Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do believe there is a distinction between people who cheat once and those who are serial cheaters.

If a person cheats, realizes it is something THEY cannot live with--it goes against their morals, they feel true remorse about the pain they have caused others and they invest a lot of time and effort into seeking treatment then they have a chance of not repeating the behavior.

The ones who astound me are the ones who cheat, fall all over themselves apologizing, crying, acting as if they can't go on living.... only to do it all again once things have gone back to "normal." I've known one serial cheater (friend and co-worker) in my life and he is in his late 50's, still unmarried and still at it.

Only the cheater truly knows how they feel inside and how much effort they are willing to put into recovery.

Only the person who was cheated on knows if they can ever truly move forward and live with the cheater.

The problem is, how do you make that distinction? Many people, particularly narcissists, are very good actors.

I don't know many that would stick with individual therapy for years on end if they were a true narcissist. In fact, a trademark of a narcissist is that they will never think they need or go to therapy usually. If you have a man or woman that commits to weekly individual therapy indefinitely, you can pretty much guarantee they aren't a narcissist. Also, anyone that does not want to give up a lifestyle will make a half-hearted attempt and you will see all of the signs that no change was made.

I do think there needs to be rock bottom so I do agree with the pps that said the cheater really has to believe they are being dumped---and some hard lines need to be implemented.

Nobody is going to write away their rights in a post-nuptial agreement if they plan to cheat again. And, if they do---hey you get the big pay out.

Anonymous wrote:I do believe there is a distinction between people who cheat once and those who are serial cheaters.

If a person cheats, realizes it is something THEY cannot live with--it goes against their morals, they feel true remorse about the pain they have caused others and they invest a lot of time and effort into seeking treatment then they have a chance of not repeating the behavior.

The ones who astound me are the ones who cheat, fall all over themselves apologizing, crying, acting as if they can't go on living.... only to do it all again once things have gone back to "normal." I've known one serial cheater (friend and co-worker) in my life and he is in his late 50's, still unmarried and still at it.

Only the cheater truly knows how they feel inside and how much effort they are willing to put into recovery.

Only the person who was cheated on knows if they can ever truly move forward and live with the cheater.

The problem is, how do you make that distinction? Many people, particularly narcissists, are very good actors.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP- the problem with affairs is nobody knows the success stories or couples that survived and then thrived because they are dirty, dark guarded secrets. Most people tell nobody but a therapist. You’d be shocked at how many marriages you view as happy and successful were rocked by an affair at some point.

As a therapist, I see it all. Every situation and every human being is different. The “once a cheater” is just not true. People that take deep inventory and WANT to change and put in hard work can and do change. To think otherwise is to say nobody is ever capable of change.

When you listen to the anecdotal evidence realize that you are much more likely to hear the horror stories, the extremes and the cases where one party did not want to be in a marriage. You are not getting the stories of those that faced it head on and came out with a much deeper, living marriage. And, that’s not because there aren’t many of those out there. It is because they are very private matters which people do not disclose to protect their children.

Good luck. Hearing what a friend of friend had happen or a scorned man or woman had happen by no means mean that is your situation. Everyone has different reasons, different traumas, different relationships and personalities.

It’s getting to the heart of your own situation and after deep examination with therapy individually for both of you and after that couples’ you can decide if it is a marriage worth saving, a person that has changed. You will need safety net while doing this—-things for your protection—as others mentioned: vasectomy, post-nup, therapy and full transparency.

Good luck. Please take care of yourself.

I’m sure there are some success stories, but how do you know if the cheater is telling the truth? Some people are expert liars. I’ve read many stories about cheaters going to therapists for years and successfully convincing them that they’ve changed, and then for the affairs to be discovered later. You can rubber stamp the marriage as successful, but you can never be completely sure.

The RIC (reconciliation industrial complex) is a big money-maker.

OP, I posted upthread about my experience (waiting around for the second, or third, d-day). Read "Lose a Cheater, Gain a Life." Yes, the book advocates walking away. However, even if you don't, it gives you some insightful advice and will help with your self-worth.

Check out the related website, chumplady.com.

Anonymous wrote:OP- the problem with affairs is nobody knows the success stories or couples that survived and then thrived because they are dirty, dark guarded secrets. Most people tell nobody but a therapist. You’d be shocked at how many marriages you view as happy and successful were rocked by an affair at some point.

As a therapist, I see it all. Every situation and every human being is different. The “once a cheater” is just not true. People that take deep inventory and WANT to change and put in hard work can and do change. To think otherwise is to say nobody is ever capable of change.

When you listen to the anecdotal evidence realize that you are much more likely to hear the horror stories, the extremes and the cases where one party did not want to be in a marriage. You are not getting the stories of those that faced it head on and came out with a much deeper, living marriage. And, that’s not because there aren’t many of those out there. It is because they are very private matters which people do not disclose to protect their children.

Good luck. Hearing what a friend of friend had happen or a scorned man or woman had happen by no means mean that is your situation. Everyone has different reasons, different traumas, different relationships and personalities.

It’s getting to the heart of your own situation and after deep examination with therapy individually for both of you and after that couples’ you can decide if it is a marriage worth saving, a person that has changed. You will need safety net while doing this—-things for your protection—as others mentioned: vasectomy, post-nup, therapy and full transparency.

Good luck. Please take care of yourself.

I’m sure there are some success stories, but how do you know if the cheater is telling the truth? Some people are expert liars. I’ve read many stories about cheaters going to therapists for years and successfully convincing them that they’ve changed, and then for the affairs to be discovered later. You can rubber stamp the marriage as successful, but you can never be completely sure.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DH stayed with me. It’s really not that big of a deal. It’s not a break the family up situation unless you’re puritanical.

I hope in several hundred years we wipe out monogamy. It’s a plague on fun and our natural proclivities.

I can’t imagine my wife getting railed by somebody else or her having other d@cks in her mouth.

How long was your affair?

You have issues surrounding sex. You sound like you’re harboring some intense hatred of women.

What a load of shite. His reaction is completely normal. You’re really reaching if you read that he hates women. I’m female, and I think you’re either insane or a cheater. Or maybe both.

The state of your relationship prior to infidelity also plays a big role in the likelihood of recovery and rebuilding trust. 56 per cent of men and 34 per cent of women who cheat report being satisfied in their primary relationship. Notice more women that cheat are dissatisfied with their marriage then men who cheat. Those who stay together after adultery for the sake of their kids or just to keep up appearances are more likely to break up.

In many cases, men and women who cheat “want to experience a part of themselves,” which they may have lost in their relationship — like their sense of spontaneity or feeling attractive, for instance.

It may have absolutely nothing to do with their partner. Even so, the person who’s been cheated on will often fixate on the “other woman” or man, wondering who he or she is and if they’re “better.” In so many instances, people affair down.

There’s no evidence that suggests staying with a partner who’s cheated is a sign of low self-respect. In fact, in many cases, I would suggest that the willingness to continue to working through tough times demonstrates the opposite.
Think about it this way, if I came from a divorced family, like Beyoncé did (her parents divorced when she was an adult after her father cheated on her mother), who knows what her family went through in the wake of that divorce.

A lot of people choose to stay because they truly love that person and want to work through things. Women who have the financial means to leave, have their own $ and careers will stay when there is a genuine love and a foundation there.

From Jay-Z (And what I have heard from men that would never do it again): "You know, most people walk away, and the divorce rate is like 50 percent or something ’cause most people can’t see themselves," he said. "The hardest thing is seeing pain on someone’s face that you caused, and then have to deal with yourself."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP- the problem with affairs is nobody knows the success stories or couples that survived and then thrived because they are dirty, dark guarded secrets. Most people tell nobody but a therapist. You’d be shocked at how many marriages you view as happy and successful were rocked by an affair at some point.

As a therapist, I see it all. Every situation and every human being is different. The “once a cheater” is just not true. People that take deep inventory and WANT to change and put in hard work can and do change. To think otherwise is to say nobody is ever capable of change.

When you listen to the anecdotal evidence realize that you are much more likely to hear the horror stories, the extremes and the cases where one party did not want to be in a marriage. You are not getting the stories of those that faced it head on and came out with a much deeper, living marriage. And, that’s not because there aren’t many of those out there. It is because they are very private matters which people do not disclose to protect their children.

Good luck. Hearing what a friend of friend had happen or a scorned man or woman had happen by no means mean that is your situation. Everyone has different reasons, different traumas, different relationships and personalities.

It’s getting to the heart of your own situation and after deep examination with therapy individually for both of you and after that couples’ you can decide if it is a marriage worth saving, a person that has changed. You will need safety net while doing this—-things for your protection—as others mentioned: vasectomy, post-nup, therapy and full transparency.

Good luck. Please take care of yourself.

I agree with this poster that likely more marriages are rocked by this than we realize but what doesn’t make sense to me is the comment that we don’t hear stories of success. Clearly some on here do believe they are successful.

The thing is what is the timeframe for success when people talk about it? Many cheaters will be found out again after some time as they will have gotten better at hiding or haven’t been stressed enough to want to cheat again. Statistics will tell you that cheaters are more likely to cheat again. Obviously you have to figure out whether your situation is the anomaly. Personally, I’ve read too many stories on here where they found that the spouse cheated again to assume he won’t cheat again.

The spouse who stays is, often, judged even more harshly than the cheater. And, who among us wants to be the focus of that type of vitriol and judgement from loved ones and strangers, in addition to what we have already experienced, and continue to experience, at the decision making of our partner? It's a vicious cycle: cheating partner attacks you in the open with someone else and in secret of your understanding of your personal relationship, then public people attack you in the open to your face and in secret behind your back. Classic blame the messenger / object for your (blamers') fear and uncertainty. Think of it, objectively, in physical violence terms. Why did you let that person hit you (unspoken accusation didn't you see it coming, dummy?)? What's wrong with you (ditto you should have known, therefore you are a dummy)? Why didn't you defend yourself, ditto another unspoken accusation: you are really dumb to think you are safe or that I-separate person can help you--therefore, indirectly blamer is saying "get away from me, your problems might become mine, etc etc". None of the attacks feel good, or are welcome, unless you are going to start talking about 'destiny' or 'karma' or 'God's will' etc, etc. Those reframing answers are emotionally distancing and isolating as well.

The layers and layers of recrimination for something that you could not control* is brutal. *No amount of love, sex, food, money, poverty, abstinence, hatred, anything can control another person; manipulate another person, yes--that's why personal integrity and personal boundaries and personal decency matter!

This people always blame the victim. They also have to assign blame because in their mind it makes them feel safe in their own marriage. If somebody that is very pretty, very smart, with a great career and a good sex life is cheated on---then what does that mean for my personal situation? People act like they will catch it. People want to think it is because there was something wrong with the person that was cheated on...and, you are correct, people that stay are judged more harshly than anyone when in fact the hardest thing ever is for two people to go through and dedicate the 2-5 years it is documented to fully recover and rehabilitate a marriage after an affair. The easy way out is to throw up your hand in run. If one party isn't going to do the work and has no motivation to change, by all means RUN. But, if both are determined to dedicate to the marriage, kids and family---it is the hardest road with the biggest reward at the end.

Hillary, Beyonce, Jada, etc have all spoken out about the type of abuse they took from people for their decision to stay.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I stayed. It hasn’t been easy, but we have found happiness after years of therapy and recovery work. I still have triggers and pain surrounding certain dates and events, but the good times outweigh the bad.

Individual and couples therapy was a must for us. Individual therapy for me to help me sort out my feelings, heal from the trauma and pain from betrayal, and learning how to forgive and trust again.

Individual therapy for DH for him to work on why/how he could betray our relationship. He had unresolved childhood trauma that was causing him to sabotage his life. He didn’t think he was worthy of a good life. Like how could anyone love him.

Couples therapy for us to trust again and establish ground rules for our relationship. We have complete transparency- like FaceTiming overnight when he travels out of town, fully open electronics, access to all financial accounts.

DH did a full stop on all cheating and was remorseful for his actions. I don’t think I could stay if he didn’t genuinely realize what he did was terrible. And if he ever cheats again I’m leaving. No more therapy. We’re done.

NP and I could have written this myself. Of course the specifics of our dynamic were different, but these factors were all part of our recovery too (no contact with AP, lots of therapy, remorse, etc.)

In our case, DH and I had been together 23 years when I discovered his long term affair. His betrayal was physical, not emotional, which was easier for me to accept. I had health issues that made sex impossible to enjoy and DH was extremely needy and entitled. We were both selfish and terrible at communicating our needs. Our dynamic was toxic, hardened by many years of mutual neglect. We spent two years in therapy together and separately, sold our house and started fresh 9 years ago. Through therapy we rediscovered a true bond and friendship that had formed the basis for our relationship but had been buried under so much anger and disappointment. It took a long time to heal and reconnect. But we did and we are happy now, including our 13 year old kid, who was the reason we worked so hard to save what seemed to be irreparably broken at the time. DH is a different person now. I am too. And our marriage is stronger than ever. But this evolution only happened because both of us were willing to work like crazy.

Thank you for your honesty. What are your and your spouse's relationships like with your respective parents? Curious because wondering what each of you may have had to give up from your respective pasts, and why--what inspiration or lack of options--allowed both of you to discover you were equally motivated to move forward in the same direction, even without knowing that you were moving in the same direction when you each were at that earlier crossroads.

Congratulations on aligning emotionally, intellectually and physically, and making the independent decisions to prioritize each other for the benefit of everyone involved, including your child, for your shared future!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP- the problem with affairs is nobody knows the success stories or couples that survived and then thrived because they are dirty, dark guarded secrets. Most people tell nobody but a therapist. You’d be shocked at how many marriages you view as happy and successful were rocked by an affair at some point.

As a therapist, I see it all. Every situation and every human being is different. The “once a cheater” is just not true. People that take deep inventory and WANT to change and put in hard work can and do change. To think otherwise is to say nobody is ever capable of change.

When you listen to the anecdotal evidence realize that you are much more likely to hear the horror stories, the extremes and the cases where one party did not want to be in a marriage. You are not getting the stories of those that faced it head on and came out with a much deeper, living marriage. And, that’s not because there aren’t many of those out there. It is because they are very private matters which people do not disclose to protect their children.

Good luck. Hearing what a friend of friend had happen or a scorned man or woman had happen by no means mean that is your situation. Everyone has different reasons, different traumas, different relationships and personalities.

It’s getting to the heart of your own situation and after deep examination with therapy individually for both of you and after that couples’ you can decide if it is a marriage worth saving, a person that has changed. You will need safety net while doing this—-things for your protection—as others mentioned: vasectomy, post-nup, therapy and full transparency.

Good luck. Please take care of yourself.

I agree with this poster that likely more marriages are rocked by this than we realize but what doesn’t make sense to me is the comment that we don’t hear stories of success. Clearly some on here do believe they are successful.

The thing is what is the timeframe for success when people talk about it? Many cheaters will be found out again after some time as they will have gotten better at hiding or haven’t been stressed enough to want to cheat again. Statistics will tell you that cheaters are more likely to cheat again. Obviously you have to figure out whether your situation is the anomaly. Personally, I’ve read too many stories on here where they found that the spouse cheated again to assume he won’t cheat again.

The spouse who stays is, often, judged even more harshly than the cheater. And, who among us wants to be the focus of that type of vitriol and judgement from loved ones and strangers, in addition to what we have already experienced, and continue to experience, at the decision making of our partner? It's a vicious cycle: cheating partner attacks you in the open with someone else and in secret of your understanding of your personal relationship, then public people attack you in the open to your face and in secret behind your back. Classic blame the messenger / object for your (blamers') fear and uncertainty. Think of it, objectively, in physical violence terms. Why did you let that person hit you (unspoken accusation didn't you see it coming, dummy?)? What's wrong with you (ditto you should have known, therefore you are a dummy)? Why didn't you defend yourself, ditto another unspoken accusation: you are really dumb to think you are safe or that I-separate person can help you--therefore, indirectly blamer is saying "get away from me, your problems might become mine, etc etc". None of the attacks feel good, or are welcome, unless you are going to start talking about 'destiny' or 'karma' or 'God's will' etc, etc. Those reframing answers are emotionally distancing and isolating as well.

The layers and layers of recrimination for something that you could not control* is brutal. *No amount of love, sex, food, money, poverty, abstinence, hatred, anything can control another person; manipulate another person, yes--that's why personal integrity and personal boundaries and personal decency matter!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. They no longer work together but I'm just wondering if anyone truly gets over the feelings of intense betrayal and disappointment in a way that a real marriage is actually possible going forward.

I'm so sorry OP. Sending you a big hug and affirmation that you did not cause this situation, and that you cannot fix it for your husband. Whatever you do, don't go to counseling with him. This situation is not about building a bridge between the two of you. You didn't cheat. He did. He can go to counseling by himself and commit himself to figuring out why he thought it was ok to betray you and your/his children. Absolutely you should to go counseling for, and by, yourself if you are seeking emotional support and grounding. The pain is excruciating. Read all the comments you can from people who have posted about surviving. Surviving the pain seems impossible but it's not, and you are your best ally for yourself and your kids. Do what you need to to keep your sanity for your sake and for your kids. Your husband basically is not the person you thought he was. He hid his pain and abused you. He clearly could not stop himself. Maybe he will be able to stop himself, in the future, before treating someone this way, but you continue to be at risk because he does not understand what he did to you.

Counseling can work, but it would be about rebuilding the relationship, not dissecting it. Individual counseling is for dissecting.

The individual work needs to be done and the cheater does need to dissect and understand themselves BEFORE there can be any rebuilding of a marriage. You can’t build with a disordered person who has trauma and/or attachment issues, narcissistic tendencies.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If I found out DH ever cheated it would over. I’d never trust him again. Why stay? I’m not a doormat.

OP, you will get lots of advice like this on this board and from friends and family members if you choose to share. No one can possibly imagine what they would do if confronted with your situation. And everyone’s situation is different from yours. Therapy and introspection will be your best friends in this. And there is no hurry to make a decision. I’m so sorry for your pain. I’ve been there.

Best advice so far. Every affair is different as is every marriage. Take your time, some stay, some leave, no one knows what they would do till it happens to them

I discovered my husband's affairs last September.

We are still "together" but the marriage doesn't feel like it did before. I am deciding what to do.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. They no longer work together but I'm just wondering if anyone truly gets over the feelings of intense betrayal and disappointment in a way that a real marriage is actually possible going forward.

I'm so sorry OP. Sending you a big hug and affirmation that you did not cause this situation, and that you cannot fix it for your husband. Whatever you do, don't go to counseling with him. This situation is not about building a bridge between the two of you. You didn't cheat. He did. He can go to counseling by himself and commit himself to figuring out why he thought it was ok to betray you and your/his children. Absolutely you should to go counseling for, and by, yourself if you are seeking emotional support and grounding. The pain is excruciating. Read all the comments you can from people who have posted about surviving. Surviving the pain seems impossible but it's not, and you are your best ally for yourself and your kids. Do what you need to to keep your sanity for your sake and for your kids. Your husband basically is not the person you thought he was. He hid his pain and abused you. He clearly could not stop himself. Maybe he will be able to stop himself, in the future, before treating someone this way, but you continue to be at risk because he does not understand what he did to you.

Counseling can work, but it would be about rebuilding the relationship, not dissecting it. Individual counseling is for dissecting.

Anonymous wrote:I do believe there is a distinction between people who cheat once and those who are serial cheaters.

If a person cheats, realizes it is something THEY cannot live with--it goes against their morals, they feel true remorse about the pain they have caused others and they invest a lot of time and effort into seeking treatment then they have a chance of not repeating the behavior.

The ones who astound me are the ones who cheat, fall all over themselves apologizing, crying, acting as if they can't go on living.... only to do it all again once things have gone back to "normal." I've known one serial cheater (friend and co-worker) in my life and he is in his late 50's, still unmarried and still at it.

Only the cheater truly knows how they feel inside and how much effort they are willing to put into recovery.

Only the person who was cheated on knows if they can ever truly move forward and live with the cheater.

They are narcissists. They thrive on the secrecy, the attention, the drama, and the idea that two (or more!) people want them (triangulation).

Discovered his affair 5 months ago and we are separating. I went to therapy, considered reconciliation, but at the end of the day it’s just a redline for me. Focus now is mitigating the impact on my children, and taking care of myself.