Anonymous
Post 11/14/2018 16:11     Subject: Re:Pelvic exams on unconscious women
Anonymous wrote:It seems like the definition of a pelvic exam involves some evaluation for diagnostic or treatment purposes. If it's not done for those reasons, isn't that the same thing as some creep in any other non-medical setting doing the same thing to a woman, which would be rape?

That man may also have an MD. And he might commit the crime in his medical practice office. And he might have her consent to preform another procedure or to drug her. What's to stop him from saying that he deemed it "necessary"? It seems to me to be the same thing. (In fact, didn't something similar happen recently with some sort of sports team, maybe gymnastics??)

Can anyone with a legal background explain the difference between a "pelvic exam" that is not performed for the reason of actually diagnosing or treating the patient and "rape"? Why are things not legally crimes if they're committed during business hours in a reputable medical institution? And that's even if the woman has previously consented to being examined at all by med students, which I'm sure the vast majority do/would not if they'd been explicitly asked and/or aware of what they were signing.


exactly, how is this not rape
Anonymous
Post 11/14/2018 16:08     Subject: Pelvic exams on unconscious women
Just ask questions if you are not willing to be part of learning (which is fine) and be cautious where you get treated. I realize I am more practical then most, but when I had a LEEP at VHC there was a young Dr planning to become a surgeon who accompanied my OB as part of his rotations. Yes I felt a little weird when he was asking questions about my sexual history because quite frankly he was really cute. But I knew he was there to learn and become a good Dr and future surgeon, and my OB is an excellent one to learn with. I am sure he participated in some way in my surgery, and yes maybe they showed him my body and why it looks the way it looks (scars from sever childbirth tearing) the different parts and how to look at them using different scopes. I am totally fine with it. I was informed it was a learning hospital and a student would be present. I recognize many may not be, so just educate yourselves about where you are being treated and advocate for yourself. (as an aside, I feel I received far better treatment and care at VHC despite it being a teaching hospital
then I ever did at INOVA)
Anonymous
Post 11/14/2018 15:59     Subject: Pelvic exams on unconscious women
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I think a bit of level setting might be in order. These practices are at teaching hospitals when a patient is already going to have a pelvic procedure like a cancer treatment. Same with the prostate example. I am clearly ANTI both of these practices but, for example, if you go in for an upper GI, no, your vagina will not be investigated. Still, doesn't make it right but some context. Personally, I think it is criminal both the person doing it, all of the witnesses, and the medical center that lets it go on.


Correct. If the attending were going to need to a pelvic exam pre-procedure, the residents may also do one, as they are learning how. It's not as assault like as this thread is making it sound, although the patient herself may not understand what she has actually consented to, pre-operatively. Nurses often handle the consenting process, however it is the MD responsiblity, ultimately.


I'm the 4th year med student from above. I agree 100%. This is not happening (in my experience) EVER in a non-gynecological procedure. I don't think its assault per se, but I was uncomfortable doing it because I was not sure if the patient had been explicitly consented about a med student (me) doing a pelvic exam. Whereas in the office when the patient was awake they agreed to let me do it.
Anonymous
Post 11/14/2018 12:08     Subject: Pelvic exams on unconscious women
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Something creepy about males wanting to be OB/gynecologists these days.

We now have PLENTY of women physicians.
Thanks, guys. Your party is done.
As an RN I don't look at it like this at all. OB is generally a "happy medicine"-- women are giving birth and women generally take good care of themselves. I work in cardiac critical care and my patients are generally old and have many comorbidities. It gets pretty depressing to see people not take care of themselves and see their conditions worsen. Sometimes I think about switching to OB purely for the fact that people in the hospital for OB reasons are generally there for happy life events, not death and disease. I think that physicians choose their specialties in a similar manner.

Same troll?
Anonymous
Post 11/14/2018 12:06     Subject: Pelvic exams on unconscious women
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:It amazes me that anyone goes to a male ob gyn. Women are so naive.

Agree.
Anyone helping me birth my baby,
needs to have actually birthed a baby!
Sorry.

My male OB is by far the best doctor I've ever had. I also totally disagree with this logic- does an oncologist have to have cancer to be a good dr? Of course not- that is ridiculous. I say this as an RN.

Pssst. You sound like a troll.
Anonymous
Post 11/14/2018 12:02     Subject: Pelvic exams on unconscious women
Anonymous wrote:Something creepy about males wanting to be OB/gynecologists these days.

We now have PLENTY of women physicians.
Thanks, guys. Your party is done.
As an RN I don't look at it like this at all. OB is generally a "happy medicine"-- women are giving birth and women generally take good care of themselves. I work in cardiac critical care and my patients are generally old and have many comorbidities. It gets pretty depressing to see people not take care of themselves and see their conditions worsen. Sometimes I think about switching to OB purely for the fact that people in the hospital for OB reasons are generally there for happy life events, not death and disease. I think that physicians choose their specialties in a similar manner.
Anonymous
Post 11/14/2018 11:57     Subject: Pelvic exams on unconscious women
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:It amazes me that anyone goes to a male ob gyn. Women are so naive.

Agree.
Anyone helping me birth my baby,
needs to have actually birthed a baby!
Sorry.

My male OB is by far the best doctor I've ever had. I also totally disagree with this logic- does an oncologist have to have cancer to be a good dr? Of course not- that is ridiculous. I say this as an RN.


Your doctor is counting on your trust. Open your eyes a bit more, and keep them open.
Anonymous
Post 11/14/2018 11:53     Subject: Pelvic exams on unconscious women
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:It amazes me that anyone goes to a male ob gyn. Women are so naive.

Agree.
Anyone helping me birth my baby,
needs to have actually birthed a baby!
Sorry.

My male OB is by far the best doctor I've ever had. I also totally disagree with this logic- does an oncologist have to have cancer to be a good dr? Of course not- that is ridiculous. I say this as an RN.
Anonymous
Post 11/14/2018 11:51     Subject: Pelvic exams on unconscious women
The comment about medicine being so hostile that other doctors can't blow the whistle is BS. Silence is complicity.
Anonymous
Post 11/14/2018 11:47     Subject: Pelvic exams on unconscious women
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I have to have a LEEP done under anesthesia (hospital outpatient) in a few weeks and I am now terrified.


Just ask ahead of time, as per earlier in this thread. Review the recommendations, and make sure you trust your providers. Are you going to a teaching hospital, or a private hospital?

Go over the surgical/treatment consents carefully. Ask who (and why!!) will be present in the room and touching you. Be specific and advocate for yourself. Tell your nurses your concerns. This is a relatively simple procedure, and your doctor probably already knows your anatomy.


It is a private hospital, as far as I know (Inova). Yes, my doctor knows me and I trust him. My husband will also be there, insofar as he can advocate
for me. Usually I am the opposite of an alarmist person but I am already on edge about this procedure so it’s just a little unsettling.
Anonymous
Post 11/14/2018 11:43     Subject: Pelvic exams on unconscious women
Anonymous wrote:I have to have a LEEP done under anesthesia (hospital outpatient) in a few weeks and I am now terrified.


Just ask ahead of time, as per earlier in this thread. Review the recommendations, and make sure you trust your providers. Are you going to a teaching hospital, or a private hospital?

Go over the surgical/treatment consents carefully. Ask who (and why!!) will be present in the room and touching you. Be specific and advocate for yourself. Tell your nurses your concerns. This is a relatively simple procedure, and your doctor probably already knows your anatomy.
Anonymous
Post 11/14/2018 11:43     Subject: Pelvic exams on unconscious women
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I think a bit of level setting might be in order. These practices are at teaching hospitals when a patient is already going to have a pelvic procedure like a cancer treatment. Same with the prostate example. I am clearly ANTI both of these practices but, for example, if you go in for an upper GI, no, your vagina will not be investigated. Still, doesn't make it right but some context. Personally, I think it is criminal both the person doing it, all of the witnesses, and the medical center that lets it go on.


Correct. If the attending were going to need to a pelvic exam pre-procedure, the residents may also do one, as they are learning how. It's not as assault like as this thread is making it sound, although the patient herself may not understand what she has actually consented to, pre-operatively. Nurses often handle the consenting process, however it is the MD responsiblity, ultimately.


Oh, it's not like, my child is going in to have ear tubes put in, so I need to be totally panicked and talk to the female nurses ahead of time, etc. etc. etc."???
Anonymous
Post 11/14/2018 11:39     Subject: Pelvic exams on unconscious women
Anonymous wrote:I think a bit of level setting might be in order. These practices are at teaching hospitals when a patient is already going to have a pelvic procedure like a cancer treatment. Same with the prostate example. I am clearly ANTI both of these practices but, for example, if you go in for an upper GI, no, your vagina will not be investigated. Still, doesn't make it right but some context. Personally, I think it is criminal both the person doing it, all of the witnesses, and the medical center that lets it go on.


Correct. If the attending were going to need to a pelvic exam pre-procedure, the residents may also do one, as they are learning how. It's not as assault like as this thread is making it sound, although the patient herself may not understand what she has actually consented to, pre-operatively. Nurses often handle the consenting process, however it is the MD responsiblity, ultimately.
Anonymous
Post 11/14/2018 11:32     Subject: Pelvic exams on unconscious women
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:It amazes me that anyone goes to a male ob gyn. Women are so naive.

My male OB with 30 years of experience is incredible in terms of bedside manner, knowledge, respect from his peers, and skill. I understand wanting a female as I only initially chose him because he was close and took my insurance. In hindsight, he is the best doctor I have ever seen.


I chose my now long retired OB/GYN to deliver my kids because he was a solo practitioner with a very, very low C-section rate. Huge amount of experience including combat, where they often prefer OB/GYNs because they know how to deal with profuse bleeding.

These things matter more to me than the sex of the doctor.


That's great you have a nice, competent doctor. As expected. This post is about unconcious women being subjected to pelvic exams.


The thread was about that but then took a turn against male doctors in general and male OB/GYNs in particular.

I do think the practice discussed in the OP is heinous.
Anonymous
Post 11/14/2018 11:19     Subject: Pelvic exams on unconscious women
I think a bit of level setting might be in order. These practices are at teaching hospitals when a patient is already going to have a pelvic procedure like a cancer treatment. Same with the prostate example. I am clearly ANTI both of these practices but, for example, if you go in for an upper GI, no, your vagina will not be investigated. Still, doesn't make it right but some context. Personally, I think it is criminal both the person doing it, all of the witnesses, and the medical center that lets it go on.