Anonymous wrote:I had a sister who was about 14.5 years older than me. She was murdered by her estranged husband after they had separated and were in the process of divorcing. She was 22 and I was almost 8. The court ordered her to take their baby for visitation and he killed her and committed suicide during one of those visits. He left the baby alone. She told my dad and older brother (one year younger than her) that she thought my BIL was going to kill her. They told her not to be silly and paranoid. My dad carried the guilt of not listening to her to his grave and my brother, who is nearly 60 now still carries some guilt.

Fast forward a few years to the summer I turned 15. I helped my grandmother clean out closets in her house because she wanted to sell it and downsize. I found a box of paper...one of those big boxes that (in those days) typing paper came in...I guess now it would be printer paper. I opened it and it was filled with sheets my sister had written as a journal. It detailed times my brother in law had beaten her, chased her out of their apartment in his underpants so he could beat her some more etc. It was in some ways cathartic for me to read because it helped me understand what I hand't known before and that was my BIL didn't just snap one day. There was a lot of lead up to what he did. I showed the box to my mom who then burned its contents which I think was sort of dumb, but not my call.

Generally speaking, I don't think most people just snap. There are little things leading up to it along the way. It's important to pay attention and notice the little things without becoming paranoid in the process.

What a horrible story, my heart goes out to you PP. What happened to your niece?? I hope she was able to grow up in a loving family.

To the OP - I have a bit of different perspective since my brother is BPD and a narcissist. In all of his relationships he was violent, including with my parents and me and my sister. He would try and pit my sister and I against each other and even tried to break up friendships with others. He tried to choke me once. He was also very cruel to animals we had and even used some of them as target practice. He ended up marrying his high school sweetheart and cheated on her and then proceeded to say it was her fault all while telling her and their many children that their mom was worthless. Outwardly, people did not see him this way. They saw him as charismatic and a nice guy who would give you the shirt off his back. What they didn't see was that the shirt off his back was given at the expense of those he supposedly loved. Recently my 6 year old niece had an incident where she needed stitches during her time with him. The details are fuzzy for him but one thing is for sure, he made sure everyone (including all social media outlets) were aware and that he needed prayers and how hard the whole ordeal was on HIM. He barely mentioned his daughter, but kept going on and on about how hard he was taking it and how upset he was. His social media "friends" just kept telling him what a great dad because he cared so much about his daughter.

To anyone you are dating I think you can ask some related questions to the things I have mentioned. If you ask if they have ever cheated on anyone and they get defensive or try and justify (or even brag about) those actions then that says something. Find out what his relationship is like with his siblings. Does he have any contact with them? Does he have any close friends that you could also talk to and ask some character type questions? In my brother's case he sabotaged all of his other relationships and people in our family who talk to him only do it so he won't target them. It's a miserable existence for some of them, they are walking on eggshells around him all the time. Any little thing could set him off. I do not have a relationship with him at all and have his number and email blocked so he can't contact me. This was at the advice of a good friend of mine who is a therapist. She said people like this who are toxic just create drama and suck people in and that if I can I should cut all contact. It's easy for me because he lives far away and he has other people who give him the attention. I'm not saying everyone is like this and they may try to hide their true self to you initially, but you can't ignore the signs if they are presented!

Anonymous wrote:Inconsiderate•

No, let's stick with invinsiderate. Much more fun

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Anonymous wrote:Everything they do is a sign, in hindsight. Actually every single one of you have a "sign" in your relationship, but it is not a sign until he actually hits you.

I had some "signs" so I went to a therapist and we did couples therapy.

I was told, it's not what he does, it's your reaction.
I needed to figure out his love language and blah blah blah.
I needed to put more effort into the marriage since the kids were sucking my energy away from him.
I needed to make sure I was not keeping score with the chores.
I needed to make sure our sex life was not stale, and all that BS.

I spent 3 years with a therapist and a marriage counselor; they were told ALL THE SIGNS but they never said, hey this is toxic, you need to leave. All the Dr. Phil BS was fed to me, marriage is hard, raising kids are harder, your H is stressed you need to be a light place for him to land, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

The think is my H was way nicer and kinder and involved with the kids than all my friends H's who never hit them. But, if they ever do, I have about 300 signs that showed they would.

this poster is exactly right. I was in a relationship where my partner was doing things that were absolutely unacceptable. Because he hadn't hit me (yet), the therapists pulled all of these "therapitic techniques out. I finally left because I simply decided that our 2 kids and I would not live with the unacceptable behaviors. Everyone on this thread is focusing on tbe wrong thing -- how do you know he will hit you - when the real question is for what reason is it OK to walk away?

The answer to that last question is, frankly, it is always OK to walk away for any reason. Feel uncomfortable? Demeaned? Constricted? Criticized? Unloved in the way you want to be lived? Nit exclusive enough or too exclusive?

As women, we have to have permission to seek out relationships on our terms, and that is a far broader thing than simply "is he going to hit me?"

Thanks, Captain Obvious. The real issue is that most of these women lack either self-esteem or any amount of critical thinking.

No, that is not the real issue. The real issue is that our culture has broadly accepted and normalized abuse from men. Marital rape wasn't prosecutable until 1973. Date rape is still largely unprosecutable and even when prosecuted is largely unpunished. The #metoo movement demonstrates the extent to which sexual assault and harrassment is embedded in our culture and relationships. And our economic disempowerment (lower wages, less career mobility, no maternity leave, no widely available reasonable childcare, poor levels of child support post-divorce, and unequal parental burden-sharing) makes it very hard to leave an abusive relationship, especially before the hitting starts.

But sure, blame male abuse on dumb women with low self-esteem.

+1

Women are socialized from very early to take it all upon themselves. We're in charge of keeping men happy. We're socialized to ignore our own good.

It's absolutely terrifying that so many women on this thread are using "we were socialized this way" as an excuse for enduring abuse. You recognize the issue and yet use it as a crutch to justify why you stay in the situation? Of course no one should be abusing you, but it appears that the majority of you are your own worst enemy!

Its not just women on this thread. It's scientists all over the world.

Suck lack of education on this subject is astounding.

Education?

It's something that happens when you read extensively on a subject. Which you have obviously not done when it comes to this subject.

I have no clue what you are taking about. What is the education that you are taking about? Education as to why people are abused or become victims? Education as to why the phenomenon exists? Education about something else?

Not the same pp as you are responding to, but there is a lot of information out there. It unfortunately usually takes us in an abusive relationship to see it. It starts with emotional abuse, control and manipulation, and confusing the victim. Those are the places to look first.

I agree that people aren't educated about it. But we have to put it in front of their faces. Discussing that Denver case with friends is a great way. When I am free of him, I plan to make it my life's work to make it well known. Putting ot in context of this is happenimg all around us and can happen to you. Go from no violence besides emotional/financial to dead in an instant.

Here’s book for you, OP:
https://www.amazon.com/Stop-Signs-Recognizing-Avoiding-Relationships/dp/1580053874/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1534899753&sr=8-1&keywords=stop+signs+book

...No, that is not the real issue. The real issue is that our culture has broadly accepted and normalized abuse from men. Marital rape wasn't prosecutable until 1973. Date rape is still largely unprosecutable and even when prosecuted is largely unpunished. The #metoo movement demonstrates the extent to which sexual assault and harrassment is embedded in our culture and relationships. And our economic disempowerment (lower wages, less career mobility, no maternity leave, no widely available reasonable childcare, poor levels of child support post-divorce, and unequal parental burden-sharing) makes it very hard to leave an abusive relationship, especially before the hitting starts.

But sure, blame male abuse on dumb women with low self-esteem.


+1

Women are socialized from very early to take it all upon themselves. We're in charge of keeping men happy. We're socialized to ignore our own good.

You do realize a notable number of men are also victims of domestic violence, don't you? And, it's not just men in homosexual relationships.

https://ncadv.org/statistics

It's pretty clear very few abused or not understand the "signs" of abuse but like to think they can't become a victim because they "know better" or would leave the second he says "wow your brother is an invinsiderate dolt".


Here we go with the excuses again. Yes, if someone abuses you once and then twice and then a third time and you DO NOT LEAVE then you are part of your own problem.


I understand that your righteousness comes from a place of ignorance the exact type that may get you in trouble in the future. I am not here to convince you of the science. It is there for you to read, reasearch, and understand or you can just walk through life believing "you know better". I suspect I'm not the 1st tel you that your hardheaded and self righteous attitude is getting i the way for you to learn. It's blocking you from learning and understanding. Good luck with that.

DP. I have no idea what 'science' you're talking about. There is a lot of science out there documenting the warning signs of an abusive relationship. Yet, it is astounding how many people to choose to ignore those signs and/or make excuses for the behavior. It's a pattern that happens over and over and it escalates. I recognize that it is difficult to accept that a relationship isn't working out but it is a choice to stay after abusive/controlling/demeaning/disrespectful behavior is demonstrated.

Amazing. Women now refuse to accept any responsibility for their circumstances. It's the man's fault you're being abused and it's society's fault that you won't leave. I guess you'll always just be a poor, defenseless, helpless victim.

WTF!

It's NOT the mans fault that he beat s and kills women.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Everything they do is a sign, in hindsight. Actually every single one of you have a "sign" in your relationship, but it is not a sign until he actually hits you.

I had some "signs" so I went to a therapist and we did couples therapy.

I was told, it's not what he does, it's your reaction.
I needed to figure out his love language and blah blah blah.
I needed to put more effort into the marriage since the kids were sucking my energy away from him.
I needed to make sure I was not keeping score with the chores.
I needed to make sure our sex life was not stale, and all that BS.

I spent 3 years with a therapist and a marriage counselor; they were told ALL THE SIGNS but they never said, hey this is toxic, you need to leave. All the Dr. Phil BS was fed to me, marriage is hard, raising kids are harder, your H is stressed you need to be a light place for him to land, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

The think is my H was way nicer and kinder and involved with the kids than all my friends H's who never hit them. But, if they ever do, I have about 300 signs that showed they would.

this poster is exactly right. I was in a relationship where my partner was doing things that were absolutely unacceptable. Because he hadn't hit me (yet), the therapists pulled all of these "therapitic techniques out. I finally left because I simply decided that our 2 kids and I would not live with the unacceptable behaviors. Everyone on this thread is focusing on tbe wrong thing -- how do you know he will hit you - when the real question is for what reason is it OK to walk away?

The answer to that last question is, frankly, it is always OK to walk away for any reason. Feel uncomfortable? Demeaned? Constricted? Criticized? Unloved in the way you want to be lived? Nit exclusive enough or too exclusive?

As women, we have to have permission to seek out relationships on our terms, and that is a far broader thing than simply "is he going to hit me?"

Thanks, Captain Obvious. The real issue is that most of these women lack either self-esteem or any amount of critical thinking.

No, that is not the real issue. The real issue is that our culture has broadly accepted and normalized abuse from men. Marital rape wasn't prosecutable until 1973. Date rape is still largely unprosecutable and even when prosecuted is largely unpunished. The #metoo movement demonstrates the extent to which sexual assault and harrassment is embedded in our culture and relationships. And our economic disempowerment (lower wages, less career mobility, no maternity leave, no widely available reasonable childcare, poor levels of child support post-divorce, and unequal parental burden-sharing) makes it very hard to leave an abusive relationship, especially before the hitting starts.

But sure, blame male abuse on dumb women with low self-esteem.

+1

Women are socialized from very early to take it all upon themselves. We're in charge of keeping men happy. We're socialized to ignore our own good.

It's absolutely terrifying that so many women on this thread are using "we were socialized this way" as an excuse for enduring abuse. You recognize the issue and yet use it as a crutch to justify why you stay in the situation? Of course no one should be abusing you, but it appears that the majority of you are your own worst enemy!

Its not just women on this thread. It's scientists all over the world.

Suck lack of education on this subject is astounding.

Education?

It's something that happens when you read extensively on a subject. Which you have obviously not done when it comes to this subject.

Amazing. Women now refuse to accept any responsibility for their circumstances. It's the man's fault you're being abused and it's society's fault that you won't leave. I guess you'll always just be a poor, defenseless, helpless victim.

Anonymous wrote:FU. There are often no signs at all. Do you think women are stupid? do you think women want to be hit? I dated someone 4 years and lived with him for 1 before he threatened to beat the crap out of me the first time. He raised his hand but didn't hit me. I told him at the time that if he ever laid a finger on me, I would call the cops and have him tossed out so fast it would make his head spin.

3 years later he threatened to beat the crap out of me again and I ended things. He was increasingly subtley abusive, jealous and control in front of all his friends and family members. If they didn't find it apalling, why should I have? He was charming when he wanted to be and when he was cruel he was always apologetic and tried to make up for it. He was always totally into me - proposed, great ring, wanted to have kids.

This is how they reel you in - smooth in the beginning, isolate you from your own peers, try to get you tied down economically so you can't leave and tie you to them with kids. It's the rare abuser who starts out hitting you.

+1

Charming is a good indicator!