Anonymous wrote:

I do what needs to be done without the threat of punishment because I know that if it ever got to the point at work where they had to threaten me with punishment, my career would be over and I might as well find another job. Nevertheless, I am well aware that my employers have the ability to punish me if it comes to that, and this awareness affects my behavior.

Whether or not you dislike "authoritarianism" is irrelevant. Authority exists, in the government, the workplace, and the home. And it is conserved - either you have it , or someone else does. In my home, I am the parent, and that means I have the authority. You are not doing your kids any favors by pretending that authority does not exist and not using the authority you have. You are one of the weak, spineless parents I see all the time who let their kids run wild. No doubt you will be surprised and dismayed when your awful children turn out to be defiant and irresponsible.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Oh? And as a responsible adult, you don't have to be obedient to authority? And your actions don't have consequences?

When your 20-something kid gets canned for ignoring her boss, you know who to blame.

Part of being a "self-directed adult" is knowing that rocks will fall on your head if you don't direct yourself properly. The teenager here hasn't gotten that message yet, and therefore still needs external direction combined with penalties for failure to comply with direction.

As a responsible adult, is this the reason you do what people in authority tell you to do: because the people in authority will punish you if you don't? Maybe it is. But I don't like authoritarianism; not in the government, not in in my workplace, and not in my family.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He put the items in the living room before school on purpose because he knew I wanted it decluttered for guests coming today. He was about to leave for school. If he didn’t move it then, I would have to move it. And in fact, saying, “Please clean your mess before dinner.” Just results in... him not cleaning his mess before dinner. I’m actually not a super authoritarian person in general. He’s going out of his way to be defiant and that’s what I need help sorting out.

Oh, I would clean up right behind him... with a garbage bag. And nothing would be replaced!

I really can't imagine making my kids clean up their school books before dinner, they have more homework.

I feel like there are some really OCDish people on this thread.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, my son was exactly like yours 10 years ago. I really feel for you, it was a tough situation. Every strategy I tried did not work, just made things worse. I finally realized that I couldn’t change him, I could only change myself. I ended up doing the opposite of what most PPs have been saying. I basically ignored everything he did or didn’t do, didn’t ask him to help, and just spoke to him in a friendly way, no matter how irritating his behavior was. I changed my mindset to unconditional love, and expected nothing in return, no chores, no obedience, hardest thing I ever lived through. But by changing my response to him, a miracle occurred. He eventually started talking to me. He smiled more, our relationship improved. Little by little, he matured, and started doing nice things to help out. Believe me, it was such a struggle for me. But by treating him respectfully, even though he was disrespectful toward me, things really turned around. It was really hard to not pick up his rope and engage in his game. I’m not sure it would work with your son, but it’s worth a try. My son is now a responsible young adult and we have a great relationship. Good luck op.

NP. Thank you for sharing. I just recently came to the same decision and wondered if I was doing the right thing.

I did the same thing. It waxes and wanes but our relationship was better in a matter of weeks.

It's the nagging thing, we just don't see it that way we see it as discipline.

Honestly, I’ve never been a nag because I’ve akways had to pick my battles. But I see it as parenting- teaching her to be polite, follow rules, take care of her things, how to treat people, be responsible, life skills like cleaning and laundry, but she thinks any expectations or accountability is oppressive. I feel like all that’s left for me to try is to give up and cross my fingers that we’ve modeled well enough she’ll do these things when she matures.

Laundry is a good example. You don't have to nag them, direct them, tell them it is time to do laundry. Either they have clean clothes or they wear dirty clothes. Unless you are dealing with some disability, most kids want clean clothes.

You just let it be. My child has had to wear dirty clothes, spray them with febreeze... that is learning.

Most mom's would have freaked out and punished the child, I let him wear dirty clothes.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He put the items in the living room before school on purpose because he knew I wanted it decluttered for guests coming today. He was about to leave for school. If he didn’t move it then, I would have to move it. And in fact, saying, “Please clean your mess before dinner.” Just results in... him not cleaning his mess before dinner. I’m actually not a super authoritarian person in general. He’s going out of his way to be defiant and that’s what I need help sorting out.

Oh, I would clean up right behind him... with a garbage bag. And nothing would be replaced!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, my son was exactly like yours 10 years ago. I really feel for you, it was a tough situation. Every strategy I tried did not work, just made things worse. I finally realized that I couldn’t change him, I could only change myself. I ended up doing the opposite of what most PPs have been saying. I basically ignored everything he did or didn’t do, didn’t ask him to help, and just spoke to him in a friendly way, no matter how irritating his behavior was. I changed my mindset to unconditional love, and expected nothing in return, no chores, no obedience, hardest thing I ever lived through. But by changing my response to him, a miracle occurred. He eventually started talking to me. He smiled more, our relationship improved. Little by little, he matured, and started doing nice things to help out. Believe me, it was such a struggle for me. But by treating him respectfully, even though he was disrespectful toward me, things really turned around. It was really hard to not pick up his rope and engage in his game. I’m not sure it would work with your son, but it’s worth a try. My son is now a responsible young adult and we have a great relationship. Good luck op.

NP. Thank you for sharing. I just recently came to the same decision and wondered if I was doing the right thing.

I did the same thing. It waxes and wanes but our relationship was better in a matter of weeks.

It's the nagging thing, we just don't see it that way we see it as discipline.

Honestly, I’ve never been a nag because I’ve akways had to pick my battles. But I see it as parenting- teaching her to be polite, follow rules, take care of her things, how to treat people, be responsible, life skills like cleaning and laundry, but she thinks any expectations or accountability is oppressive. I feel like all that’s left for me to try is to give up and cross my fingers that we’ve modeled well enough she’ll do these things when she matures.

Laundry is a good example. You don't have to nag them, direct them, tell them it is time to do laundry. Either they have clean clothes or they wear dirty clothes. Unless you are dealing with some disability, most kids want clean clothes.

You just let it be. My child has had to wear dirty clothes, spray them with febreeze... that is learning.

Most mom's would have freaked out and punished the child, I let him wear dirty clothes.

And what if you have to go somewhere that has expectations of being dressed neatly, like church, or a band concert? And your child refuses to groom himself or put on appropriate dress? What happens when your kid doesn't care one whit about looks or clothes and would go days without changing underwear, washing hair, dirty shirts etc? I've actually tried not saying a word and DS really doesn't give a fig and really didn't change his underwear for more than an entire week (during which he also didn't shower). And never cares about the food stains on a shirt. Never brushes his hair, etc. And what, if you stay back, you don't get a miraculously changed child who is suddenly pleasant and suddenly wants to be neat and clean?

Anonymous wrote:

Oh? And as a responsible adult, you don't have to be obedient to authority? And your actions don't have consequences?

When your 20-something kid gets canned for ignoring her boss, you know who to blame.

Part of being a "self-directed adult" is knowing that rocks will fall on your head if you don't direct yourself properly. The teenager here hasn't gotten that message yet, and therefore still needs external direction combined with penalties for failure to comply with direction.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Natural consequence. He borrowed something of yours and left it out refuses to put it away when asked. Then from now on he is not allowed to borrow items belonging to you, until he can demonstrate being responsible. If he ever hopes to borrow something as big as the car, he needs to show he is respectful and responsible.

If he needs a ride somewhere, or other non essential favor then respond “No. It’s ok. I don’t need to do that right now.”

The only place I drive him is to his activity. Which I pay for (at the beginning of the year).

Anonymous wrote:He put the items in the living room before school on purpose because he knew I wanted it decluttered for guests coming today. He was about to leave for school. If he didn’t move it then, I would have to move it. And in fact, saying, “Please clean your mess before dinner.” Just results in... him not cleaning his mess before dinner. I’m actually not a super authoritarian person in general. He’s going out of his way to be defiant and that’s what I need help sorting out.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:my teen lost her bedroom door for continued slamming of said door. I finally said 'if you slam that door again, it's gone". she promptly slammed it and it was off the hinges within 10 minutes.
it was a wake up call that we laugh about now 5 years later.
she does say that I was stricter than most moms but just yesterday she thanked me for sending her to college with some basic "take care of your surroundings" skills. she struggled with roommates freshman year who didnt know how to live without their moms (or housekeepers?) picking up after them or providing everything magically (my kid was the only one to buy to for their suite all year).
remember. we are all trying to grow responsible adults.

Losing the door is a logical consequence of slamming the door. Losing the door is not a logical consequence of failing to pick up socks or take your dishes to the kitchen or leave your hairbrush lying around or...

You don't understand how punishment works. It is not necessary or even desirable for the punishment to have some "logical" connection to the infraction. It is only necessary for the punishment to be something the target dislikes - i.e., punishment must punish - so that they understand that when you tell them to do something (or not do something), disobedience will be painful for them. Take away phone, take away screen time, ground them, take away their door, none of this has a "logical" connection to most infractions, but it gets their attention precisely because they dislike it intensely.

It is not a bad thing for them to have a question mark in their mind, "what will mom do if I defy her?"

Yes, if obedience to parental authority is your goal, then your approach works (for as long as your child is under your control). But obedience to parental authority is not my goal. Raising a responsible, self-directed adult is my goal.

Anonymous wrote:

And what if you have to go somewhere that has expectations of being dressed neatly, like church, or a band concert? And your child refuses to groom himself or put on appropriate dress? What happens when your kid doesn't care one whit about looks or clothes and would go days without changing underwear, washing hair, dirty shirts etc? I've actually tried not saying a word and DS really doesn't give a fig and really didn't change his underwear for more than an entire week (during which he also didn't shower). And never cares about the food stains on a shirt. Never brushes his hair, etc. And what, if you stay back, you don't get a miraculously changed child who is suddenly pleasant and suddenly wants to be neat and clean?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, my son was exactly like yours 10 years ago. I really feel for you, it was a tough situation. Every strategy I tried did not work, just made things worse. I finally realized that I couldn’t change him, I could only change myself. I ended up doing the opposite of what most PPs have been saying. I basically ignored everything he did or didn’t do, didn’t ask him to help, and just spoke to him in a friendly way, no matter how irritating his behavior was. I changed my mindset to unconditional love, and expected nothing in return, no chores, no obedience, hardest thing I ever lived through. But by changing my response to him, a miracle occurred. He eventually started talking to me. He smiled more, our relationship improved. Little by little, he matured, and started doing nice things to help out. Believe me, it was such a struggle for me. But by treating him respectfully, even though he was disrespectful toward me, things really turned around. It was really hard to not pick up his rope and engage in his game. I’m not sure it would work with your son, but it’s worth a try. My son is now a responsible young adult and we have a great relationship. Good luck op.

NP. Thank you for sharing. I just recently came to the same decision and wondered if I was doing the right thing.

I did the same thing. It waxes and wanes but our relationship was better in a matter of weeks.

It's the nagging thing, we just don't see it that way we see it as discipline.

Honestly, I’ve never been a nag because I’ve akways had to pick my battles. But I see it as parenting- teaching her to be polite, follow rules, take care of her things, how to treat people, be responsible, life skills like cleaning and laundry, but she thinks any expectations or accountability is oppressive. I feel like all that’s left for me to try is to give up and cross my fingers that we’ve modeled well enough she’ll do these things when she matures.

Laundry is a good example. You don't have to nag them, direct them, tell them it is time to do laundry. Either they have clean clothes or they wear dirty clothes. Unless you are dealing with some disability, most kids want clean clothes.

You just let it be. My child has had to wear dirty clothes, spray them with febreeze... that is learning.

Most mom's would have freaked out and punished the child, I let him wear dirty clothes.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, my son was exactly like yours 10 years ago. I really feel for you, it was a tough situation. Every strategy I tried did not work, just made things worse. I finally realized that I couldn’t change him, I could only change myself. I ended up doing the opposite of what most PPs have been saying. I basically ignored everything he did or didn’t do, didn’t ask him to help, and just spoke to him in a friendly way, no matter how irritating his behavior was. I changed my mindset to unconditional love, and expected nothing in return, no chores, no obedience, hardest thing I ever lived through. But by changing my response to him, a miracle occurred. He eventually started talking to me. He smiled more, our relationship improved. Little by little, he matured, and started doing nice things to help out. Believe me, it was such a struggle for me. But by treating him respectfully, even though he was disrespectful toward me, things really turned around. It was really hard to not pick up his rope and engage in his game. I’m not sure it would work with your son, but it’s worth a try. My son is now a responsible young adult and we have a great relationship. Good luck op.

NP. Thank you for sharing. I just recently came to the same decision and wondered if I was doing the right thing.

I did the same thing. It waxes and wanes but our relationship was better in a matter of weeks.

It's the nagging thing, we just don't see it that way we see it as discipline.

Honestly, I’ve never been a nag because I’ve akways had to pick my battles. But I see it as parenting- teaching her to be polite, follow rules, take care of her things, how to treat people, be responsible, life skills like cleaning and laundry, but she thinks any expectations or accountability is oppressive. I feel like all that’s left for me to try is to give up and cross my fingers that we’ve modeled well enough she’ll do these things when she matures.

Laundry is a good example. You don't have to nag them, direct them, tell them it is time to do laundry. Either they have clean clothes or they wear dirty clothes. Unless you are dealing with some disability, most kids want clean clothes.

You just let it be. My child has had to wear dirty clothes, spray them with febreeze... that is learning.

Most mom's would have freaked out and punished the child, I let him wear dirty clothes.