sport and incredibly sad for her. USA gymnastics covered up sexual assault. Etc., etc.

Well yes, of course. Tarasova is tough but she was never rumored to be abusive. Controlling, yes, but never cruel. She is also quite affectionate with her charges. And her value as a coach is undeniable. I mean look at Yagudin. He was a technically proficient but completely forgettable skater. Under Tarasova, he became a polished artist. So it's not just that she's authoritative, the kids see she has the knowledge and the experience to give them and guide them. Even if the process is painful.

The skater you're thinking about is Yulia Lipnitskaya and she actually has opened her own skating school so not done with the sport.

Anonymous wrote:https://www.sltrib.com/sports/2022/02/18/what-does-gold-mean-an/

Really sweet story about Nathan Chen’s mom and the sacrifices she made for all her kids. She used to work multiple jobs and would sleep in her car.

Now her kids include a gold medalist and a biotech company founder.

Immigrant parents made a lot of sacrifices for their kids. We are all very lucky.

If you guys want a great (if long) look at the single-use Russian skating factory, watch this.

https://youtu.be/FqtHSvkPWPk

Anonymous wrote:Thanks for your story, PP. The question is - beyond the screaming and throwing things - did you feel like the director was moving you in the right direction toward being the best? Was he guiding you? Or was he just there?

Well, yes, in general. Arguably, he was a talented music educator. If he didn't produce results he wouldn't have led a top-rated program for two decades.

I think the question is - could those results have been attained without the same tactics? Maybe, maybe not. I just don't think that the strong feelings that Tarasova's former pupils have for her are uncommon. It's a kind of a trauma bonding/hero worship I guess. In general, kids crave approval. And here's this person that is thought of as someone authoritative to give that approval. So you get the approval and you get the gold medal. Lots of people then wipe aside everything else that has happened.

But others don't - can't remember the Russian skater that retired from Eteri's program and later admitted she had an eating disorder and had put away her skates for good. What happens if Valieva is so shattered she never wants to skate again? That's sad for the sport and incredibly sad for her. USA gymnastics covered up sexual assault. Etc., etc.

Anonymous wrote:Sambo-70 is a sports school from the Soviet days…not sure if they have other sports still?

yes I know that was making a joke...

Sambo-70 is a sports school from the Soviet days…not sure if they have other sports still?