Anonymous wrote:I agree that they are trying to pull kids up, not bring kids down. Ms. Martin does not need the white parents calling, no matter how supportive you say you are; I think they can handle it. A few years ago Ms. Martin said when people were pushing back on large AP class sizes that it was fine because they didn't need the help at that level, so perhaps she will work to get class sizes down this way, which benefits all kids.

I have a senior and and last year in AP English the kids were reading different books. This year too. It hasn't been one book for the entire class. People need to relax and if your kid later has issues, bring it up.

Please clarify: they were reading different books in the same class? What do you mean?

I agree that they are trying to pull kids up, not bring kids down. Ms. Martin does not need the white parents calling, no matter how supportive you say you are; I think they can handle it. A few years ago Ms. Martin said when people were pushing back on large AP class sizes that it was fine because they didn't need the help at that level, so perhaps she will work to get class sizes down this way, which benefits all kids.

I have a senior and and last year in AP English the kids were reading different books. This year too. It hasn't been one book for the entire class. People need to relax and if your kid later has issues, bring it up.

Anonymous wrote:Kids will arrive to college with fewer skills if they are not pushed to achieve.

100% correct. Students who are pushed to achieve in HS will be stronger students in college. This is not debatable.

My personal experience in college was that students who came from more rigorous HS backgrounds were the best students in freshman year. I caught up with them (because I needed "A's" in order to get into graduate school, so that was my motivation) but it took two years of hard work to do it. I have read enough of the quasi-scientific data to believe that my personal experience is backed up by the studies: that is, high SAT scores are a very good predictor of high performance in college, but only for the freshman year. The students who want to do well in college (and don't drop out) as a group catch up, SAT scores notwithstanding.

What is being left out of the discussion vis a vis Wilson is whether the "honors and AP for all" situation is going to make the lesser-performing students going in, more academically competent over time. The difference between the two examples -- college vs high school -- is that colleges traditionally don't dumb down the courses because they DGAF about the socio-economic background of the students. Once they are in, they are in, and they have to sink or swim in order to survive. We don't know to what degree the Wilson teachers will be laying out a "sink or swim" platform in their "AP for all" classes. If they don't, then it is only AP in name.

The solution lies in elementary school, if not earlier.

Pretending you can fix learning disparities — even if caused by structural racism — with “Honors for All” is absurd. There’s no way to do that without underserving the highly prepared students.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Back to the original topic - the school confirmed that this is universal AP for all - ALL JUNIORS will be forced to take AP US History and AP Language next year. No other option. There is some lip service to how they will use differentiation to address the needs of all students, but really, this seems like a very significant change to impose on students right now.

I do not see how you can implement this change without both (a) hindering the experience of those who are truly ready for these classes, and (b) increasing the stress and burden on students who are not. Obviously it will increase the number of students of color in AP classes because they will have no choice. They are forcing the student body to achieve this goal of equal representation in AP classes across all socio economic backgrounds, but they sure are willing to incur alot of innocent casualties along the way.

I didn’t see another email. Can you let us know how they confirmed?

Can somebody please publish the email announcing the further extension of Honors for All? Thanks

A message from Wilson HS
AP U.S. History and AP English Language
for All Juniors in School Year 2021-2022

The faculty and staff at Wilson High School are committed to creating equitable learning experiences for our students. From thoughtful reflection and inquiries to professional development opportunities to the implementation of institutional changes at our school, we continue to work to dismantle racist, patriarchal, and exclusionary systems at Wilson. This work is not done until we eradicate all systems of oppression that inhibit student learning and development and access to a supportive and rigorous learning environment for all.

Launched in the 2017-2018 school year, the Honors for All Initiative seeks to advance equity at our school. It is crucial that we continue this work across all grade levels and subject areas, while also expanding access to academic opportunities for all students. Following the work of the World History II Team last year, our next step in advancing equity at Wilson is to offer AP U.S. History and AP English Language for all juniors in the 2021-2022 academic year.

Moving to AP for all in both of the core English and Social Studies courses is an adaptive change that will require significant technical changes on the part of our staff. Our students are telling us they want access to equitable educational experiences, including AP classes. It is our job to make AP classes accessible, safe learning environments for all students.

My fear, looking at this from a few years out from Wilson, is that Martin is so focused on a social agenda, that it is unimportant to her if my blond-hair, blue-eyed, super-smart boy’s education is collateral damage.

I would love to hear that my fears are not justified and that he will be encouraged and allowed to thrive at Wilson.

They are not justified. But if you look at it as zero sum where your child’s experience will necessarily suffer if other kids’ experiences are improved, I don’t think you will be happy at Wilson.

Signed, parent of two smart white boys (one currently thriving at Wilson, the other on the way there)

but this is the problem, it is the school that makes it a zero sum issue. my kid sucks at STEM but excels at social studies and last year (9th grade) signed up for AP World history in 10th grade. then in May the school decided to cancel that class for sophomores. in the call with the parents, the principal expressly said that the class was canceled because mostly white kids had signed up for the class and minority kids were mostly taking the regular honor class and structural racism and so on. we repeatedly asked how canceling the AP class in 10th grade for kids who wanted to take was going to help the kids who were not up to (or did not want to) take the class and there was no reasonable answer. to me it was just a cheap way for the school to hide the fact that the 9th grade honor for all system had not worked in bringing kids who were behind up to grade and canceling the AP class was the easier way to hide the fact that in 10th grade not that many minority kids were taking it.

educating all the kids is not and should not be a zero sum. but Wilson is making it a zero sum

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My nephew was talking about this issue this weekend and supports it because he was an A-/B+ student in honors classes. He said he could try harder but prefers more time practicing his sport. He said before if half of kids were in honors he wasn’t in the top 10-15 of an individual honors class but now that all classes are honors the bottom of the class is mainly kids who would be in non-honors classes. So he is getting straight A’s while not working as hard as he did. While kids who wouldn’t have been in honors get B’s and C’s. And there are a few non-honors kids who are doing really well because it motivated them.

Just to be clear — he’s saying he likes Honors for All because it makes him look better with less work?

If so, expected outcomes realized...

This confirms everything the parents are concerned about. By putting everyone in the same class the class just ends up being a much less rigorous class because the teachers do not have the ability or bandwidth to appropriate differentiate and provide the scaffolding that is needed. There is alot of talk about the front end about differentiation to keep it rigorous for the more advanced students and scaffolding for the students needing more support, but so far it isn't happening. My Wilson student reports that so far, most of "honors" Chemistry is stuff previously learned in middle school. The "Honors for all" classes area really, really easy in practice. And yes, it does lead to grade inflation.

I acknowledge that its a problem that the AP classes are whiter than the student body. And its also a problem students of color do not feel comfortable or welcome in those classes. I have a hard time believing this is the only solution to that problem, but that is what Wilson keeps saying - they have tried everything else and this is the only solution they think will make a dent. I do have a hard time believing that, but I have not been on the inside of this. I wish the school would be more candid about the fact that inevitably this blunt solution leads (at least in the short term) to a reduction in the overall rigor of these classes. And so far, I don't see any evidence that this is just a short term problem at Wilson because Honors for All has been around for several years and the classes do not provide an honors experience.

How does your student know that this is different than what would have happened in a “traditional” honors class? Maybe he’s good at science. Maybe he had a rock-star MS teacher who pushed advanced material. Maybe the HS chemistry teacher is not a great teacher and wouldn’t have been better in the old system.

My own kid, who has always been a very successful student and I assume would have been in traditional honors classes, likes his classes and finds them interesting and engaging. Again, I have no idea how the classes would have been different under the old system, but I just can’t take these reports of kids who find them easy as any sort of meaningful evidence that “honors for all” is bad.

Will all students be required to sit for the AP exam?

Kids will arrive to college with fewer skills if they are not pushed to achieve.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My nephew was talking about this issue this weekend and supports it because he was an A-/B+ student in honors classes. He said he could try harder but prefers more time practicing his sport. He said before if half of kids were in honors he wasn’t in the top 10-15 of an individual honors class but now that all classes are honors the bottom of the class is mainly kids who would be in non-honors classes. So he is getting straight A’s while not working as hard as he did. While kids who wouldn’t have been in honors get B’s and C’s. And there are a few non-honors kids who are doing really well because it motivated them.

Just to be clear — he’s saying he likes Honors for All because it makes him look better with less work?

If so, expected outcomes realized...

This confirms everything the parents are concerned about. By putting everyone in the same class the class just ends up being a much less rigorous class because the teachers do not have the ability or bandwidth to appropriate differentiate and provide the scaffolding that is needed. There is alot of talk about the front end about differentiation to keep it rigorous for the more advanced students and scaffolding for the students needing more support, but so far it isn't happening. My Wilson student reports that so far, most of "honors" Chemistry is stuff previously learned in middle school. The "Honors for all" classes area really, really easy in practice. And yes, it does lead to grade inflation.

I acknowledge that its a problem that the AP classes are whiter than the student body. And its also a problem students of color do not feel comfortable or welcome in those classes. I have a hard time believing this is the only solution to that problem, but that is what Wilson keeps saying - they have tried everything else and this is the only solution they think will make a dent. I do have a hard time believing that, but I have not been on the inside of this. I wish the school would be more candid about the fact that inevitably this blunt solution leads (at least in the short term) to a reduction in the overall rigor of these classes. And so far, I don't see any evidence that this is just a short term problem at Wilson because Honors for All has been around for several years and the classes do not provide an honors experience.

Anonymous wrote:My nephew was talking about this issue this weekend and supports it because he was an A-/B+ student in honors classes. He said he could try harder but prefers more time practicing his sport. He said before if half of kids were in honors he wasn’t in the top 10-15 of an individual honors class but now that all classes are honors the bottom of the class is mainly kids who would be in non-honors classes. So he is getting straight A’s while not working as hard as he did. While kids who wouldn’t have been in honors get B’s and C’s. And there are a few non-honors kids who are doing really well because it motivated them.

Just to be clear — he’s saying he likes Honors for All because it makes him look better with less work?

If so, expected outcomes realized...

FWIW, similar concerns are being raised about how the Walls admissions went down this year. Because there was no test and a much larger pool of applicants based only on (inflated COVID-year) GPAs and arbitrary 5 minute interviews, there's lots of talk about how the student body--widely believed to be the main strength of the school--will not be the same as in years past. I happen to disagree and think the wider net that has been cast is good and that more needs to be done to diversify access to opportunity. But, to the PP's point, I agree that the more parents can focus less on fighting changes and rather supporting making those changes successful for all students the better.

How about if all of the parents who want both equity and a strong education for their kids call/write the school and support the change and ask how to help make this work on both fronts? The school will have a much better chance of making this work for all students if we're all rowing in the same direction.

Anonymous wrote:LOL: your "fear" is a social agenda? What else could it be, the language of the email is explicit. "Equitable learning" requires removing "exclusionary systems."

Frankly: removing exclusionary systems sounds good, but the reality of the world is that all humans are not the best fit for all tasks. I think the motivation is noble, but the implementation requires someone smart and wise and effectively educated to implement...otherwise, it does more harm than good, in the long run.

‘Fearful’ PP here. I agree with the goals. I grew up in an environment with a lot of sexism, so I get, more or less, the evils of discrimination.

My concern is that the educational mission of Wilson will get lost in a possible over-eagerness to fix society. I want to believe that Wilson will serve the education of all students well, not just dismiss some with an “eh, they [though actually their predecessors] were oppressors so who cares if they suffer now?”

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Back to the original topic - the school confirmed that this is universal AP for all - ALL JUNIORS will be forced to take AP US History and AP Language next year. No other option. There is some lip service to how they will use differentiation to address the needs of all students, but really, this seems like a very significant change to impose on students right now.

I do not see how you can implement this change without both (a) hindering the experience of those who are truly ready for these classes, and (b) increasing the stress and burden on students who are not. Obviously it will increase the number of students of color in AP classes because they will have no choice. They are forcing the student body to achieve this goal of equal representation in AP classes across all socio economic backgrounds, but they sure are willing to incur alot of innocent casualties along the way.

I didn’t see another email. Can you let us know how they confirmed?

Can somebody please publish the email announcing the further extension of Honors for All? Thanks

A message from Wilson HS
AP U.S. History and AP English Language
for All Juniors in School Year 2021-2022

The faculty and staff at Wilson High School are committed to creating equitable learning experiences for our students. From thoughtful reflection and inquiries to professional development opportunities to the implementation of institutional changes at our school, we continue to work to dismantle racist, patriarchal, and exclusionary systems at Wilson. This work is not done until we eradicate all systems of oppression that inhibit student learning and development and access to a supportive and rigorous learning environment for all.

Launched in the 2017-2018 school year, the Honors for All Initiative seeks to advance equity at our school. It is crucial that we continue this work across all grade levels and subject areas, while also expanding access to academic opportunities for all students. Following the work of the World History II Team last year, our next step in advancing equity at Wilson is to offer AP U.S. History and AP English Language for all juniors in the 2021-2022 academic year.

Moving to AP for all in both of the core English and Social Studies courses is an adaptive change that will require significant technical changes on the part of our staff. Our students are telling us they want access to equitable educational experiences, including AP classes. It is our job to make AP classes accessible, safe learning environments for all students.

My fear, looking at this from a few years out from Wilson, is that Martin is so focused on a social agenda, that it is unimportant to her if my blond-hair, blue-eyed, super-smart boy’s education is collateral damage.

I would love to hear that my fears are not justified and that he will be encouraged and allowed to thrive at Wilson.

They are not justified. But if you look at it as zero sum where your child’s experience will necessarily suffer if other kids’ experiences are improved, I don’t think you will be happy at Wilson.

Signed, parent of two smart white boys (one currently thriving at Wilson, the other on the way there)

My nephew was talking about this issue this weekend and supports it because he was an A-/B+ student in honors classes. He said he could try harder but prefers more time practicing his sport. He said before if half of kids were in honors he wasn’t in the top 10-15 of an individual honors class but now that all classes are honors the bottom of the class is mainly kids who would be in non-honors classes. So he is getting straight A’s while not working as hard as he did. While kids who wouldn’t have been in honors get B’s and C’s. And there are a few non-honors kids who are doing really well because it motivated them.