Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

+1. As a European, it's really interesting to watch American liberals make this "you are on your own, fend for yourselves" argument when it comes to kids and families during the pandemic, while on the other hand calling for a "we are all in this together" approach when it comes to virus containment. European societies take a much more holistic approach to public health and community solidarity, one that balances the well-being and education of kids and the ability of families to maintain jobs with the need to contain the spread to protect those vulnerable to the virus, and most importantly, keep hospitals from getting overwhelmed. That's why they are STILL keeping schools at least partially open in many places (misleading headlines notwithstanding), and will certainly not keep them closed for the rest of the year.

Thank you for this. I am an American but it is disturbing to me how much I hear liberal Americans espousing a view on the pandemic that is so focused on "personal responsibility" which is the same argument conservatives use to deny welfare benefits to single mothers or refuse asylum to immigrants.

The best possible response to a pandemic is communal. I think it can be hard to remember that in the US, where we have such an individualistic culture. Combine it with all the misinformation circulating (yes, I'm talking to you, PP who keeps posting links to a bunch of headlines in tweets to make your argument instead of engaging with what people are actually saying in the thread) and it's a recipe for disaster. If we leave families to just figure all of this out on their own, we will leave behind the vast majority of families.

It amuses me how parents here think they can just wish away data and scientific analysis. All spring and summer you were screaming for schools to open because 'kids aren't affected'. Now Europe/UK are reeling from a surge in viral cases and a mutation linked from their 'open no matter what' policies. It also turns out kids are carriers who are highly efficient at spreading the virus. Now you just want to ignore all that and still open schools because little Susie needs companionship.

Sorry. Gates closed. Figure it out.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
OK, then can we at least admit that the country and state have decided that the education and civic development of children are no longer public priorities, and acknowledge that kids are missing out on important experiences because of a conscious decision that the preservation of adult life is more important? The idea that education is completely separable from interpersonal interaction and that any problems with a year of isolation are due to bad parenting is wishful thinking so nobody has to feel bad, we can just blame individuals for being lazy moral failures who brought it on themselves, because that's the American way.

This is not exactly some kind of hidden agenda. And kids have a huge interest in the preservation of adult life.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

+1. As a European, it's really interesting to watch American liberals make this "you are on your own, fend for yourselves" argument when it comes to kids and families during the pandemic, while on the other hand calling for a "we are all in this together" approach when it comes to virus containment. European societies take a much more holistic approach to public health and community solidarity, one that balances the well-being and education of kids and the ability of families to maintain jobs with the need to contain the spread to protect those vulnerable to the virus, and most importantly, keep hospitals from getting overwhelmed. That's why they are STILL keeping schools at least partially open in many places (misleading headlines notwithstanding), and will certainly not keep them closed for the rest of the year.

Thank you for this. I am an American but it is disturbing to me how much I hear liberal Americans espousing a view on the pandemic that is so focused on "personal responsibility" which is the same argument conservatives use to deny welfare benefits to single mothers or refuse asylum to immigrants.

The best possible response to a pandemic is communal. I think it can be hard to remember that in the US, where we have such an individualistic culture. Combine it with all the misinformation circulating (yes, I'm talking to you, PP who keeps posting links to a bunch of headlines in tweets to make your argument instead of engaging with what people are actually saying in the thread) and it's a recipe for disaster. If we leave families to just figure all of this out on their own, we will leave behind the vast majority of families.

It amuses me how parents here think they can just wish away data and scientific analysis. All spring and summer you were screaming for schools to open because 'kids aren't affected'. Now Europe/UK are reeling from a surge in viral cases and a mutation linked from their 'open no matter what' policies. It also turns out kids are carriers who are highly efficient at spreading the virus. Now you just want to ignore all that and still open schools because little Susie needs companionship.

Sorry. Gates closed. Figure it out.

You don’t have science on your side if you are arguing that open schools caused the surge in Europe. Please stop pretending you do.

Anonymous wrote:The entire dialogue around Covid is insane.

Year to year - according to CDC - more folks die of heart disease and of cancer - not combined but in each of those categories.

It is unclear why children are being sacrificed. Yes - they can spread it but can we do an intelligent cost/benefit analysis on this?

In the DMV during this whole almost year now, nobody has focused on children or their needs. Its all about the teachers and their rights, darn it!

But great news, obese folks are priority for vaccines.

It's absurd.

Anonymous wrote:
OK, then can we at least admit that the country and state have decided that the education and civic development of children are no longer public priorities, and acknowledge that kids are missing out on important experiences because of a conscious decision that the preservation of adult life is more important? The idea that education is completely separable from interpersonal interaction and that any problems with a year of isolation are due to bad parenting is wishful thinking so nobody has to feel bad, we can just blame individuals for being lazy moral failures who brought it on themselves, because that's the American way.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OK, but the "pay for care" argument is a straw man. Do people want school so they can work? Some do. But even people who have childcare or don't need it want school to reopen so their children can learn.

I have three kids. One in upper elementary, one in middle school and one in K. The older two are doing fine enough in terms of learning. The kindergartener is learning NOTHING from online school. Anything she's picked up is because I have been teaching her, and various educational apps have assisted.

I do not need childcare. I can do childcare portion of it just fine myself and have been doing it. I need school to reopen for at least the youngest one at least part-time because she is not learning via distance learning and neither is a lot of her friends, from talking to those kids' parents. Because I do not need school for childcare, I'd be fine with hybrid (part of the week, part of the day, whatever.) But no in-person school is not working for my youngest who is simply too young to learn through a screen.

Yes, yes, sure, I am teaching my kid myself and hopefully she won't be too far behind where she is supposed to be. But then the question becomes is if I am teaching my child by myself, why is the teacher collecting a paycheck for a job she is not doing in any effective way for my child (or the bulk of the children in that age group.) Some jobs cannot be effectively done from home and teaching very young children is one of them. I am fine for providing the child care component for all my children - the teachers are supposed to be providing effective teaching however. They are doing it for my two oldest because they are at the age where online learning is at least feasible if not ideal. They are not doing it for my youngest.

If people think it's OK for children, especially younger children, to fall behind (and let's face it, in a lot of families that are not as well off as the usual DCUM poster, fall behind irretrievably) so that teachers would feel safer, that's a position that can be argued. But at least don't be a hypocrite who claims that people only want childcare and that distance learning is just wonderful when for a lot of people that is not the case.

You are being really dramatic. You are teaching her yourself. She needs to know how to read, write and basic math. You get a few workbooks and apps and done. Regardless of school, you should do this anyway. She'll be fine.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

+1. As a European, it's really interesting to watch American liberals make this "you are on your own, fend for yourselves" argument when it comes to kids and families during the pandemic, while on the other hand calling for a "we are all in this together" approach when it comes to virus containment. European societies take a much more holistic approach to public health and community solidarity, one that balances the well-being and education of kids and the ability of families to maintain jobs with the need to contain the spread to protect those vulnerable to the virus, and most importantly, keep hospitals from getting overwhelmed. That's why they are STILL keeping schools at least partially open in many places (misleading headlines notwithstanding), and will certainly not keep them closed for the rest of the year.

Thank you for this. I am an American but it is disturbing to me how much I hear liberal Americans espousing a view on the pandemic that is so focused on "personal responsibility" which is the same argument conservatives use to deny welfare benefits to single mothers or refuse asylum to immigrants.

The best possible response to a pandemic is communal. I think it can be hard to remember that in the US, where we have such an individualistic culture. Combine it with all the misinformation circulating (yes, I'm talking to you, PP who keeps posting links to a bunch of headlines in tweets to make your argument instead of engaging with what people are actually saying in the thread) and it's a recipe for disaster. If we leave families to just figure all of this out on their own, we will leave behind the vast majority of families.

It amuses me how parents here think they can just wish away data and scientific analysis. All spring and summer you were screaming for schools to open because 'kids aren't affected'. Now Europe/UK are reeling from a surge in viral cases and a mutation linked from their 'open no matter what' policies. It also turns out kids are carriers who are highly efficient at spreading the virus. Now you just want to ignore all that and still open schools because little Susie needs companionship.

Sorry. Gates closed. Figure it out.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OK, but the "pay for care" argument is a straw man. Do people want school so they can work? Some do. But even people who have childcare or don't need it want school to reopen so their children can learn.

I have three kids. One in upper elementary, one in middle school and one in K. The older two are doing fine enough in terms of learning. The kindergartener is learning NOTHING from online school. Anything she's picked up is because I have been teaching her, and various educational apps have assisted.

I do not need childcare. I can do childcare portion of it just fine myself and have been doing it. I need school to reopen for at least the youngest one at least part-time because she is not learning via distance learning and neither is a lot of her friends, from talking to those kids' parents. Because I do not need school for childcare, I'd be fine with hybrid (part of the week, part of the day, whatever.) But no in-person school is not working for my youngest who is simply too young to learn through a screen.

Yes, yes, sure, I am teaching my kid myself and hopefully she won't be too far behind where she is supposed to be. But then the question becomes is if I am teaching my child by myself, why is the teacher collecting a paycheck for a job she is not doing in any effective way for my child (or the bulk of the children in that age group.) Some jobs cannot be effectively done from home and teaching very young children is one of them. I am fine for providing the child care component for all my children - the teachers are supposed to be providing effective teaching however. They are doing it for my two oldest because they are at the age where online learning is at least feasible if not ideal. They are not doing it for my youngest.

If people think it's OK for children, especially younger children, to fall behind (and let's face it, in a lot of families that are not as well off as the usual DCUM poster, fall behind irretrievably) so that teachers would feel safer, that's a position that can be argued. But at least don't be a hypocrite who claims that people only want childcare and that distance learning is just wonderful when for a lot of people that is not the case.

You are being really dramatic. You are teaching her yourself. She needs to know how to read, write and basic math. You get a few workbooks and apps and done. Regardless of school, you should do this anyway. She'll be fine.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kids are struggling for a variety of reasons but they need adult support. Kids will struggle if they don't have someone to monitor and support them when they have questions and make sure assignments is done. Likewise, if your kid is struggling at home you need to look at what is going on and change your home structure to make it work for your child. You cannot expect schools to be everything to everyone, especially in terms of mental health. If your child is struggling, use your insurance and get your child and you support.

But it's reasonable to expect parenrs to be able to fulfill 100% of their kids' social, emotional, academic, and physical and mental health needs, without ever interacting in person with another human? I just don't think that's realistic. Parents aren't all amazing at everything and other relationships outside the nuclear family do play important roles in child development too. This is so so much pressure and it's not realistic.

No. But it's reasonable for parents to understand that school buildings are not the only way for their kids to have social contact and to arrange that if their kids need it, not to repeatedly demand that schools open in enclosed prolonged indoor contact during a pandemic. If your kids need socialixation, or their needs met, step up and arrange it. You don't need schools to parent for you. That's not their job. Education is their job and yes, is being provided, whether you like it or not, approve or not or agree or not.

THIS!

If you really think 6.5 hours in a classroom with 12 other kids is safe, then you are good to host a 2 hour play date for one kid at your house.

That said, a friend has tried this repeatedly and is finding that other parents don’t want to do the play dates. I think that’s a good signal that either they don’t think it’s safe or their kids are not having meltdowns like her son is.

DP, but a huge part of the problem is that parents are having to do it all with zero childcare. I mean, when are they supposed to work in between supervising remote learning and making sure their kids get their social/emotional needs met?

It’s not a personal criticism of teachers to note that schools provided care for children, which allowed parents to work. When that care was no longer provided, parents are left in the lurch of having to do it all and then accused of being lazy and awful if they’re struggling. It’s one of the practical reasons remote learning doesn’t work for the younger set.

Can I just say after nearly a year -- if you don't get this, let me spell it out for you.

Your kid's social engagement schedule is not the country's or the state's problem during a pandemic. Their job is to protect the community's public health and with nearly half a million Americans dead -- get ready for more stringent lockdowns, not less.

OK, then can we at least admit that the country and state have decided that the education and civic development of children are no longer public priorities, and acknowledge that kids are missing out on important experiences because of a conscious decision that the preservation of adult life is more important? The idea that education is completely separable from interpersonal interaction and that any problems with a year of isolation are due to bad parenting is wishful thinking so nobody has to feel bad, we can just blame individuals for being lazy moral failures who brought it on themselves, because that's the American way.

Anonymous wrote:OK, but the "pay for care" argument is a straw man. Do people want school so they can work? Some do. But even people who have childcare or don't need it want school to reopen so their children can learn.

I have three kids. One in upper elementary, one in middle school and one in K. The older two are doing fine enough in terms of learning. The kindergartener is learning NOTHING from online school. Anything she's picked up is because I have been teaching her, and various educational apps have assisted.

I do not need childcare. I can do childcare portion of it just fine myself and have been doing it. I need school to reopen for at least the youngest one at least part-time because she is not learning via distance learning and neither is a lot of her friends, from talking to those kids' parents. Because I do not need school for childcare, I'd be fine with hybrid (part of the week, part of the day, whatever.) But no in-person school is not working for my youngest who is simply too young to learn through a screen.

Yes, yes, sure, I am teaching my kid myself and hopefully she won't be too far behind where she is supposed to be. But then the question becomes is if I am teaching my child by myself, why is the teacher collecting a paycheck for a job she is not doing in any effective way for my child (or the bulk of the children in that age group.) Some jobs cannot be effectively done from home and teaching very young children is one of them. I am fine for providing the child care component for all my children - the teachers are supposed to be providing effective teaching however. They are doing it for my two oldest because they are at the age where online learning is at least feasible if not ideal. They are not doing it for my youngest.

If people think it's OK for children, especially younger children, to fall behind (and let's face it, in a lot of families that are not as well off as the usual DCUM poster, fall behind irretrievably) so that teachers would feel safer, that's a position that can be argued. But at least don't be a hypocrite who claims that people only want childcare and that distance learning is just wonderful when for a lot of people that is not the case.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kids are struggling for a variety of reasons but they need adult support. Kids will struggle if they don't have someone to monitor and support them when they have questions and make sure assignments is done. Likewise, if your kid is struggling at home you need to look at what is going on and change your home structure to make it work for your child. You cannot expect schools to be everything to everyone, especially in terms of mental health. If your child is struggling, use your insurance and get your child and you support.

But it's reasonable to expect parenrs to be able to fulfill 100% of their kids' social, emotional, academic, and physical and mental health needs, without ever interacting in person with another human? I just don't think that's realistic. Parents aren't all amazing at everything and other relationships outside the nuclear family do play important roles in child development too. This is so so much pressure and it's not realistic.

No. But it's reasonable for parents to understand that school buildings are not the only way for their kids to have social contact and to arrange that if their kids need it, not to repeatedly demand that schools open in enclosed prolonged indoor contact during a pandemic. If your kids need socialixation, or their needs met, step up and arrange it. You don't need schools to parent for you. That's not their job. Education is their job and yes, is being provided, whether you like it or not, approve or not or agree or not.

THIS!

If you really think 6.5 hours in a classroom with 12 other kids is safe, then you are good to host a 2 hour play date for one kid at your house.

That said, a friend has tried this repeatedly and is finding that other parents don’t want to do the play dates. I think that’s a good signal that either they don’t think it’s safe or their kids are not having meltdowns like her son is.

DP, but a huge part of the problem is that parents are having to do it all with zero childcare. I mean, when are they supposed to work in between supervising remote learning and making sure their kids get their social/emotional needs met?

It’s not a personal criticism of teachers to note that schools provided care for children, which allowed parents to work. When that care was no longer provided, parents are left in the lurch of having to do it all and then accused of being lazy and awful if they’re struggling. It’s one of the practical reasons remote learning doesn’t work for the younger set.

Can I just say after nearly a year -- if you don't get this, let me spell it out for you.

Your kid's social engagement schedule is not the country's or the state's problem during a pandemic. Their job is to protect the community's public health and with nearly half a million Americans dead -- get ready for more stringent lockdowns, not less.

OK, then can we at least admit that the country and state have decided that the education and civic development of children are no longer public priorities, and acknowledge that kids are missing out on important experiences because of a conscious decision that the preservation of adult life is more important? The idea that education is completely separable from interpersonal interaction and that any problems with a year of isolation are due to bad parenting is wishful thinking so nobody has to feel bad, we can just blame individuals for being lazy moral failures who brought it on themselves, because that's the American way.

OK, then can we at least admit that the country and state have decided that the education and civic development of children are no longer public priorities, and acknowledge that kids are missing out on important experiences because of a conscious decision that the preservation of adult life is more important? The idea that education is completely separable from interpersonal interaction and that any problems with a year of isolation are due to bad parenting is wishful thinking so nobody has to feel bad, we can just blame individuals for being lazy moral failures who brought it on themselves, because that's the American way.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kids are struggling for a variety of reasons but they need adult support. Kids will struggle if they don't have someone to monitor and support them when they have questions and make sure assignments is done. Likewise, if your kid is struggling at home you need to look at what is going on and change your home structure to make it work for your child. You cannot expect schools to be everything to everyone, especially in terms of mental health. If your child is struggling, use your insurance and get your child and you support.

But it's reasonable to expect parenrs to be able to fulfill 100% of their kids' social, emotional, academic, and physical and mental health needs, without ever interacting in person with another human? I just don't think that's realistic. Parents aren't all amazing at everything and other relationships outside the nuclear family do play important roles in child development too. This is so so much pressure and it's not realistic.

No. But it's reasonable for parents to understand that school buildings are not the only way for their kids to have social contact and to arrange that if their kids need it, not to repeatedly demand that schools open in enclosed prolonged indoor contact during a pandemic. If your kids need socialixation, or their needs met, step up and arrange it. You don't need schools to parent for you. That's not their job. Education is their job and yes, is being provided, whether you like it or not, approve or not or agree or not.

THIS!

If you really think 6.5 hours in a classroom with 12 other kids is safe, then you are good to host a 2 hour play date for one kid at your house.

That said, a friend has tried this repeatedly and is finding that other parents don’t want to do the play dates. I think that’s a good signal that either they don’t think it’s safe or their kids are not having meltdowns like her son is.

DP, but a huge part of the problem is that parents are having to do it all with zero childcare. I mean, when are they supposed to work in between supervising remote learning and making sure their kids get their social/emotional needs met?

It’s not a personal criticism of teachers to note that schools provided care for children, which allowed parents to work. When that care was no longer provided, parents are left in the lurch of having to do it all and then accused of being lazy and awful if they’re struggling. It’s one of the practical reasons remote learning doesn’t work for the younger set.

Can I just say after nearly a year -- if you don't get this, let me spell it out for you.

Your kid's social engagement schedule is not the country's or the state's problem during a pandemic. Their job is to protect the community's public health and with nearly half a million Americans dead -- get ready for more stringent lockdowns, not less.

Anonymous wrote:Seriously advocate for teacher vaccinations. Now. That’s the conversation we should be having.

Then we can all go back properly.