Anonymous wrote:Someone born male has a tremendous advantage over those born female in some sports. Track and field is a good example. Lung capacity matters a lot. Those born male usually have a lung capacity exceeding that for born females.

In some states, all a high school student has to do to compete is say (s)he identifies with a certain gender. There's a lawsuit in Connecticut brought by born females who lost out to born males and thus were blocked from going forward. For example, for one event, the top 2 finishers in each section go on to the state final. In one section, both of the top 2 finishers were born male. This meant that no born female from that section advanced to the state final. In reality, this means that those young women aren't going to get the benefit of competing in the state finals in college admissions and/or athletic scholarships. So, they are suing.

I agree with them. This is unfair competition. You don't have to hate trans people to think it's unfair.

How much do you have to care about sports for THIS to be the hill you die on? Like, trans* youths are killing themselves at alarming rates, but somehow the debate becomes "what about the high school athletes?"

That is a truly f*cked up set of priorities.

Someone born male has a tremendous advantage over those born female in some sports. Track and field is a good example. Lung capacity matters a lot. Those born male usually have a lung capacity exceeding that for born females.

In some states, all a high school student has to do to compete is say (s)he identifies with a certain gender. There's a lawsuit in Connecticut brought by born females who lost out to born males and thus were blocked from going forward. For example, for one event, the top 2 finishers in each section go on to the state final. In one section, both of the top 2 finishers were born male. This meant that no born female from that section advanced to the state final. In reality, this means that those young women aren't going to get the benefit of competing in the state finals in college admissions and/or athletic scholarships. So, they are suing.

I agree with them. This is unfair competition. You don't have to hate trans people to think it's unfair.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem with JKR is that she is expecting people to read and understand a whole paragraph. Most people's education is limited to comprehending what is tweeted in a sentence.

Her books were long and well written and educated people and children read it. Now, the people who are reading what she wrote are the adults who have the comprehension of understanding only one sentence from a "Tweet".

JKR is absolutely correct IMHO. But the world is saying "TL; DR".

She should get away from Social Media because people are TSTL.

No the problem with JKR is she’s a TERF. All that money and she spends her time being a bigot. Why is she so fixated on trans women anyway?

She is allowed to speak about anything. I don't read it as being against Trans women but more commenting that nuances of how straight women are marginalized is different.

She should get off social media. No one is fixated about anything.

Of course she’s allowed to speak about anything. She’s also free to accept the consequence of that, which is being known as a TERF and having people unfollow and refuse to support her.

Okay. And trans people are free to accept the consequences of their decision to transition to another gender.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It sounds unlikely to you because you’ve never dealt with abusive men.

Women trying to get out of abusive relationships are in a lot of danger. It doesn’t take much imagination to think of scenarios where the abuser could get a friend to go find his wife in a shelter and use the trans-label as a cover. This is exactly what JK Rowling was talking about when she said this destroys safe spaces for women.

How exactly do you think DV shelters work? Do you think anyone can just turn up and walk in?

I think domestic violence shelters have a lot of discretion — however, there’s already been one example where a trans woman (who sounded and presented as male) was not allowed to volunteer with rape victims because it made them feel uncomfortable. The trans woman sued and succeed in shutting down the shelter. This literally “destroyed” a safe space for women.

If you think other shelters haven’t taken notice, you are delusional. For a violent man wanting to locate his wife, the trans exception provides very easy access to formerly safe spaces.

I would really like the PP to provide a link to that story before people just go restating her comments as fact.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem with JKR is that she is expecting people to read and understand a whole paragraph. Most people's education is limited to comprehending what is tweeted in a sentence.

Her books were long and well written and educated people and children read it. Now, the people who are reading what she wrote are the adults who have the comprehension of understanding only one sentence from a "Tweet".

JKR is absolutely correct IMHO. But the world is saying "TL; DR".

She should get away from Social Media because people are TSTL.

No the problem with JKR is she’s a TERF. All that money and she spends her time being a bigot. Why is she so fixated on trans women anyway?

She is allowed to speak about anything. I don't read it as being against Trans women but more commenting that nuances of how straight women are marginalized is different.

She should get off social media. No one is fixated about anything.

Of course she’s allowed to speak about anything. She’s also free to accept the consequence of that, which is being known as a TERF and having people unfollow and refuse to support her.

Anonymous wrote:

It sounds unlikely to you because you’ve never dealt with abusive men.

Women trying to get out of abusive relationships are in a lot of danger. It doesn’t take much imagination to think of scenarios where the abuser could get a friend to go find his wife in a shelter and use the trans-label as a cover. This is exactly what JK Rowling was talking about when she said this destroys safe spaces for women.

How exactly do you think DV shelters work? Do you think anyone can just turn up and walk in?

I think domestic violence shelters have a lot of discretion — however, there’s already been one example where a trans woman (who sounded and presented as male) was not allowed to volunteer with rape victims because it made them feel uncomfortable. The trans woman sued and succeed in shutting down the shelter. This literally “destroyed” a safe space for women.

If you think other shelters haven’t taken notice, you are delusional. For a violent man wanting to locate his wife, the trans exception provides very easy access to formerly safe spaces.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Has anyone else read it? It’s certainly well-thought out. She essentially says she’s spent 3 years studying the concept of trans identity and while she supports it -

a) she doesn’t think the rights of women who sexually identify as female should be diminished,

b) young adults (under 18) should not be allowed gender reassignment surgery and even adults need to have more rigorous standards for completion since its irreversible, and

c) trans being a identity more than a sexuality is subject to groupthink which is why it’s exploded in culture recently.

https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/

To me, this is the equivalent of All Lives Matter. By promoting awareness of and requesting protection for trans women, no one is saying that cis women are worth any less.

Except when it comes to demanding things that might hurt natural born women such as trans women competing in female sports or going into female bathrooms.

Well, cis girls and women just need to accept that. If cis girls lose to trans girls in women's sports, then they need to be good losers. Not bad losers.

Troll

I'm not a troll, I'm stating the only reasonable position to take wrt women's sports and trans women. Some people also think it's problematic, but what's a better alternative? Barring trans athletes, imposing a transition period hiatus, something else? All problematic.

If you are a trans woman, then you are a biological man who has chosen to become a woman and you have your Y DNA and years of male hormones that have shaped your physique. Therefore you are genetically and physically different from biological women. Trans women could always choose to compete against the gender they were born as, or we can create a separate category for trans women.

That is the whole point. Trans women don’t need a whole separate category! They are women too. A trans woman does not diminish any other woman’s womanhood or the struggles she has faced as a woman. There is no need to be exclusionary of trans women and “other” them by demanding they be in their own category. And that is exactly what JKR does when she pops up with this crap every 6 months- claims she’s some great defender of lesbians and women’s rights or whatever by excluding trans women from the narrative. Trans women are women.

But clearly MtoF trans are "other" when it comes to sporting events because they are genetically male and will perform differently from those who are genetically female. And women have been "othered" since forever, so your argument actually holds no weight when you say trans women shouldn't be "othered". If gender and sex aren't binary, we should have more categories, not fewer.

My argument is trans women are women. JKR argues the opposite.

Trans women are genetic males, though. The root of the problem seems to be in conflating biological sex with gender and demanding that trans women are exactly the same as all women. Clearly some things are bio-specific and it doesn't help anyone to pretend otherwise.

This. I support trans rights and if you present as a woman, I will treat you as one. But you will not be biologically female. I don’t know who people think it helps to pretend that trans women are the same as biological women and that trans men are the same as biological men.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem with JKR is that she is expecting people to read and understand a whole paragraph. Most people's education is limited to comprehending what is tweeted in a sentence.

Her books were long and well written and educated people and children read it. Now, the people who are reading what she wrote are the adults who have the comprehension of understanding only one sentence from a "Tweet".

JKR is absolutely correct IMHO. But the world is saying "TL; DR".

She should get away from Social Media because people are TSTL.

No the problem with JKR is she’s a TERF. All that money and she spends her time being a bigot. Why is she so fixated on trans women anyway?

She is allowed to speak about anything. I don't read it as being against Trans women but more commenting that nuances of how straight women are marginalized is different.

She should get off social media. No one is fixated about anything.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Has anyone else read it? It’s certainly well-thought out. She essentially says she’s spent 3 years studying the concept of trans identity and while she supports it -

a) she doesn’t think the rights of women who sexually identify as female should be diminished,

b) young adults (under 18) should not be allowed gender reassignment surgery and even adults need to have more rigorous standards for completion since its irreversible, and

c) trans being a identity more than a sexuality is subject to groupthink which is why it’s exploded in culture recently.

https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/

To me, this is the equivalent of All Lives Matter. By promoting awareness of and requesting protection for trans women, no one is saying that cis women are worth any less.

Except when it comes to demanding things that might hurt natural born women such as trans women competing in female sports or going into female bathrooms.

Well, cis girls and women just need to accept that. If cis girls lose to trans girls in women's sports, then they need to be good losers. Not bad losers.

Troll

I'm not a troll, I'm stating the only reasonable position to take wrt women's sports and trans women. Some people also think it's problematic, but what's a better alternative? Barring trans athletes, imposing a transition period hiatus, something else? All problematic.

If you are a trans woman, then you are a biological man who has chosen to become a woman and you have your Y DNA and years of male hormones that have shaped your physique. Therefore you are genetically and physically different from biological women. Trans women could always choose to compete against the gender they were born as, or we can create a separate category for trans women.

That is the whole point. Trans women don’t need a whole separate category! They are women too. A trans woman does not diminish any other woman’s womanhood or the struggles she has faced as a woman. There is no need to be exclusionary of trans women and “other” them by demanding they be in their own category. And that is exactly what JKR does when she pops up with this crap every 6 months- claims she’s some great defender of lesbians and women’s rights or whatever by excluding trans women from the narrative. Trans women are women.

But clearly MtoF trans are "other" when it comes to sporting events because they are genetically male and will perform differently from those who are genetically female. And women have been "othered" since forever, so your argument actually holds no weight when you say trans women shouldn't be "othered". If gender and sex aren't binary, we should have more categories, not fewer.

My argument is trans women are women. JKR argues the opposite.

Trans women are genetic males, though. The root of the problem seems to be in conflating biological sex with gender and demanding that trans women are exactly the same as all women. Clearly some things are bio-specific and it doesn't help anyone to pretend otherwise.

NP. It really annoys me how people are conflating a person's right to publicly transition and be accepted that way with their right to compete in sports. Even after transitioning, there are still biological differences between men and women. You wouldn't try to hide the fact that you transitioned from a medical doctor, for example, because it might actually be relevant to your diagnosis or treatment options - you're really the sex you started with, biologically. Sports are a biological thing. The fastest and strongest woman in the world will NEVER be as fast or strong as the fastest and strongest man. It's biological.

Honestly, I don't think male athletes should even be able to transition. I don't think they should pass the psych tests. Well, certainly not at the moment when they have huge incentive to transition by knowing that they'd win when maybe they wouldn't otherwise stand a chance. Men should not be able to compete against women in women's sports. Period. I've never been an athlete in my life and that's still obvious to me. It's not "anti-trans" to say so. If anything, it's "anti-women" to say otherwise.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Has anyone else read it? It’s certainly well-thought out. She essentially says she’s spent 3 years studying the concept of trans identity and while she supports it -

a) she doesn’t think the rights of women who sexually identify as female should be diminished,

b) young adults (under 18) should not be allowed gender reassignment surgery and even adults need to have more rigorous standards for completion since its irreversible, and

c) trans being a identity more than a sexuality is subject to groupthink which is why it’s exploded in culture recently.

https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/

To me, this is the equivalent of All Lives Matter. By promoting awareness of and requesting protection for trans women, no one is saying that cis women are worth any less.

Except when it comes to demanding things that might hurt natural born women such as trans women competing in female sports or going into female bathrooms.

Well, cis girls and women just need to accept that. If cis girls lose to trans girls in women's sports, then they need to be good losers. Not bad losers.

Troll

I'm not a troll, I'm stating the only reasonable position to take wrt women's sports and trans women. Some people also think it's problematic, but what's a better alternative? Barring trans athletes, imposing a transition period hiatus, something else? All problematic.

If you are a trans woman, then you are a biological man who has chosen to become a woman and you have your Y DNA and years of male hormones that have shaped your physique. Therefore you are genetically and physically different from biological women. Trans women could always choose to compete against the gender they were born as, or we can create a separate category for trans women.

That is the whole point. Trans women don’t need a whole separate category! They are women too. A trans woman does not diminish any other woman’s womanhood or the struggles she has faced as a woman. There is no need to be exclusionary of trans women and “other” them by demanding they be in their own category. And that is exactly what JKR does when she pops up with this crap every 6 months- claims she’s some great defender of lesbians and women’s rights or whatever by excluding trans women from the narrative. Trans women are women.

But clearly MtoF trans are "other" when it comes to sporting events because they are genetically male and will perform differently from those who are genetically female. And women have been "othered" since forever, so your argument actually holds no weight when you say trans women shouldn't be "othered". If gender and sex aren't binary, we should have more categories, not fewer.

My argument is trans women are women. JKR argues the opposite.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Has anyone else read it? It’s certainly well-thought out. She essentially says she’s spent 3 years studying the concept of trans identity and while she supports it -

a) she doesn’t think the rights of women who sexually identify as female should be diminished,

b) young adults (under 18) should not be allowed gender reassignment surgery and even adults need to have more rigorous standards for completion since its irreversible, and

c) trans being a identity more than a sexuality is subject to groupthink which is why it’s exploded in culture recently.

https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/

To me, this is the equivalent of All Lives Matter. By promoting awareness of and requesting protection for trans women, no one is saying that cis women are worth any less.

Except when it comes to demanding things that might hurt natural born women such as trans women competing in female sports or going into female bathrooms.

Well, cis girls and women just need to accept that. If cis girls lose to trans girls in women's sports, then they need to be good losers. Not bad losers.

Troll

I'm not a troll, I'm stating the only reasonable position to take wrt women's sports and trans women. Some people also think it's problematic, but what's a better alternative? Barring trans athletes, imposing a transition period hiatus, something else? All problematic.

If you are a trans woman, then you are a biological man who has chosen to become a woman and you have your Y DNA and years of male hormones that have shaped your physique. Therefore you are genetically and physically different from biological women. Trans women could always choose to compete against the gender they were born as, or we can create a separate category for trans women.

That is the whole point. Trans women don’t need a whole separate category! They are women too. A trans woman does not diminish any other woman’s womanhood or the struggles she has faced as a woman. There is no need to be exclusionary of trans women and “other” them by demanding they be in their own category. And that is exactly what JKR does when she pops up with this crap every 6 months- claims she’s some great defender of lesbians and women’s rights or whatever by excluding trans women from the narrative. Trans women are women.

But clearly MtoF trans are "other" when it comes to sporting events because they are genetically male and will perform differently from those who are genetically female. And women have been "othered" since forever, so your argument actually holds no weight when you say trans women shouldn't be "othered". If gender and sex aren't binary, we should have more categories, not fewer.

It sounds unlikely to you because you’ve never dealt with abusive men.

Women trying to get out of abusive relationships are in a lot of danger. It doesn’t take much imagination to think of scenarios where the abuser could get a friend to go find his wife in a shelter and use the trans-label as a cover. This is exactly what JK Rowling was talking about when she said this destroys safe spaces for women.

How exactly do you think DV shelters work? Do you think anyone can just turn up and walk in?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How does giving Trans women rights diminish biological women's rights?

We're all in the same group as "female." I don't care if trans women want to join. The more the merrier.

THIS

It doesn't. I think JKR is dumb to make this about the bathrooms. I don't care about trans people advocating for rights at all. They should! They should absolutely do that and feminists should support them as an intersectional partner for advocating for equality.

Changing language so women don't exist is the issue. And it is an issue that trans people would I assume not like either, as they would then not have language to describe their own vision of their gender.

I don't think the issue is about bathroom as much as it is safe space. JK Rowling is a sexual and domestic abuse servivor and supports shelters for women who have been abused. Her concern is that under Scottish law a man can show up and state they are a women no matter if the person has not had any surgery, not taking hormones, not doing anything to identify as a women but merely state they are a woman. Men historically have oppressed women, she is concerned safe spaces for women are being taken away.

This is a specious argument as trans individuals are MULTIPLE times more likely to experience violence for being trans than they are to inflict it.

I am not pp I agree with you but I think what pp/jkr are worried about is a cis-man falsely claiming to be trans and gaining access. (Which does not seem likely, of course.)

It sounds unlikely to you because you’ve never dealt with abusive men.

Women trying to get out of abusive relationships are in a lot of danger. It doesn’t take much imagination to think of scenarios where the abuser could get a friend to go find his wife in a shelter and use the trans-label as a cover. This is exactly what JK Rowling was talking about when she said this destroys safe spaces for women.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How does giving Trans women rights diminish biological women's rights?

We're all in the same group as "female." I don't care if trans women want to join. The more the merrier.

THIS

It doesn't. I think JKR is dumb to make this about the bathrooms. I don't care about trans people advocating for rights at all. They should! They should absolutely do that and feminists should support them as an intersectional partner for advocating for equality.

Changing language so women don't exist is the issue. And it is an issue that trans people would I assume not like either, as they would then not have language to describe their own vision of their gender.

I don't think the issue is about bathroom as much as it is safe space. JK Rowling is a sexual and domestic abuse servivor and supports shelters for women who have been abused. Her concern is that under Scottish law a man can show up and state they are a women no matter if the person has not had any surgery, not taking hormones, not doing anything to identify as a women but merely state they are a woman. Men historically have oppressed women, she is concerned safe spaces for women are being taken away.

This is a specious argument as trans individuals are MULTIPLE times more likely to experience violence for being trans than they are to inflict it.

I am not pp I agree with you but I think what pp/jkr are worried about is a cis-man falsely claiming to be trans and gaining access. (Which does not seem likely, of course.)

That literally never happens!

You’re joking, right?

Men pretending to be trans women to sneak into environments that are dominated by women to abuse them? No, that’s really exceedingly rare.