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Anonymous wrote:You do not have to wrap your head around it. You just have to have faith. That is the mystery. Don't be a "Doubting Thomas," who must see to believe.

Many of us can't abandon reason in that fashion. If faith requires abandoning research, logic, and scientific reality, then that's a leap I cannot make. Just not wired for faith, I guess.

Then why don't you look at it this way: do some research on it? Read up on the doctors of the church, church doctrine, history, etc. Ask your local pastor for some book suggestions. Dig deep. Delve. Your faith will grow, I guarantee it.

For many of us, this is exactly what turned us away -- thinking about it, digging deep, as you say.

Bart Ehrmann, one of the leading biblical scholars alive, loved his religion and the bible so much he decided to dig deeper than most -- he learned ancient Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic, and started reading source documents. Textual criticism revealed to him that not only are the things therein not true, but there were even legion translation and transcription errors rendering literal biblical interpretation worthless. While he does believe a historical Jesus existed he is no longer a Christian and identifies as Agnostic and Atheist. That's what a true deep dive generally gets you.

Want to "dive deep"? Read his Misquoting Jesus. I did.

Ehrman has been criticized by hundreds of scholars for making unsupported claims, ignoring things that don’t fit his theories, and so much more. He’s a pop scholar who makes $$$ with book titles like “Jesus, Interrupted,” and his “work” is sensationalized to that end.

If you want to read serious, academic, thoughtful critiques of early Christianity, read Borg, Crossan, and others.

Really? Haven't looked up Borg yet, but this is from the Wikipedia article on Crossan: "His work is controversial, portraying the Second Coming as a late corruption of Jesus' message and saying that Jesus' divinity is metaphorical.[2]" Ehrman is the most scholarly and credible of all of these.

So you rely on Wikipedia and ignore how controversial Ehrman’s theories are (not to mention how controversial Ehrman’s methods are). That says all we need to know about your standards.

ALL these writers are controversial. Some have a more solid foundation than Ehrman.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You do not have to wrap your head around it. You just have to have faith. That is the mystery. Don't be a "Doubting Thomas," who must see to believe.

Many of us can't abandon reason in that fashion. If faith requires abandoning research, logic, and scientific reality, then that's a leap I cannot make. Just not wired for faith, I guess.

Then why don't you look at it this way: do some research on it? Read up on the doctors of the church, church doctrine, history, etc. Ask your local pastor for some book suggestions. Dig deep. Delve. Your faith will grow, I guarantee it.

For many of us, this is exactly what turned us away -- thinking about it, digging deep, as you say.

Bart Ehrmann, one of the leading biblical scholars alive, loved his religion and the bible so much he decided to dig deeper than most -- he learned ancient Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic, and started reading source documents. Textual criticism revealed to him that not only are the things therein not true, but there were even legion translation and transcription errors rendering literal biblical interpretation worthless. While he does believe a historical Jesus existed he is no longer a Christian and identifies as Agnostic and Atheist. That's what a true deep dive generally gets you.

Want to "dive deep"? Read his Misquoting Jesus. I did.

Ehrman has been criticized by hundreds of scholars for making unsupported claims, ignoring things that don’t fit his theories, and so much more. He’s a pop scholar who makes $$$ with book titles like “Jesus, Interrupted,” and his “work” is sensationalized to that end.

If you want to read serious, academic, thoughtful critiques of early Christianity, read Borg, Crossan, and others.

Yeah, like they're incredibly jealous of his popular success.

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Anonymous wrote:You do not have to wrap your head around it. You just have to have faith. That is the mystery. Don't be a "Doubting Thomas," who must see to believe.

Many of us can't abandon reason in that fashion. If faith requires abandoning research, logic, and scientific reality, then that's a leap I cannot make. Just not wired for faith, I guess.

Then why don't you look at it this way: do some research on it? Read up on the doctors of the church, church doctrine, history, etc. Ask your local pastor for some book suggestions. Dig deep. Delve. Your faith will grow, I guarantee it.

For many of us, this is exactly what turned us away -- thinking about it, digging deep, as you say.

Bart Ehrmann, one of the leading biblical scholars alive, loved his religion and the bible so much he decided to dig deeper than most -- he learned ancient Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic, and started reading source documents. Textual criticism revealed to him that not only are the things therein not true, but there were even legion translation and transcription errors rendering literal biblical interpretation worthless. While he does believe a historical Jesus existed he is no longer a Christian and identifies as Agnostic and Atheist. That's what a true deep dive generally gets you.

Want to "dive deep"? Read his Misquoting Jesus. I did.

Ehrman has been criticized by hundreds of scholars for making unsupported claims, ignoring things that don’t fit his theories, and so much more. He’s a pop scholar who makes $$$ with book titles like “Jesus, Interrupted,” and his “work” is sensationalized to that end.

If you want to read serious, academic, thoughtful critiques of early Christianity, read Borg, Crossan, and others.

Really? Haven't looked up Borg yet, but this is from the Wikipedia article on Crossan: "His work is controversial, portraying the Second Coming as a late corruption of Jesus' message and saying that Jesus' divinity is metaphorical.[2]" Ehrman is the most scholarly and credible of all of these.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You do not have to wrap your head around it. You just have to have faith. That is the mystery. Don't be a "Doubting Thomas," who must see to believe.

Many of us can't abandon reason in that fashion. If faith requires abandoning research, logic, and scientific reality, then that's a leap I cannot make. Just not wired for faith, I guess.

Then why don't you look at it this way: do some research on it? Read up on the doctors of the church, church doctrine, history, etc. Ask your local pastor for some book suggestions. Dig deep. Delve. Your faith will grow, I guarantee it.

For many of us, this is exactly what turned us away -- thinking about it, digging deep, as you say.

Bart Ehrmann, one of the leading biblical scholars alive, loved his religion and the bible so much he decided to dig deeper than most -- he learned ancient Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic, and started reading source documents. Textual criticism revealed to him that not only are the things therein not true, but there were even legion translation and transcription errors rendering literal biblical interpretation worthless. While he does believe a historical Jesus existed he is no longer a Christian and identifies as Agnostic and Atheist. That's what a true deep dive generally gets you.

Want to "dive deep"? Read his Misquoting Jesus. I did.

Ehrman has been criticized by hundreds of scholars for making unsupported claims, ignoring things that don’t fit his theories, and so much more. He’s a pop scholar who makes $$$ with book titles like “Jesus, Interrupted,” and his “work” is sensationalized to that end.

If you want to read serious, academic, thoughtful critiques of early Christianity, read Borg, Crossan, and others.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:You do not have to wrap your head around it. You just have to have faith. That is the mystery. Don't be a "Doubting Thomas," who must see to believe.

This advice only applies to those who believe they they will burn in hell if they don't accept Jesus as their savior.

I think most Christians believe that not being with God IS being in Hell. It’s not like God sends people to Hell. God wants people to be with Him. People choose to go to Hell rather than be with and accept God.

Why did he make such a place, then? He could have let bad christians or non-believers just cease to exist when they die. Instead he created a fiery hell for them to go to for eternity.

I don’t think a lot of Christians believe in a firery Hell. If anything, it is a cold place away from Gods love.

How do you know this?

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You do not have to wrap your head around it. You just have to have faith. That is the mystery. Don't be a "Doubting Thomas," who must see to believe.

This advice only applies to those who believe they they will burn in hell if they don't accept Jesus as their savior.

I think most Christians believe that not being with God IS being in Hell. It’s not like God sends people to Hell. God wants people to be with Him. People choose to go to Hell rather than be with and accept God.

Why did he make such a place, then? He could have let bad christians or non-believers just cease to exist when they die. Instead he created a fiery hell for them to go to for eternity.

I don’t think a lot of Christians believe in a firery Hell. If anything, it is a cold place away from Gods love.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You do not have to wrap your head around it. You just have to have faith. That is the mystery. Don't be a "Doubting Thomas," who must see to believe.

This advice only applies to those who believe they they will burn in hell if they don't accept Jesus as their savior.

I think most Christians believe that not being with God IS being in Hell. It’s not like God sends people to Hell. God wants people to be with Him. People choose to go to Hell rather than be with and accept God.

Why did he make such a place, then? He could have let bad christians or non-believers just cease to exist when they die. Instead he created a fiery hell for them to go to for eternity.

Perhaps it's that God loves you only if you love him back (i.e., believe in him) and hates you so much if you don't, that he makes you suffer for eternity.

In a human relationship that would be like forcing someone who had spurned your advances to live in pain and penury. But humans don't have such power. Only God offers and enforces eternal reward or punishment.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You do not have to wrap your head around it. You just have to have faith. That is the mystery. Don't be a "Doubting Thomas," who must see to believe.

This advice only applies to those who believe they they will burn in hell if they don't accept Jesus as their savior.

I think most Christians believe that not being with God IS being in Hell. It’s not like God sends people to Hell. God wants people to be with Him. People choose to go to Hell rather than be with and accept God.

Why did he make such a place, then? He could have let bad christians or non-believers just cease to exist when they die. Instead he created a fiery hell for them to go to for eternity.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You do not have to wrap your head around it. You just have to have faith. That is the mystery. Don't be a "Doubting Thomas," who must see to believe.

This advice only applies to those who believe they they will burn in hell if they don't accept Jesus as their savior.

I think most Christians believe that not being with God IS being in Hell. It’s not like God sends people to Hell. God wants people to be with Him. People choose to go to Hell rather than be with and accept God.

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Anonymous wrote:If you don't believe in anything, what is life to you?

A chance to experience some highs and thrills before you decompose?

Pretty much. Also a chance to give to others, learn and see as much as I can, and try make the world a better place at least in my little corner of it.

I've never understood the concept of doing good to gain some eternal reward. That just makes no sense to me at all.

Are you unaware that this is not what Christianity teaches?

No. Because most atheist/agnostics stopped learning about religion when they first started to question it around age nine or ten. If they ever learned anything about it at all. So they think that adults believe in the way that we teach religion to children. That’s why they think religious people are a bunch of morons.
It’s like if you stopped reading anything new in second grade, and you believed that people who love to read are reading the equivalent of Frog and Toad and Mrs Pigglewiggle. Of course you would say things like, “I learn about life from experiencing it. Reading about it from the eyes of some random author is a waste of time. I just don’t think there is much to be learned from magical fictional characters.”

Not true. Atheists/agnostics are the most knowledgeable about religion (along with Mormons) -- because they tend to study it thoroughly before giving it up. There are a few child atheists, but most don't quit religion until they are adults and can make decisions for themselves.

I think that this path is very rare. Not many people continue to believe throughout adolescence and young adulthood, then get very interested in religion and start reading and learning more, then discover that it is all bunk and give it up as mature adults.

I really think that nearly everyone starts to question around 10 or so. The questioning continues for a lot of people into adolescence. Then in early adulthood, many people get a little lazy about going to church when their parents aren't there anymore. Then as people get married and have children, they either wander back into the church, or they decide they are athiest/agnostic. Only the people who wander back in begin to really learn about it as adults.

You may think that, but it's an opinion that is not supported by the statistics provided. Anecdotally, I know mnay people, including myself, who did not question relligion as a child -- didn't think about it much - just did it. A lot of kids are that way about a lot of things. They go along with the status quo and only consider options when they are older and more independent.

https://lifewayresearch.com/2007/08/07/reasons-18-to-22-year-olds-drop-out-of-church/

This is just from a quick google search, but it does show that a lot of people stop attending as soon as they don’t live with their parents any longer, then return later.

It's important to note that "Lifeway research" is a Christian firm conducting research for Christian interests. It's tagline is "Biblical solutions for life". Not to say its findings are necessarily skewed, but the findings are limited to the research questions that this Christian-based firm or want to ask or that churches who pay for the research want to know.

Here's the most interesting finding in my opinion:
The final category of reasons, “religious, ethical or political beliefs,” contributed to the departure of 52 percent of church dropouts.
Two reasons for leaving reflect this category: “I disagreed with the church’s stance on political or social issues” (18 percent) and “I was only going to church to please others” (17 percent).

18% and 17% obviously don't add up to 52%, so one wonders why the other 17% were left out and what their reasons were. I thought perhaps it was "because I longer believe" and that the church-based researchers did not want to report that.

To find out, I went to the original research:
http://lifewayresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Church-Dropouts_How-Many-Leave-Church-and-Why-8.07.2007.pdf

There is an analysis of reasons for leaving on page 10:
- Disagreed with the church's stance on political/social issues 18%
- Chose to spend more time with friends outside the church 17%
- Was only going to church to please others 17%

So, not only did they leave out and misrepresent some information in the summary, they didn’t even ask a specific question about non-belief – which is an obvious reason for not going to church.

It's likely that some in the 3 categories listed also don’t believe and that the researchers just didn’t want to consider non-belief as an option.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You do not have to wrap your head around it. You just have to have faith. That is the mystery. Don't be a "Doubting Thomas," who must see to believe.

This advice only applies to those who believe they they will burn in hell if they don't accept Jesus as their savior.

Right. Some of us don't want to turn our brains off and just blindly accept this stuff. As George Harrison said: if there's a god I want to experience him and see him. Otherwise why blindly accept something?

I personally want to reason through all of this and come to a conclusion that makes sense to me. For me, that means rejecting basically all doctrines because I've experienced zero proof that they're real. The few things that make sense to me from religions come from Buddhism and Hinduism (meditation, yoga, and the idea that getting too attached to material possessions is a recipe for suffering, so you should concentrate on more lasting things like love, compassion, and working towards a peaceful world).

I've had a lot of experiences that strongly suggest to me that people have souls that don't disappear when we die, so I personally take on board the idea of an everlasting soul (and perhaps reincarnation, although I'm less sure of that one).

I could really take or leave the rest of it.

Anonymous wrote:You do not have to wrap your head around it. You just have to have faith. That is the mystery. Don't be a "Doubting Thomas," who must see to believe.

This advice only applies to those who believe they they will burn in hell if they don't accept Jesus as their savior.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You do not have to wrap your head around it. You just have to have faith. That is the mystery. Don't be a "Doubting Thomas," who must see to believe.

Many of us can't abandon reason in that fashion. If faith requires abandoning research, logic, and scientific reality, then that's a leap I cannot make. Just not wired for faith, I guess.

Then why don't you look at it this way: do some research on it? Read up on the doctors of the church, church doctrine, history, etc. Ask your local pastor for some book suggestions. Dig deep. Delve. Your faith will grow, I guarantee it.

For many of us, this is exactly what turned us away -- thinking about it, digging deep, as you say.

Bart Ehrmann, one of the leading biblical scholars alive, loved his religion and the bible so much he decided to dig deeper than most -- he learned ancient Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic, and started reading source documents. Textual criticism revealed to him that not only are the things therein not true, but there were even legion translation and transcription errors rendering literal biblical interpretation worthless. While he does believe a historical Jesus existed he is no longer a Christian and identifies as Agnostic and Atheist. That's what a true deep dive generally gets you.

Want to "dive deep"? Read his Misquoting Jesus. I did.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You do not have to wrap your head around it. You just have to have faith. That is the mystery. Don't be a "Doubting Thomas," who must see to believe.

Many of us can't abandon reason in that fashion. If faith requires abandoning research, logic, and scientific reality, then that's a leap I cannot make. Just not wired for faith, I guess.

Then why don't you look at it this way: do some research on it? Read up on the doctors of the church, church doctrine, history, etc. Ask your local pastor for some book suggestions. Dig deep. Delve. Your faith will grow, I guarantee it.

I have. See posts above. I'm well versed in Christianity and respect those who do believe. Just not a believer myself.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You do not have to wrap your head around it. You just have to have faith. That is the mystery. Don't be a "Doubting Thomas," who must see to believe.

Many of us can't abandon reason in that fashion. If faith requires abandoning research, logic, and scientific reality, then that's a leap I cannot make. Just not wired for faith, I guess.

Then why don't you look at it this way: do some research on it? Read up on the doctors of the church, church doctrine, history, etc. Ask your local pastor for some book suggestions. Dig deep. Delve. Your faith will grow, I guarantee it.