Anonymous
Post 01/27/2023 15:55     Subject: does athletics dominate SLAC's like Amherst, Bowdoin, etc?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Williams grad. I felt out of place NOT being an athlete. Especially true freshman year when the teams had been together already for two weeks. I started a sport just to try to make some friends. Honestly it was a bit hard.


If I may ask, where do you wish that you had attended college/university if you were accepted to any school of interest to you ?

I ask because I think that Williams College deserves its top ranking among LACs, and I am attracted to many aspects of the school, but I also attended a rural LAC and really regret the experience (even though I was very athletic).



I should have gone to somewhere closer to DC, with more options than drinking for fun. Bryn Mawr, Haverford, Swarthmore? I was rejected from Princeton. The rural aspect of Williams has some shades of Deliverance in the winter. It can be pretty isolating without a strong friend group.


As the parent of a current Williams student, no, it's not like Deliverance. Not at all. Have you ever been Williamstown?

I do think it's important that a Williams student be able to enjoy the outdoors, appreciate the natural beauty of the setting, and not hate winter. My DC is more a city mouse than a country mouse, but he made a conscious decision to go to college in a rural setting, knowing that for his working life he'd probably be living in a big city.

ANY college experience is going to be "isolating" without a friend group. Of my 4 kids' college experiences, Williams made the most effort to ensure that freshman have a good social support system. I will say, though, that my DC, who works within that system, has noticed that this year's (2022) freshmen are more immature and less confident - they needed more "hand holding." DC thinks that may be because of the Covid school disruptions - but that's another discussion.


I'd be really interested in hearing more about your son's experience. My DD is putting together her college list and she's intrigued by Williams. She loves the outdoors (she loves to ski, we're a pretty outdoorsy family all things considered) but she is a city mouse in all senses of the word - born and raised on the UWS of Manhattan. Like I said she's intrigued by spending her college years in a place so different from NYC but it would be quite different! So I'm curious to know how your son settled in.


NP - My DD is not at Williams (she's at Amherst) also loves the city (born and raised in UES NYC). She is an athlete but most of her friends are actually not varsity athletes. I guess it helps that she has interests outside of sports. I realize that Amherst MA is not the same as Williamstown MA but they are probably more similar than to NYC. Anyway, she likes the outdoors and to hike (Holyoke Mountain range). As others have said, she will probably end up in a large city the rest of her life so wanted to experience going to a non-urban college. She feels that the so-called athlete/non-athlete divide is overblown and since varsity athletes are still in the minority (approx 30%) and as there are so many clubs you can join, non-varsity students still develop close friends both with athletes and with athletes.


Most of the comments that I read about elite LACs which deny that there is an athlete/non-athlete divide are posted by parents of athletes.


That makes sense. You do realize that DCUM stands for DC Urban Moms (and Dads). Doubt many currently college students on this site


The contrast is parents of athletes versus non-athletes, not parents versus students, silly!
Anonymous
Post 01/27/2023 15:25     Subject: Re:does athletics dominate SLAC's like Amherst, Bowdoin, etc?
I mean, with the UMC’s hyper-pursuit of admission “bumps” these scholar-athletes have to end up somewhere-the somewhere being at excellent to good-ish slacs.
Anonymous
Post 01/27/2023 15:22     Subject: does athletics dominate SLAC's like Amherst, Bowdoin, etc?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Amherst grad here. Academics by far dominates over athletics. Not even close. Hell, the a capella group at Amherst is more popular than the athletic teams.


One of my coworkers graduated from Amherst in 2018 and he regretted going there because of the  cost.  He didn't get any discount and had to pay in-full.  He graduated with 150K in student loan debt for a bachelor degree.  He is currently making about 90K/year with a monthly payment of 1,800 in student loans. He could have gotten the same degree from UVA for less than the cost and without student loans.


A lot of anecdotal accounts. Some like it, and some don't. True for all colleges. Just do your best to find the best fit. Granted, it may be a leap of faith in some cases but most students adapt - its a part of life.
Anonymous
Post 01/27/2023 15:21     Subject: does athletics dominate SLAC's like Amherst, Bowdoin, etc?
Didn’t read the whole thread (sorry! Perusing DCUM while I eat lunch), but I went to Wesleyan which is a SLAC not dominated by sports. There is a crowd of people who do sports and they tended to be friends; however, the school was quite a bit larger than the typical SLAC, and as a result the athletes didn’t have outsized influence.

The academics were really strong. To the point where we were all holed up in the library for much of weekend - there was no time to go road-tripping! The New Yorkers complained bitterly about missing the city, but we made do with the restaurants in Middletown and on-campus activities. I actually played a sport for one season, but dropped it because it conflicted with the organic chemistry lab section that I preferred and I started an independent research project in a lab. My friends all agreed that this was the right call.

Anonymous
Post 01/27/2023 15:16     Subject: does athletics dominate SLAC's like Amherst, Bowdoin, etc?
Anonymous wrote:Amherst grad here. Academics by far dominates over athletics. Not even close. Hell, the a capella group at Amherst is more popular than the athletic teams.


One of my coworkers graduated from Amherst in 2018 and he regretted going there because of the  cost.  He didn't get any discount and had to pay in-full.  He graduated with 150K in student loan debt for a bachelor degree.  He is currently making about 90K/year with a monthly payment of 1,800 in student loans. He could have gotten the same degree from UVA for less than the cost and without student loans.
Anonymous
Post 01/27/2023 15:10     Subject: does athletics dominate SLAC's like Amherst, Bowdoin, etc?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:To PP: how snarky. I lived in Williamstown attending Williams for 4 years. So… yes. Some love it. But when the days are gray for months, it is still muddy snow in April, and wind chill is -20, some people feel that a strong friend group would be helpful. As a freshman with no sport, I personally had a hard time generating that friend group. That was my only point.



+1 A bit defensive; zero empathy.

DD attends SLAC. Academically, everything we hoped for: STEM research position in her major and small seminar classes first year, all the instructors in the dance department know and like her. Socially it was difficult. Going in we knew varsity athletes averaged 25% of the school, but really surprised how fast people cliqued up: athletes, rich kids, URMs, LGBTQ+, first gen/low income. Small pool of non-attached kids spread out over campus. She has friends, but no posse or BFF. I think a bigger school offers a tradeoff with more people to meet but probably fewer academic opportunities.


Even 20 years ago, those groups cliqued fast because affinity groups were part of orientation and started opening their doors as soon as freshman were on campus


Were you a social outcast?


No, I was an athlete, but I have friends that I met in subsequent years that complained about it.


Athletes can be social outcasts too. Also, not everyone needs to have many friends. Some prefer to be alone or have very few friends.
Anonymous
Post 01/27/2023 14:55     Subject: Re:does athletics dominate SLAC's like Amherst, Bowdoin, etc?
If someone is really worried about his issue, just consider avoiding SLACs that with football and hockey.
Anonymous
Post 01/27/2023 14:45     Subject: does athletics dominate SLAC's like Amherst, Bowdoin, etc?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:To PP: how snarky. I lived in Williamstown attending Williams for 4 years. So… yes. Some love it. But when the days are gray for months, it is still muddy snow in April, and wind chill is -20, some people feel that a strong friend group would be helpful. As a freshman with no sport, I personally had a hard time generating that friend group. That was my only point.



+1 A bit defensive; zero empathy.

DD attends SLAC. Academically, everything we hoped for: STEM research position in her major and small seminar classes first year, all the instructors in the dance department know and like her. Socially it was difficult. Going in we knew varsity athletes averaged 25% of the school, but really surprised how fast people cliqued up: athletes, rich kids, URMs, LGBTQ+, first gen/low income. Small pool of non-attached kids spread out over campus. She has friends, but no posse or BFF. I think a bigger school offers a tradeoff with more people to meet but probably fewer academic opportunities.


Even 20 years ago, those groups cliqued fast because affinity groups were part of orientation and started opening their doors as soon as freshman were on campus


Were you a social outcast?


No, I was an athlete, but I have friends that I met in subsequent years that complained about it.
Anonymous
Post 01/27/2023 14:44     Subject: Re:does athletics dominate SLAC's like Amherst, Bowdoin, etc?
Anonymous wrote:An aspect that I enjoyed at a large university but did not experience at my decent sized rural LAC was the option to be anonymous at times.

At the large university, I liked that I could meet new people each day--or that I could be with a group of friends & acquaintances. Experiencing a lot of diversity allowed me to grow and to experience perspectives that I did not encounter at my LAC (which was rich, white, preppy, cliquey, and very athletic with social activities centered around drinking). I simply did not need to be around others who were just like me in order to feel safe, secure, and comfortable; I enjoyed that excitement of being able to grow each day through new & sometimes uncomfortable encounters. Options. Lots of options & differences (diversity) made the large university environment exciting to me.

OP: At several LACs--especially some well known SLACs--the term NARP is used in a non-complementary fashion. NARP = non-athlete, regular person. (Very commonly used at Middlebury College, for example. And I have read and have been told that it is not an uncommon term at other NESCACs as well.)[b]

To be sure, there are sub-groups and cliques at all schools large & small. The difference is in the size. There are more options at larger schools and, if commonality is what one seeks, there are more individuals within any subgroup with which one prefers to identify & associate.[/quote

Actually, NARP is used self-referentially - -and with tongue firmly planted in cheek -- by many non-athletes at Midd, including my athlete-DD's bestie there, who is not at all athletic.
Anonymous
Post 01/27/2023 14:42     Subject: does athletics dominate SLAC's like Amherst, Bowdoin, etc?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Williams grad. I felt out of place NOT being an athlete. Especially true freshman year when the teams had been together already for two weeks. I started a sport just to try to make some friends. Honestly it was a bit hard.


If I may ask, where do you wish that you had attended college/university if you were accepted to any school of interest to you ?

I ask because I think that Williams College deserves its top ranking among LACs, and I am attracted to many aspects of the school, but I also attended a rural LAC and really regret the experience (even though I was very athletic).



I should have gone to somewhere closer to DC, with more options than drinking for fun. Bryn Mawr, Haverford, Swarthmore? I was rejected from Princeton. The rural aspect of Williams has some shades of Deliverance in the winter. It can be pretty isolating without a strong friend group.


Thank you for responding to my question.

I, too, was rejected by Princeton and I wish that I had attended another school with more social options that did not involve drinking.
[b]

NP -- I don't know if this is any consolation, but my DH went to Princeton and his experience was that people there drank a ton (and still do at reunions). He got a great education at Princeton and has good friends from his college years, but he found suburban NJ pretty dull.
Anonymous
Post 01/27/2023 14:36     Subject: does athletics dominate SLAC's like Amherst, Bowdoin, etc?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Curious, how many of the kids/athletes at Amherst, Williams, etc. come from boarding school? Looking at the roster in DS's sport, the teams appear to be compromised of mostly boarding school kids.


This is of interest to me as well.

If I may ask, which boarding schools do you see represented & , if willing to disclose, at which LAC ? TIA


I have an ice hockey player, and many of the NESCAC schools have a lot of kids on their roster from boarding school. Ice hockey is a different animal, so this is probably not relevant to most people.
Anonymous
Post 01/27/2023 14:35     Subject: does athletics dominate SLAC's like Amherst, Bowdoin, etc?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Williams grad. I felt out of place NOT being an athlete. Especially true freshman year when the teams had been together already for two weeks. I started a sport just to try to make some friends. Honestly it was a bit hard.


If I may ask, where do you wish that you had attended college/university if you were accepted to any school of interest to you ?

I ask because I think that Williams College deserves its top ranking among LACs, and I am attracted to many aspects of the school, but I also attended a rural LAC and really regret the experience (even though I was very athletic).



I should have gone to somewhere closer to DC, with more options than drinking for fun. Bryn Mawr, Haverford, Swarthmore? I was rejected from Princeton. The rural aspect of Williams has some shades of Deliverance in the winter. It can be pretty isolating without a strong friend group.


As the parent of a current Williams student, no, it's not like Deliverance. Not at all. Have you ever been Williamstown?

I do think it's important that a Williams student be able to enjoy the outdoors, appreciate the natural beauty of the setting, and not hate winter. My DC is more a city mouse than a country mouse, but he made a conscious decision to go to college in a rural setting, knowing that for his working life he'd probably be living in a big city.

ANY college experience is going to be "isolating" without a friend group. Of my 4 kids' college experiences, Williams made the most effort to ensure that freshman have a good social support system. I will say, though, that my DC, who works within that system, has noticed that this year's (2022) freshmen are more immature and less confident - they needed more "hand holding." DC thinks that may be because of the Covid school disruptions - but that's another discussion.


I'd be really interested in hearing more about your son's experience. My DD is putting together her college list and she's intrigued by Williams. She loves the outdoors (she loves to ski, we're a pretty outdoorsy family all things considered) but she is a city mouse in all senses of the word - born and raised on the UWS of Manhattan. Like I said she's intrigued by spending her college years in a place so different from NYC but it would be quite different! So I'm curious to know how your son settled in.


My DC took a gap year, so he was really, really ready to go to college when he started. The freshman entry program worked for him and his closest friends are still those he met in his entry. He's involved in several activities - clubs, sports, arts - and has both athlete and non-athlete friends. Most of his friends seem to be from NYC, Boston, SF, LA and DC, and I won't lie, they miss being in a city sometimes. Just being able to go to a different restaurant or to wander through shops or see a concert. This year has been better, both because the Covid restrictions have been lifted, but also because friends have cars and can drive to more urban places on the weekend. So he's gone a couple of times to Boston for concerts & to stay at a friend's house. And they have gone to Amherst, Northampton and up to Vermont for the day.

Academically, the school is hard and demanding. My kid for the 1st couple of days at winter break was tired in a way I'd never seen him before. But by the time he went back, he was ready to go. I guess for some kids Williams wasn't the best choice, but it has been for my kid.
Anonymous
Post 01/27/2023 14:25     Subject: does athletics dominate SLAC's like Amherst, Bowdoin, etc?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I'm trying to help my kid compile a list of colleges to explore. She's a top student at a magnet public school, with some regional and national level awards. She says she doesn't think she wants to go to a small school, but is willing to look at them. I've come across a few indicators that athletics dominates SLAC's like Williams, Amherst, Bowdoin (e.g., this article: https://www.gazettenet.com/Amherst-college-assesses-athletics-in-report-7871942). She's not an athlete. I'm not sure why a small school of about 2,000 people, where 40% of them are athletes who dominate the social scene and she is not part of that, would be a good fit for her. On the other hand, I keep hearing what a great education SLAC's provide. Anybody have any experience to offer about life for non-athletes at these sorts of schools?



There was a reddit post on SLACs last year. Long heartfelt post. Basically saying that if you are not part of a sports team, you might feel socially lonely. Of course if a student is an extrovert, socially adept, there are enough non-athletes to find a friend group. If not, then the pool becomes much more limited.


Here's the real problem. LACs, like almost all other colleges, practice some form of wokeism. Basically, colleges NEED to find some type of oppression, real or perceived, trumpet it, self-flagellate, and then form committees to tackle the problem.
Anonymous
Post 01/27/2023 14:07     Subject: does athletics dominate SLAC's like Amherst, Bowdoin, etc?
Not at all. Friendly with most, but no friend group per se. Even now, I am in touch with only two or three friends from college at all. The groups are quite tight from the get-go. Final point: a friend GROUP is helpful. If you are NOT an athlete or drama/music person, or in an affinity group, that can be hard to generate de novo.
Anonymous
Post 01/27/2023 14:07     Subject: does athletics dominate SLAC's like Amherst, Bowdoin, etc?
Anonymous wrote:I'm trying to help my kid compile a list of colleges to explore. She's a top student at a magnet public school, with some regional and national level awards. She says she doesn't think she wants to go to a small school, but is willing to look at them. I've come across a few indicators that athletics dominates SLAC's like Williams, Amherst, Bowdoin (e.g., this article: https://www.gazettenet.com/Amherst-college-assesses-athletics-in-report-7871942). She's not an athlete. I'm not sure why a small school of about 2,000 people, where 40% of them are athletes who dominate the social scene and she is not part of that, would be a good fit for her. On the other hand, I keep hearing what a great education SLAC's provide. Anybody have any experience to offer about life for non-athletes at these sorts of schools?



There was a reddit post on SLACs last year. Long heartfelt post. Basically saying that if you are not part of a sports team, you might feel socially lonely. Of course if a student is an extrovert, socially adept, there are enough non-athletes to find a friend group. If not, then the pool becomes much more limited.