Anonymous
Post 08/25/2018 22:02     Subject: Is it common to have 30+ kids in class in MCPS ES?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:One advantage of DCPS over MCPS for ES is class size. My kids are at an upper NW ES and have around 21-23 kids, Lower grades have an aide too.


And there are often two adults since PTAs can fund aides. MoCo prohibits this based on notions of equity and not wanting to worsen the achievement gap, although this measure only stunts the achievement of better performing schools and doesn't actually help anyone in schools that are struggling.


MCPS prohibits this on the basis of equity, full stop. And rightfully so.


That's like saying there should be an extra 25% tax on the rich. But, rather than using that money to help the poor, build roads, fund healthcare, etc - you simply burn the money.

The rich having less is more "equitable," even though it hasn't help the poor or society more broadly in the process.


No. It’s basically to avoid creating private public schools, where wealthy families are able to fund their schools themselves and eventually seek to lower taxes to not have to fund schools in poorer neighborhoods. It also makes sure that funding decisions are centralized and traceable to a central authority for accountability and mission


We are talking about having an aide in the classroom to assist the teacher. That hardly renders a public school private as wouldn't be near enough for people to decide schools didn't need to be adequately funded. And as for accountability, the aide is accountable first to the teacher who is in charge of the teacher and is next managed by the principal (and assistants and others school management) who is then managed by the various layers of MoCo bureaucracy.

There is more than to ensure that an aide - who would barely set any classroom policies, never mind anything broader - remains accountable and consistent with the mission.


And why is that equitable in terms of my kid’s school which has much less money in the pta.


I used to think this way too. Listen, life isn't fair. Work harder and move into that school or get an apartment in that district. Would it be better to lower the total amount of money to fund the schools? Because that's what been happening. We have had more concern about equity than education in this county - that's a real issue.


https://www.thisamericanlife.org/562/the-problem-we-all-live-with-part-one
Anonymous
Post 08/25/2018 21:58     Subject: Re:Is it common to have 30+ kids in class in MCPS ES?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:We moved to the Bethesda area a month ago and were shocked to hear from the principal that classes had 28-29 kids, one class had 30 kids. This is not what appears on the website and what we were told. We moved from an area in the Midwest with decent public schools and never more than 22-23 kids in elementary. I was an educator in my "first career" and there are reams of research on why this is bad for many reasons. No advanced nation with good schools has classes this big since it is well-known that small class sizes are much better for kids.

Is it worth talking to the Principal about this? Or the PTA?

Could anyone help point me in the right direction of who I should email?



We moved to London 2 years ago, almost every school has exactly 30 kids in every class and there are waiting lists for every grade level at most schools. Every time a child moves there is a new kid in the spot just a day or 2 later.There are 4 classes at each grade level and 2 teaching assistants for each grade level who basically pull kids out for extra help in small groups.

The class sizes are “big” compared to US, but the education my children are getting is fantastic. I seriously don’t know where my kids can go to school when we move back the MCPS schools we toured were really sad looking in comparison, facilities and programming. I don’t think class size is the problem.


Are you speaking of private pay schools in the UK? I don’t think you can compare to public school. Or if it’s public, how can they have a waiting list?


It is s “state” school, we would call it public. We do not pay tuition, it’s just a different way of doing things. Instead of like US, when you move into a neighborhood and the school makes a space for you, you get assigned to a school that has a space. It may or may not be a school in your neighborhood. When we first moved my youngest daughter got a spot in reception(pre-k) in the school 4 blocks from our house. My older daughter got a year 2( first grade ) spot at a school half a mile away. She was on a waiting list until January for the closed school and then she got in. They do give sibling preference.


But I’m telling you it’s an amazing school and the national curriculum here is great. Having 30 kids ina class does not prevent my kids from receiving an “outstanding” education (outstanding is the rating the school received)
Anonymous
Post 08/25/2018 21:09     Subject: Re:Is it common to have 30+ kids in class in MCPS ES?
Anonymous wrote:
Or if it’s public, how can they have a waiting list?


I've seen this in public schools in other areas. If your home school is at capacity when you move in, you are automatically transferred to another school within the district that is not at capacity. You're put on a waiting list until a spot opens up at your home school. It keeps the schools from being over crowded but drives more people toward private if the transfer school is lower performing than the home school.


Lol ... MCPS doesn’t do that. It just adds portables and tells parents to deal. Our ES is at 160% capacity.
Anonymous
Post 08/25/2018 21:07     Subject: Re:Is it common to have 30+ kids in class in MCPS ES?
Or if it’s public, how can they have a waiting list?


I've seen this in public schools in other areas. If your home school is at capacity when you move in, you are automatically transferred to another school within the district that is not at capacity. You're put on a waiting list until a spot opens up at your home school. It keeps the schools from being over crowded but drives more people toward private if the transfer school is lower performing than the home school.
Anonymous
Post 08/25/2018 18:47     Subject: Re:Is it common to have 30+ kids in class in MCPS ES?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:We moved to the Bethesda area a month ago and were shocked to hear from the principal that classes had 28-29 kids, one class had 30 kids. This is not what appears on the website and what we were told. We moved from an area in the Midwest with decent public schools and never more than 22-23 kids in elementary. I was an educator in my "first career" and there are reams of research on why this is bad for many reasons. No advanced nation with good schools has classes this big since it is well-known that small class sizes are much better for kids.

Is it worth talking to the Principal about this? Or the PTA?

Could anyone help point me in the right direction of who I should email?



We moved to London 2 years ago, almost every school has exactly 30 kids in every class and there are waiting lists for every grade level at most schools. Every time a child moves there is a new kid in the spot just a day or 2 later.There are 4 classes at each grade level and 2 teaching assistants for each grade level who basically pull kids out for extra help in small groups.

The class sizes are “big” compared to US, but the education my children are getting is fantastic. I seriously don’t know where my kids can go to school when we move back the MCPS schools we toured were really sad looking in comparison, facilities and programming. I don’t think class size is the problem.


Are you speaking of private pay schools in the UK? I don’t think you can compare to public school. Or if it’s public, how can they have a waiting list?
Anonymous
Post 08/25/2018 18:16     Subject: Re:Is it common to have 30+ kids in class in MCPS ES?
Anonymous wrote:We moved to the Bethesda area a month ago and were shocked to hear from the principal that classes had 28-29 kids, one class had 30 kids. This is not what appears on the website and what we were told. We moved from an area in the Midwest with decent public schools and never more than 22-23 kids in elementary. I was an educator in my "first career" and there are reams of research on why this is bad for many reasons. No advanced nation with good schools has classes this big since it is well-known that small class sizes are much better for kids.

Is it worth talking to the Principal about this? Or the PTA?

Could anyone help point me in the right direction of who I should email?



We moved to London 2 years ago, almost every school has exactly 30 kids in every class and there are waiting lists for every grade level at most schools. Every time a child moves there is a new kid in the spot just a day or 2 later.There are 4 classes at each grade level and 2 teaching assistants for each grade level who basically pull kids out for extra help in small groups.

The class sizes are “big” compared to US, but the education my children are getting is fantastic. I seriously don’t know where my kids can go to school when we move back the MCPS schools we toured were really sad looking in comparison, facilities and programming. I don’t think class size is the problem.
Anonymous
Post 08/25/2018 17:26     Subject: Re:Is it common to have 30+ kids in class in MCPS ES?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:We moved to the Bethesda area a month ago and were shocked to hear from the principal that classes had 28-29 kids, one class had 30 kids. This is not what appears on the website and what we were told.
]

Look at the website again - it's a student/staff ratio on the website, and for staff they are including the secretary, building service staff, cafeteria staff, etc. Its not that they have you misinformation, they just weren't giving you the teacher/student ratio per class, and instead were giving the student/staff ratio.
Anonymous
Post 08/25/2018 13:56     Subject: Is it common to have 30+ kids in class in MCPS ES?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:One advantage of DCPS over MCPS for ES is class size. My kids are at an upper NW ES and have around 21-23 kids, Lower grades have an aide too.


And there are often two adults since PTAs can fund aides. MoCo prohibits this based on notions of equity and not wanting to worsen the achievement gap, although this measure only stunts the achievement of better performing schools and doesn't actually help anyone in schools that are struggling.


MCPS prohibits this on the basis of equity, full stop. And rightfully so.


That's like saying there should be an extra 25% tax on the rich. But, rather than using that money to help the poor, build roads, fund healthcare, etc - you simply burn the money.

The rich having less is more "equitable," even though it hasn't help the poor or society more broadly in the process.


No. It’s basically to avoid creating private public schools, where wealthy families are able to fund their schools themselves and eventually seek to lower taxes to not have to fund schools in poorer neighborhoods. It also makes sure that funding decisions are centralized and traceable to a central authority for accountability and mission


We are talking about having an aide in the classroom to assist the teacher. That hardly renders a public school private as wouldn't be near enough for people to decide schools didn't need to be adequately funded. And as for accountability, the aide is accountable first to the teacher who is in charge of the teacher and is next managed by the principal (and assistants and others school management) who is then managed by the various layers of MoCo bureaucracy.

There is more than to ensure that an aide - who would barely set any classroom policies, never mind anything broader - remains accountable and consistent with the mission.


And why is that equitable in terms of my kid’s school which has much less money in the pta.


The looks it is counterproductive to try to achieve equity in ways that harm wealthier schools without helping poorer schools. Keeping a W school from having an aide doesn't benefit your child.

Lower performing schools actually have lower class sizes because there is additional funding to support that. Is that equitable? Based on how you are defining equity, it really isn't. However, I am fine with that because that policy actually benefits kids in lower performing schools, and I agree with the policy rationales trying to give such schools/kids a leg up.

But preventing an aide in wealthier schools doesn't actually help anyone. It just hinders some people and I don't believe that the achievement gap should be closed by, in part, preventing wealthier students from achieving as much as possible.
Anonymous
Post 08/25/2018 13:29     Subject: Is it common to have 30+ kids in class in MCPS ES?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:One advantage of DCPS over MCPS for ES is class size. My kids are at an upper NW ES and have around 21-23 kids, Lower grades have an aide too.


And there are often two adults since PTAs can fund aides. MoCo prohibits this based on notions of equity and not wanting to worsen the achievement gap, although this measure only stunts the achievement of better performing schools and doesn't actually help anyone in schools that are struggling.


MCPS prohibits this on the basis of equity, full stop. And rightfully so.


That's like saying there should be an extra 25% tax on the rich. But, rather than using that money to help the poor, build roads, fund healthcare, etc - you simply burn the money.

The rich having less is more "equitable," even though it hasn't help the poor or society more broadly in the process.


No. It’s basically to avoid creating private public schools, where wealthy families are able to fund their schools themselves and eventually seek to lower taxes to not have to fund schools in poorer neighborhoods. It also makes sure that funding decisions are centralized and traceable to a central authority for accountability and mission


We are talking about having an aide in the classroom to assist the teacher. That hardly renders a public school private as wouldn't be near enough for people to decide schools didn't need to be adequately funded. And as for accountability, the aide is accountable first to the teacher who is in charge of the teacher and is next managed by the principal (and assistants and others school management) who is then managed by the various layers of MoCo bureaucracy.

There is more than to ensure that an aide - who would barely set any classroom policies, never mind anything broader - remains accountable and consistent with the mission.


And why is that equitable in terms of my kid’s school which has much less money in the pta.


I used to think this way too. Listen, life isn't fair. Work harder and move into that school or get an apartment in that district. Would it be better to lower the total amount of money to fund the schools? Because that's what been happening. We have had more concern about equity than education in this county - that's a real issue.
Anonymous
Post 08/25/2018 13:26     Subject: Re:Is it common to have 30+ kids in class in MCPS ES?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:We moved to the Bethesda area a month ago and were shocked to hear from the principal that classes had 28-29 kids, one class had 30 kids. This is not what appears on the website and what we were told. We moved from an area in the Midwest with decent public schools and never more than 22-23 kids in elementary. I was an educator in my "first career" and there are reams of research on why this is bad for many reasons. No advanced nation with good schools has classes this big since it is well-known that small class sizes are much better for kids.

Is it worth talking to the Principal about this? Or the PTA?

Could anyone help point me in the right direction of who I should email?


I don't think there is much the principal can do. Or the PTA. MCPS doesn't allow the PTAs to fund extra staff.

It's just the way it is, unfortunately.


Hi Beowulf start by attacking this issue. My wife and I cannot keep taking off work to volunteer in our children’s K and 1st grade. They teacher and students need more adults in the room, teaching students, helping students, providing feedback to students/parents.
My wife and I also cannot keep up with the supplementing at home due to our FT jobs and travel. We quickly noticed how many families only use MCPS for half of their child’s academic education- they use summer camps, tutors, part homeschooling , after school and weekend classes for supplementing holes and subjects MCPS barely touches until middle school. This is not how public school used to be.

Real shame.


Right - I know someone who switched to private for this reason. She said she couldn't work her demanding job and manage the school system. For example, meetings with parents are held at asinine times like 10 a.m. or noon. In private, the meetings are held at 7:00 a.m., 8 a.m., whenever best for your schedule.

In our case, we have two boys who would in no way subscribe to having tutors and extra classes. How do parents get their boys to comply (particularly your average white or black boys?) It is too hard and too much work juggling all this extra expense and calendar inclusion.
Anonymous
Post 08/25/2018 13:20     Subject: Re:Is it common to have 30+ kids in class in MCPS ES?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:We moved to the Bethesda area a month ago and were shocked to hear from the principal that classes had 28-29 kids, one class had 30 kids. This is not what appears on the website and what we were told. We moved from an area in the Midwest with decent public schools and never more than 22-23 kids in elementary. I was an educator in my "first career" and there are reams of research on why this is bad for many reasons. No advanced nation with good schools has classes this big since it is well-known that small class sizes are much better for kids.

Is it worth talking to the Principal about this? Or the PTA?

Could anyone help point me in the right direction of who I should email?


I sympathize and agree with you, but nothing is going to change. It’s honestly pointless to try.


It is always worth bringing it up again and again.

MCPS wants to train you and your kids to shut up and take it. Keep emailing. Keep talking to them. Agree that emailing state on the cc or in To line is a great idea too. This stuff adds up. When we left for NE DC we said in writing why and emailed it up and down the chain. Don’t trust the “feedback loop” even exisits in public sector. Everyone is just after more retirement benefits and juicers positions. They won’t alway pass along your concern.


Seriously? You left MCPS for Northeast DC? This is the first I've heard of this. Are your kids in the Capitol Hill elementaries? Do you plan to go all the way through public in DC?
Anonymous
Post 08/25/2018 13:18     Subject: Re:Is it common to have 30+ kids in class in MCPS ES?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:We moved to the Bethesda area a month ago and were shocked to hear from the principal that classes had 28-29 kids, one class had 30 kids. This is not what appears on the website and what we were told. We moved from an area in the Midwest with decent public schools and never more than 22-23 kids in elementary. I was an educator in my "first career" and there are reams of research on why this is bad for many reasons. No advanced nation with good schools has classes this big since it is well-known that small class sizes are much better for kids.

Is it worth talking to the Principal about this? Or the PTA?

Could anyone help point me in the right direction of who I should email?


OP, I agree with you and I'm sorry you've had this surprise. Your best bet would be the Board of Ed and your local elected officials, or those up for election. CC the State Superintendent of Education. You're preaching to the choir with the PTA and Principal - these decisions are made way above their heads.


Complain to everyone. Board of Ed, County Council, get involved with the MCCPTA not just your school’s PTA. There was a big push in case sizes 2-3 years ago and the “guidelines” came down by 1 student. They are not hard cut-offs, but guidelines unfortunately. For this particular year you could try the BOE and Councilmember for your district for starters. Making noise is about all you can do and hope they are hearing from others too.


PP, I've been through all the routes you suggest. MCCPTA was most disappointing - rather than support students full stop, they play the political game and "compromise" with the county - way too early. Not hard line enough. Make this a key issue in race between Elrich and Floreen - this would shake things up. Floreen is pretty clear - she thinks the dissatisfied wealthy should move or put kids in private. This is part of the reason why we are losing more kids to private, Howard County, DC, and elsewhere. But Elrich? His position is developers need to pay more in infrastructure fees since they are making money off of bringing more people into the county and the county is left with the bill for roads, schools, other infrastructure.
Anonymous
Post 08/25/2018 13:13     Subject: Is it common to have 30+ kids in class in MCPS ES?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:One advantage of DCPS over MCPS for ES is class size. My kids are at an upper NW ES and have around 21-23 kids, Lower grades have an aide too.


And there are often two adults since PTAs can fund aides. MoCo prohibits this based on notions of equity and not wanting to worsen the achievement gap, although this measure only stunts the achievement of better performing schools and doesn't actually help anyone in schools that are struggling.


Bingo. But someone's bonus or next contract counts on closing the achievement gap, so it drives the dumbing down of education.
Anonymous
Post 08/25/2018 13:11     Subject: Is it common to have 30+ kids in class in MCPS ES?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

Remember, MCPS goals are to close the achievement gap between hispanics/blacks and whites/asians, and have everyone graduate at a level of proficiency to be able to go to community college.
If you have other goals, do them yourself. They will use the $2.2B budget to pay themselves, their benefits and help the bottom with food, healthcare, english, childcare, reading and math.


I've read this assertion multiple times on DCUM. Nobody has ever produced any evidence to support this assertion.


Why do we have to satisfy you? Go read the MCPS presentations and documents - it's very clear, they began laying this out years ago, and we've seen the policies being enacted.


D
Generally it's the responsibility of the person making the assertion to provide the evidence to support the assertion.

But if you don't want to, then you don't have to. It's an anonymous Internet message board.


id you attend the back to school night presentations with video? It's clear. Their focus is on the bottom and social equity. It makes sense from a broad perspective. It's hard though when you know your kid is not being intellectually challenged, and is still making easy As with minimal effort. That's the crux of it. All of us posting probably remember having a more rigorous education -- even in lower middle class areas.
Anonymous
Post 08/25/2018 11:54     Subject: Is it common to have 30+ kids in class in MCPS ES?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:One advantage of DCPS over MCPS for ES is class size. My kids are at an upper NW ES and have around 21-23 kids, Lower grades have an aide too.


And there are often two adults since PTAs can fund aides. MoCo prohibits this based on notions of equity and not wanting to worsen the achievement gap, although this measure only stunts the achievement of better performing schools and doesn't actually help anyone in schools that are struggling.


MCPS prohibits this on the basis of equity, full stop. And rightfully so.


That's like saying there should be an extra 25% tax on the rich. But, rather than using that money to help the poor, build roads, fund healthcare, etc - you simply burn the money.

The rich having less is more "equitable," even though it hasn't help the poor or society more broadly in the process.


No. It’s basically to avoid creating private public schools, where wealthy families are able to fund their schools themselves and eventually seek to lower taxes to not have to fund schools in poorer neighborhoods. It also makes sure that funding decisions are centralized and traceable to a central authority for accountability and mission


We are talking about having an aide in the classroom to assist the teacher. That hardly renders a public school private as wouldn't be near enough for people to decide schools didn't need to be adequately funded. And as for accountability, the aide is accountable first to the teacher who is in charge of the teacher and is next managed by the principal (and assistants and others school management) who is then managed by the various layers of MoCo bureaucracy.

There is more than to ensure that an aide - who would barely set any classroom policies, never mind anything broader - remains accountable and consistent with the mission.


And why is that equitable in terms of my kid’s school which has much less money in the pta.