Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So letting kids draw their own conclusions about their father is abusive but telling them an abusive man ISNT abusive is healthy?

Nah.

No, you don't characterize his behavior towards YOU. If he behaves badly to the kids, yes you have to step in to sort that out. But the fact that he was banging someone while you were married and that destroyed their family? Nope.

Kids need to believe their dad loves them and they can't do that very well if they know their dad thought so little of them as to cheat and leave. We divorced moms need to help kids feel loved by their dads, not pile on with how horrible his rejection of us is.

When the kid is an adult with a family of my own, trust me, he'll figure out that what dad did sucked royally. He'll also understand how difficult it is to be married and have kids, which helps explain dad's behavior. Not justify or excuse, but explain.

OMG, you think these people just bang people and come home and act like the greatest person on earth.

No. They are angry, passive aggressive, rude, judgemental, etc... and the kids have to deal with it. The finding out about the affair is like a balloon being popped from too much air... at first it is jarring but once the toxic person is removed from the home... the kids do better.

Kid don't need to BELIEVE their dad loves them... they need a dad that loves them. LOVE is a VERB, not a feeling. When you rob your kids of time, money and energy... that is not love. Kids need to know that. If you act like that behavior is normal they will marry somebody who is toxic like their dad.

His rejection is not of the wife... they reject their kids stability. Do you know how easy it is to just move out and say, this is not working. Nobody is asking somebody to stay in an unhappy situation, but cheating is a toxic response to stress,.... just like alcohol abuse or drug use.

Waiting until they are 22 and looking back... no.. too late. Talk about the elephant in the room, get therapy, learn how to deal with selfish, toxic people now. Kids will be soooo much better off learning to deal with their dad now.

This is what I explain to my kids... life is stressful. You relieve stress with sleep, meditation, good food, working out, spending time with friends and the love and support of your family. You turn in... when you turn out, you are going to self destruct. You don't blame others, drink, do drugs and f random women to relieve stress.

You are making excuses and it's sad.

But let’s say dad had decided to be more upstanding and productive in his actions and leave the marriage before he cheated. The end result is still the same. The blow to the kids’ stability is still largely the same. That’s why I don’t understand what telling the kids or being bitter accomplishes, other than trying to “win.” You’re still divorced at the end of the day. Yes, the extra drama and anguish should have been avoided, absolutely. But ultimately one partner didn’t want to be in the marriage, however they chose to express that, and that is what it is.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I "poisoned" my kids against their dad and the lying scuzzy other woman. I told them exactly what they did. Kids were appalled and stopped speaking to him. They were high schoolers so I just said so sorry dad missed your game, he was too busy screwing his girlfriend.
Despite all the protestations on the DCUM, it worked great. All our friends took my side.

Ex gave up and just sends the checks now. We are all happier. I hear that marriage is on the ricks now, too!

My mom pretty much did this - poisoned us against our dad, denied him access, eventually he gave up. So she "won". Yay. I can see, with the benefit of adult perspective, that this inflicted severe, long-lasting psychological damage on me and my brother. I have never told her this, and she'd no doubt emit a huge cloud of annoying self-justification if I did. So please, don't do this to your kids, however much it feels like "winning" to you in the short term.

Why shouldn't you take your mom's side? What is wrong with you?

What is WRONG is EXACTLY what you are saying here - demanding that kids "take a side". The other parent is STILL their parent, and will be for the kid's entire life, even if that parent is not a perfect person and even if you hate them.

Act in the interest OF YOUR CHILDREN not of your wounded pride and ego.

It's healthier for kids to know the truth about their parents and separate themselves from narcissism. This BS about respect a person just because they share DNA is not healthy. Act like a good person if you want respect. Sometime kids need to learn healthy boundaries, like staying away from toxic people.

Yes but marriage is complicated and sometimes a bad husband is not a bad father. My mother did this. My father and her had a horrible relationship and he cheating all through the marriage. He left her for another woman and she told us not to speak to him. We didn’t for many years. We made up with him on and off and when we were on, we had issues but he was always there for us. Our mother put us in awful situations - she wouldn’t even speak to him which I understand but we did not deserve to be in the middle. Now we have made up with our father because we have kids of our own. I can tell you unwaveringly if this happened in my life I would never poison my kids because of what my mom did. Unless my husband is a danger to my children, they would see him and have a relationship with him.

You actually don't know what your mom saved your from back when you were a child because you had no relationship. Men mellow with age and it's good he eventually mellowed. Maybe it's because your mom didn't put up with his sh*t and realized he needed to chill if he wanted a relationship with you. Maybe your relationship with him is because of your mom, not despite.

No my mother didn’t save me from his shit. She used us as a weapon to punish him. I don’t think my mother is evil. I know what happened to her was awful. But she needed to get help and get therapy. Not use us to get back at him. Even to this day she obsesses about him.

Is that what your therapist thinks?

Infidelity is a major traumatic betrayal that often causes PTSD. This has only been recognized in the last 10-15 years. I doubt your Mom had any support in the culture or from therapists when this happened to her. In fact, many people, therapists included, probably just blamed her for the infidelity. What looks like "obsessing" to you can actually be "hypervigilance", which is actually a normal reaction to an abnormal situation. Add to that that repeated contact with the perpetrator (your Dad) probably just repeated and extended the trauma over the years.

Perhaps you could have a little more understanding for your Mom? Your notion that she "needed to get help and get therapy" is right, but realize at that time, there probably was no effective help and therapy. I dealt with major repeated infidelity about 15 years ago, and even then there was no effective help available. As a mother, I have to say, looking back, that what our culture actually asks of us, is to continue to expose ourselves to abusive partners while remaining silent about that abuse. It's not easy, nor should it be required - not even for our children. I agree with the other PP, that you really don't know what your Mom protected you from.

BTW, you recognize that a guy who cheats extensively so as to break the marriage is not someone who "was always there for us", right?

Even though I took the high road, it's clear that the kids are struggling but they don't know exactly why because no one has discussed the issues with them. Now that they are in HS, I am starting to discuss more about substance abuse, family history, etc. But, frankly, it's too little too late.

Too late? Let them grow up first! Then expect them to understand adult failings, not before then.

Anonymous wrote:I'm so sorry for you OP. That sounds so very uncomfortable.

As a child of (several) awful divorce here is what I can offer you in terms of advice:

Be kind, be cordial, and be pleasant to her. It will only reflect poorly on you if you are anything but nice.

Don't talk badly about her, your ex, or their relationship to your kids. Don't lie of course, but be neutral as possible. Let your kids draw their own conclusions and opinions. They may end up liking her (a lot). Knowing you hate her guts will make them uncomfortable and close off parts of your relationship with them.

Do your very best to carry on with your life and be happy without regard to them.

+1 as someone whose marriage ended because of my ex's cheating, it doesn't do any good for me to be bitter to my kid.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Equating cheating with hitting a child is completely wrong. I'm married and my husband is not a cheater, so I don't have a personal dog in this fight. But, it does a real disservice to children who have been actually abused to equate the two. There is a reason that cheating does not lead to loss of custody or removal from the home.

Nobody is equating cheating to hitting a child.



Just like nobody equates sexual abuse to hitting a child.... though they are both abuse.

We all know how the courts wrongly give kids to their fathers for visitation to only have them beaten to death or drowned so ... I'm not sure your example is a great one.

Josh Powell killed his wife... but they could not prove it... court gave him visitation for his kids and he blew them up. Still, the mom's murder is unsolved. Come on now.

My point is that physical and mental/emotional abuse is treated differently by the courts than cheating, because cheating is not abuse. Yes, there are tragic times when real abuse can't be proven, but that is a different issue. This person (don't know if it's you or not) IS equating cheating with physical abuse:

it's a form of abuse.... if you don't know that it's sad you learned so little after going through it. So is alcoholism, so is drug abuse, so is holding money over a kids head in return for a relationship.. so is hitting, there are all different types of abuse, cheating is one of them.

Anonymous wrote:So your Ex abused his position of power and slept with a subordinate. Your lucky she didn’t sue him and get him fired. Then you’d have an unemployed Ex with less resources. Since you are happier without Ex then I’d definitely take the high road. In fact, consider thanking Suzy for taking Mike off your hands.

This. My ex cheated in a way that was a reflection of very abusive behavior. I asked him to leave. Although he didn't move in with anyone he was sleeping with (which would have been an extra level of pain for sure), I am so grateful that he finally got married to someone else. It takes him off my hands, and I do not feel responsible for him in any way -- all that is now his wife's problem.

When he was single, I was still the one he would call in an emergency or float things by, and I felt obligated to respond because I didn't want my kids' dad to end up dead or homeless. Now, I can have very minimal contact with him, and I know everything else falls to his wife.

Be happy. Be uber polite, but draw and stick to firm boundaries. Make it clear to people that you are divorced, but beyond that don't discuss.

Anonymous wrote:It's like when a father (or mother) is an alcoholic. You don't pretend they are not drunk. You have to be honest with your kids. If their father/mother is doing something that is destructive to the whole family unit... bring it to light and deal with it. Nothing is good that is kept in the dark, it just is toxic to the children's emotional well being.

Get them therapy so they can say they hate their dad to a therapist instead of you... they will try to protect you and say it's okay or even say it sucks when it doesn't.

Let them have a safe person to talk to.

It's clear in this post how damaged some of the kids of divorce, now adults have become people pleasers ... like they have to or something... like ... I have kids and they "must" know their grandfather... why? It's sad.

My exDH cheated extensively. He had a chance to stop and make amends. I gave him about 2 years in therapy and in the marriage. He was unable to stop. I asked him to leave.

I have never discussed the reason why their Dad and I split up, and I always encouraged his visitation and for the kids to have a good relationship with him. 10 years down the road, I can see that that approach has actually done a lot of damage. It's sort of like hiding a person's alcoholism. Cheating is a reflection of a lot of personal flaws (in our case -- mental illness, substance abuse, family history of substance abuse and mental illness causing poor parenting, etc.). When you cover up these issues, it just causes more problems down the road. Personally, now looking back, I think it would have been better to let the kids know about the causes of the break up, including the infidelity. I could have done so calmly but while still allowing visitation and with more explicit healthy boundaries.

Even though I took the high road, it's clear that the kids are struggling but they don't know exactly why because no one has discussed the issues with them. Now that they are in HS, I am starting to discuss more about substance abuse, family history, etc. But, frankly, it's too little too late.

I agree with the PP about not keeping things in the dark. Kids have a good therapist with whom they can discuss painful aspects of Dad's behavior and get validation. I was always in the position of trying to encourage them to see Dad and encourage them not to see what he was doing as so bad (even though it was quite painful). There is so much pressure not to speak ill of the ex-spouse, but I think there is a way to be honest about problems and still "not speak ill".

Anonymous wrote:You focus on teaching the children that in life there are people who do honor their commitments, and that they have the option of being upstanding like that. Their innocence has been shattered, but they don't have to follow the example of the two people who blew up your family.

+1

OP, I am so sorry you are going through this. I'm going through a divorce right now because of my husband's infidelity and it has been devastating. I am doing the best I can to take the high road: I don't criticize my kids' dad or vent to them about him, but I also want to make sure my daughters know that they deserve to be in relationships with honest, faithful partners.

So your Ex abused his position of power and slept with a subordinate. Your lucky she didn’t sue him and get him fired. Then you’d have an unemployed Ex with less resources. Since you are happier without Ex then I’d definitely take the high road. In fact, consider thanking Suzy for taking Mike off your hands.

I'm so sorry for you OP. That sounds so very uncomfortable.

As a child of (several) awful divorce here is what I can offer you in terms of advice:

Be kind, be cordial, and be pleasant to her. It will only reflect poorly on you if you are anything but nice.

Don't talk badly about her, your ex, or their relationship to your kids. Don't lie of course, but be neutral as possible. Let your kids draw their own conclusions and opinions. They may end up liking her (a lot). Knowing you hate her guts will make them uncomfortable and close off parts of your relationship with them.

Do your very best to carry on with your life and be happy without regard to them.

I never told the kids the reason for the divorce. They were in HS and I did not to badmouth their dad.

Take the high road.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I "poisoned" my kids against their dad and the lying scuzzy other woman. I told them exactly what they did. Kids were appalled and stopped speaking to him. They were high schoolers so I just said so sorry dad missed your game, he was too busy screwing his girlfriend.
Despite all the protestations on the DCUM, it worked great. All our friends took my side.

Ex gave up and just sends the checks now. We are all happier. I hear that marriage is on the ricks now, too!

My mom pretty much did this - poisoned us against our dad, denied him access, eventually he gave up. So she "won". Yay. I can see, with the benefit of adult perspective, that this inflicted severe, long-lasting psychological damage on me and my brother. I have never told her this, and she'd no doubt emit a huge cloud of annoying self-justification if I did. So please, don't do this to your kids, however much it feels like "winning" to you in the short term.

Why shouldn't you take your mom's side? What is wrong with you?

What is WRONG is EXACTLY what you are saying here - demanding that kids "take a side". The other parent is STILL their parent, and will be for the kid's entire life, even if that parent is not a perfect person and even if you hate them.

Act in the interest OF YOUR CHILDREN not of your wounded pride and ego.

It's healthier for kids to know the truth about their parents and separate themselves from narcissism. This BS about respect a person just because they share DNA is not healthy. Act like a good person if you want respect. Sometime kids need to learn healthy boundaries, like staying away from toxic people.

Yes but marriage is complicated and sometimes a bad husband is not a bad father. My mother did this. My father and her had a horrible relationship and he cheating all through the marriage. He left her for another woman and she told us not to speak to him. We didn’t for many years. We made up with him on and off and when we were on, we had issues but he was always there for us. Our mother put us in awful situations - she wouldn’t even speak to him which I understand but we did not deserve to be in the middle. Now we have made up with our father because we have kids of our own. I can tell you unwaveringly if this happened in my life I would never poison my kids because of what my mom did. Unless my husband is a danger to my children, they would see him and have a relationship with him.

You actually don't know what your mom saved your from back when you were a child because you had no relationship. Men mellow with age and it's good he eventually mellowed. Maybe it's because your mom didn't put up with his sh*t and realized he needed to chill if he wanted a relationship with you. Maybe your relationship with him is because of your mom, not despite.

No my mother didn’t save me from his shit. She used us as a weapon to punish him. I don’t think my mother is evil. I know what happened to her was awful. But she needed to get help and get therapy. Not use us to get back at him. Even to this day she obsesses about him.

Is that what your therapist thinks?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I "poisoned" my kids against their dad and the lying scuzzy other woman. I told them exactly what they did. Kids were appalled and stopped speaking to him. They were high schoolers so I just said so sorry dad missed your game, he was too busy screwing his girlfriend.
Despite all the protestations on the DCUM, it worked great. All our friends took my side.

Ex gave up and just sends the checks now. We are all happier. I hear that marriage is on the ricks now, too!

My mom pretty much did this - poisoned us against our dad, denied him access, eventually he gave up. So she "won". Yay. I can see, with the benefit of adult perspective, that this inflicted severe, long-lasting psychological damage on me and my brother. I have never told her this, and she'd no doubt emit a huge cloud of annoying self-justification if I did. So please, don't do this to your kids, however much it feels like "winning" to you in the short term.

Why shouldn't you take your mom's side? What is wrong with you?

What is WRONG is EXACTLY what you are saying here - demanding that kids "take a side". The other parent is STILL their parent, and will be for the kid's entire life, even if that parent is not a perfect person and even if you hate them.

Act in the interest OF YOUR CHILDREN not of your wounded pride and ego.

It's healthier for kids to know the truth about their parents and separate themselves from narcissism. This BS about respect a person just because they share DNA is not healthy. Act like a good person if you want respect. Sometime kids need to learn healthy boundaries, like staying away from toxic people.

Yes but marriage is complicated and sometimes a bad husband is not a bad father. My mother did this. My father and her had a horrible relationship and he cheating all through the marriage. He left her for another woman and she told us not to speak to him. We didn’t for many years. We made up with him on and off and when we were on, we had issues but he was always there for us. Our mother put us in awful situations - she wouldn’t even speak to him which I understand but we did not deserve to be in the middle. Now we have made up with our father because we have kids of our own. I can tell you unwaveringly if this happened in my life I would never poison my kids because of what my mom did. Unless my husband is a danger to my children, they would see him and have a relationship with him.

You actually don't know what your mom saved your from back when you were a child because you had no relationship. Men mellow with age and it's good he eventually mellowed. Maybe it's because your mom didn't put up with his sh*t and realized he needed to chill if he wanted a relationship with you. Maybe your relationship with him is because of your mom, not despite.

No my mother didn’t save me from his shit. She used us as a weapon to punish him. I don’t think my mother is evil. I know what happened to her was awful. But she needed to get help and get therapy. Not use us to get back at him. Even to this day she obsesses about him.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So letting kids draw their own conclusions about their father is abusive but telling them an abusive man ISNT abusive is healthy?

Nah.

No, you don't characterize his behavior towards YOU. If he behaves badly to the kids, yes you have to step in to sort that out. But the fact that he was banging someone while you were married and that destroyed their family? Nope.

Kids need to believe their dad loves them and they can't do that very well if they know their dad thought so little of them as to cheat and leave. We divorced moms need to help kids feel loved by their dads, not pile on with how horrible his rejection of us is.

When the kid is an adult with a family of my own, trust me, he'll figure out that what dad did sucked royally. He'll also understand how difficult it is to be married and have kids, which helps explain dad's behavior. Not justify or excuse, but explain.

OMG, you think these people just bang people and come home and act like the greatest person on earth.

No. They are angry, passive aggressive, rude, judgemental, etc... and the kids have to deal with it. The finding out about the affair is like a balloon being popped from too much air... at first it is jarring but once the toxic person is removed from the home... the kids do better.

Kid don't need to BELIEVE their dad loves them... they need a dad that loves them. LOVE is a VERB, not a feeling. When you rob your kids of time, money and energy... that is not love. Kids need to know that. If you act like that behavior is normal they will marry somebody who is toxic like their dad.

His rejection is not of the wife... they reject their kids stability. Do you know how easy it is to just move out and say, this is not working. Nobody is asking somebody to stay in an unhappy situation, but cheating is a toxic response to stress,.... just like alcohol abuse or drug use.

Waiting until they are 22 and looking back... no.. too late. Talk about the elephant in the room, get therapy, learn how to deal with selfish, toxic people now. Kids will be soooo much better off learning to deal with their dad now.

This is what I explain to my kids... life is stressful. You relieve stress with sleep, meditation, good food, working out, spending time with friends and the love and support of your family. You turn in... when you turn out, you are going to self destruct. You don't blame others, drink, do drugs and f random women to relieve stress.

You are making excuses and it's sad.

Anonymous wrote:So letting kids draw their own conclusions about their father is abusive but telling them an abusive man ISNT abusive is healthy?

Nah.

No, you don't characterize his behavior towards YOU. If he behaves badly to the kids, yes you have to step in to sort that out. But the fact that he was banging someone while you were married and that destroyed their family? Nope.

Kids need to believe their dad loves them and they can't do that very well if they know their dad thought so little of them as to cheat and leave. We divorced moms need to help kids feel loved by their dads, not pile on with how horrible his rejection of us is.

When the kid is an adult with a family of my own, trust me, he'll figure out that what dad did sucked royally. He'll also understand how difficult it is to be married and have kids, which helps explain dad's behavior. Not justify or excuse, but explain.