Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How big is the VHC site? Could they put fields at Kenmore but the classrooms there?

Or is this Career Center or nothing? I know that nice big plot at Kenmore is untouchable for a high school building but something has to be built there.

There is a middle school and elementary school already at that site.

The elementary school sits on four acres of its own. The middle school sits on well over 30 acres. The Career center site is 12 acres. Yorktown sits on 11+ acres (plus the adjacent Greenbrier Park facilities). TJMS/Community Center and the new elementary school sit on 12 acres (plus the 15 acres of adjacent parkland/facilities for a total of 27 acres).

That's 2000 students on Yorktown's 11 acres; 1750 elementary and middle school students on 12 acres at TJ; up to 4,000 students being considered for the Career Center's 12 acres; and a mere 1000-ish students on 32 plus acres at Kenmore (not counting Carlin Springs students and their four acres).

So, you are suggesting that we can't put a high school or anything else on 36+ acres of land because there is already a middle school and an elementary school (which are separated by about 30 acres)?!?!?

Yes. That is what the SB and CB are saying. Welcome to the conversation. Now move on.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Middle Class families south of 50 are not looking to be forced to send there kids to a school where they have no opportunities for band, theatre and sports because all of those things are forced to share 1 swing space. This on top of their students losing 3 instruction hours every swimming day while they are bused all over the county for the required swim classes to an offsite pool. Or being forced to have school days that last twice as long as everywhere else in the county to accommodate the fact that there are no facilities on site. They will show up in their matching t-shirts and fight this and its going to get ugly.


No one has said they will have to do any of those things. Use your imagination for something productive, like making the CC a functional site.
Also, totally stupid to suggest music / theatre can’t happen on campus.

Someone on either the County Board or the School Board has said literally all of those things. You just aren't paying attention.

At the CIP the School Board discussed having 2300+ Students at a Career Center school with one room that would be both an auditorium and a gymnasium. Which means that you can't have a band, a chorus, a theatre and a basketball team all using the space at the same time. Where and when would they practice that doesn't overlap with each other? That means that 2300 students would need to be bused to the other high schools to participate in those programs, which means that either they get shortened instruction time so they can get to the other schools, or that all of the other schools have to wait a hour for those students to get bused over before they can start their practices. Which lengthens the school day for everyone. And thats not even getting into what happens when you have 3500-4000+ students vying for limited slots on a team, or in a play.

And this seems just fine to county leadership. At the joint County/School Board working session about the Career Center Erik Gutshall remarked, “I think that equal does not necessarily, when we talk about equal education, equal quality, does not necessarily mean the same.” He then went on to describe how high school students at the Career Center site could possibly fulfill their PE/aquatics education requirement by being bused to other Arlington High Schools as part of an “exchange student” program. Libby Garvey, suggested expanding the high school day from 6 am to 11 pm to accommodate all this busing.

Even assuming Libby was exaggerating to make a point, what parent is going to sign there kid up for a choice school with 3 hour longer days to accommodate travel back and forth to one of the real high schools as an "exchange student." And if they can't make it choice then they will just force the neighborhood to go there.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How big is the VHC site? Could they put fields at Kenmore but the classrooms there?

Or is this Career Center or nothing? I know that nice big plot at Kenmore is untouchable for a high school building but something has to be built there.

There is a middle school and elementary school already at that site.

She means something else. That's more land than one MS and one ES need. If we can't build anything else on it, we need to sell or swap it for land that we can build more density on.

Uh huh...
and the neighborhood is fighting it

And a land swap... swap what exactly? What land are you looking at that would be a fair trade? Where would the current middle and elementary school go?

It’s the career center. Get used to it.

That doesn't mean the land at Kenmore gets to sit there unused or barely used. APS will need to use that land one way or another and probably sooner rather than later.

How old are your kids?
Mine is a toddler. Ok, sure... Kenmore becomes something else someday, but I wouldn’t count on that even being explored for another 6/7 years. So, it’s really not something to worry about right now.

My kids are in ES, and it is something we need to worry about now. They need a comprehensive plan otherwise neither my kids nor yours will have places to got to school. I don't want to be back at this in five years when they need to move Montessori. Make a public plan NOW. None of this we'll vote and then change course in 6 months and end-run the community.

Well then You definitely need to get on board with the career center being a full fourth.

I really don't. We won't be zoned there, so, not my problem. If they make it a second HB, they will fill the seats, amenities or not.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How big is the VHC site? Could they put fields at Kenmore but the classrooms there?

Or is this Career Center or nothing? I know that nice big plot at Kenmore is untouchable for a high school building but something has to be built there.

There is a middle school and elementary school already at that site.

The elementary school sits on four acres of its own. The middle school sits on well over 30 acres. The Career center site is 12 acres. Yorktown sits on 11+ acres (plus the adjacent Greenbrier Park facilities). TJMS/Community Center and the new elementary school sit on 12 acres (plus the 15 acres of adjacent parkland/facilities for a total of 27 acres).

That's 2000 students on Yorktown's 11 acres; 1750 elementary and middle school students on 12 acres at TJ; up to 4,000 students being considered for the Career Center's 12 acres; and a mere 1000-ish students on 32 plus acres at Kenmore (not counting Carlin Springs students and their four acres).

So, you are suggesting that we can't put a high school or anything else on 36+ acres of land because there is already a middle school and an elementary school (which are separated by about 30 acres)?!?!?

Anonymous wrote:I seem to recall that, before the two years of working groups that were needed to agree to build Fleet at TJ, the original plan for a new South Arlington elementary school was to build a second ES on the Kenmore campus and move Montessori there (I think the SB voted it out and everything). That got nixed by the community and delayed bringing S. Arlington elementary seats online by years. How ironic if now - in order to demolish Henry to make room for HS seats at the CC - that plan was revived and a school built for Montessori at Kenmore. I think it would be a great plan. Something has to go on that campus.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How big is the VHC site? Could they put fields at Kenmore but the classrooms there?

Or is this Career Center or nothing? I know that nice big plot at Kenmore is untouchable for a high school building but something has to be built there.

There is a middle school and elementary school already at that site.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think its really misguided to assume that just declaring the new Career Center space a second HB, or any other choice program will somehow make people want to go there. Arlington Tech is already under-enrolled. There is an entire thread on this board about why people aren't signing up for Arlington Tech and the most common response is the lack of sports/arts/amenities. Why would an extra 2000 students volunteer to go there when they can't get 300 students to want to go there? Even with a different curriculum option?

And the thing that always gets ignored about HB is that they have facilities and amenities! If you look at HB they have a really strong performing arts focus and have facilities to match that. That new HB school will have field space, an indoor gym, art studio, big theatre, separate black box studio, drama room, orchestra room and a kiln room. The program has 5 dedicated stories for 700 students an enormously expensive brand new building. No wonder the wait list is a million years long. The current CIP plan for the Career Center is throw a new story on a dilapidated building and build 1 room that is both a gym and theater for over twice the number students. No fields, no anything else. No one is going to run to sign up for that no matter how many times they call it a second HB. Cause it won't be a 2nd HB. And just calling it STEM isn't going to trick families into sending their kids there either. Not without state of the art science or tech facilities (robotics rooms, science labs, ect.)

I've even heard talk of making it a performing arts choice school. With no auditorium. Or rehearsal space. Again who is going to sign up for that?

The school board/county are trying to build the cheapest lowest quality school they can get away with and pretending that people will choose to attend it is ridiculous. If they aren't forced to build a quality school, then overcrowding and lack of opportunities will impact every high school student when the neighborhood schools are overloaded and the Career Center is still empty.

But they don't have the money to do anything else, without cutting other needed construction. At least if it's choice, nobody is going to be forced to go to a ill-conceived "program." There are plenty of kids who are not college-bound, or who are maybe not liking to get into a traditional or elite four-year college. This is their program.

Anonymous wrote:

I think its really misguided to assume that just declaring the new Career Center space a second HB, or any other choice program will somehow make people want to go there. Arlington Tech is already under-enrolled. There is an entire thread on this board about why people aren't signing up for Arlington Tech and the most common response is the lack of sports/arts/amenities. Why would an extra 2000 students volunteer to go there when they can't get 300 students to want to go there? Even with a different curriculum option?

And the thing that always gets ignored about HB is that they have facilities and amenities! If you look at HB they have a really strong performing arts focus and have facilities to match that. That new HB school will have field space, an indoor gym, art studio, big theatre, separate black box studio, drama room, orchestra room and a kiln room. The program has 5 dedicated stories for 700 students an enormously expensive brand new building. No wonder the wait list is a million years long. The current CIP plan for the Career Center is throw a new story on a dilapidated building and build 1 room that is both a gym and theater for over twice the number students. No fields, no anything else. No one is going to run to sign up for that no matter how many times they call it a second HB. Cause it won't be a 2nd HB. And just calling it STEM isn't going to trick families into sending their kids there either. Not without state of the art science or tech facilities (robotics rooms, science labs, ect.)

I've even heard talk of making it a performing arts choice school. With no auditorium. Or rehearsal space. Again who is going to sign up for that?

The school board/county are trying to build the cheapest lowest quality school they can get away with and pretending that people will choose to attend it is ridiculous. If they aren't forced to build a quality school, then overcrowding and lack of opportunities will impact every high school student when the neighborhood schools are overloaded and the Career Center is still empty.


But they don't have the money to do anything else, without cutting other needed construction. At least if it's choice, nobody is going to be forced to go to a ill-conceived "program." There are plenty of kids who are not college-bound, or who are maybe not liking to get into a traditional or elite four-year college. This is their program.

There are not 2000+ students in Arlington who are going to willingly go to a non-college prep program. And that is the size the County needs the Career Center to be for the overcrowding to be alleviated. They are having a hard time getting 400 students to go to that program. Where are the other 1600 students going to come from? When no one signs up what will they do? Eventually Arlington is going to have to spend some amount of money to attract enough students (equally from all 3 other high schools) to make thier system work. Or make it a neighborhood school which also means spending money.

The county has pursued population growth policies through its development, zoning and affordable housing powers. Now they (and we) are going to have to pay up for the consequences of those policies.

I think its really misguided to assume that just declaring the new Career Center space a second HB, or any other choice program will somehow make people want to go there. Arlington Tech is already under-enrolled. There is an entire thread on this board about why people aren't signing up for Arlington Tech and the most common response is the lack of sports/arts/amenities. Why would an extra 2000 students volunteer to go there when they can't get 300 students to want to go there? Even with a different curriculum option?

And the thing that always gets ignored about HB is that they have facilities and amenities! If you look at HB they have a really strong performing arts focus and have facilities to match that. That new HB school will have field space, an indoor gym, art studio, big theatre, separate black box studio, drama room, orchestra room and a kiln room. The program has 5 dedicated stories for 700 students an enormously expensive brand new building. No wonder the wait list is a million years long. The current CIP plan for the Career Center is throw a new story on a dilapidated building and build 1 room that is both a gym and theater for over twice the number students. No fields, no anything else. No one is going to run to sign up for that no matter how many times they call it a second HB. Cause it won't be a 2nd HB. And just calling it STEM isn't going to trick families into sending their kids there either. Not without state of the art science or tech facilities (robotics rooms, science labs, ect.)

I've even heard talk of making it a performing arts choice school. With no auditorium. Or rehearsal space. Again who is going to sign up for that?

The school board/county are trying to build the cheapest lowest quality school they can get away with and pretending that people will choose to attend it is ridiculous. If they aren't forced to build a quality school, then overcrowding and lack of opportunities will impact every high school student when the neighborhood schools are overloaded and the Career Center is still empty.


But they don't have the money to do anything else, without cutting other needed construction. At least if it's choice, nobody is going to be forced to go to a ill-conceived "program." There are plenty of kids who are not college-bound, or who are maybe not liking to get into a traditional or elite four-year college. This is their program.

Anonymous wrote:I think its really misguided to assume that just declaring the new Career Center space a second HB, or any other choice program will somehow make people want to go there. Arlington Tech is already under-enrolled. There is an entire thread on this board about why people aren't signing up for Arlington Tech and the most common response is the lack of sports/arts/amenities. Why would an extra 2000 students volunteer to go there when they can't get 300 students to want to go there? Even with a different curriculum option?

And the thing that always gets ignored about HB is that they have facilities and amenities! If you look at HB they have a really strong performing arts focus and have facilities to match that. That new HB school will have field space, an indoor gym, art studio, big theatre, separate black box studio, drama room, orchestra room and a kiln room. The program has 5 dedicated stories for 700 students an enormously expensive brand new building. No wonder the wait list is a million years long. The current CIP plan for the Career Center is throw a new story on a dilapidated building and build 1 room that is both a gym and theater for over twice the number students. No fields, no anything else. No one is going to run to sign up for that no matter how many times they call it a second HB. Cause it won't be a 2nd HB. And just calling it STEM isn't going to trick families into sending their kids there either. Not without state of the art science or tech facilities (robotics rooms, science labs, ect.)

I've even heard talk of making it a performing arts choice school. With no auditorium. Or rehearsal space. Again who is going to sign up for that?

The school board/county are trying to build the cheapest lowest quality school they can get away with and pretending that people will choose to attend it is ridiculous. If they aren't forced to build a quality school, then overcrowding and lack of opportunities will impact every high school student when the neighborhood schools are overloaded and the Career Center is still empty.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I live really close to the Career Center. I agree that the whole site should be overhauled, but I'm not sold on the fact that it needs to be a comprehensive high school. I recognize there is a shortage of HS seats, but I also remember that Wakefield was not at capacity. I think a 2nd HB would be great, given the popularity of the program, but will that result in a North HB and a South HB? Or will all kids who apply be evenly distributed? If the Career Center becomes a 4th comprehensive, I don't see how it will have all the same amenities, without the EDC property being used, and even then, I don't think it works unless it's a 6 story plus building -- with a roof top pool? As great as it would be for the kiddos to go to a new school, it only works if its a choice school or we shift the boundaries, to take pressure off W-L, and I think that will result in groups jockeying to go there and stay out of Wakefield, leaving Wakefield full of FARMs. You'd have to make the Career Center a neighborhood school and Wakefield an option school to prevent segregation or something. As much as my neighbors want their own HS, it just doesn't seem reasonable.

Given the size of Arlington, you'd be better off telling HS kids to find their own way to school (via public transit or cycling) and randomly assigning them or putting a grade at each of the presumably 4 locations.

I can only assume you haven't spent any time looking at the projections data. Otherwise I cannot imagine how you could say all of this with a straight face.

I have. South Arlington is exploding with kids. What I am worried about is that we will end up with a bifricated school system, worse than now. Seems like we're trying to get a UMC South high...

I live really close to the Career Center. I agree that the whole site should be overhauled, but I'm not sold on the fact that it needs to be a comprehensive high school. I recognize there is a shortage of HS seats, but I also remember that Wakefield was not at capacity. I think a 2nd HB would be great, given the popularity of the program, but will that result in a North HB and a South HB? Or will all kids who apply be evenly distributed? If the Career Center becomes a 4th comprehensive, I don't see how it will have all the same amenities, without the EDC property being used, and even then, I don't think it works unless it's a 6 story plus building -- with a roof top pool? As great as it would be for the kiddos to go to a new school, it only works if its a choice school or we shift the boundaries, to take pressure off W-L, and I think that will result in groups jockeying to go there and stay out of Wakefield, leaving Wakefield full of FARMs. You'd have to make the Career Center a neighborhood school and Wakefield an option school to prevent segregation or something. As much as my neighbors want their own HS, it just doesn't seem reasonable.

Given the size of Arlington, you'd be better off telling HS kids to find their own way to school (via public transit or cycling) and randomly assigning them or putting a grade at each of the presumably 4 locations.


I can only assume you haven't spent any time looking at the projections data. Otherwise I cannot imagine how you could say all of this with a straight face.


I have. South Arlington is exploding with kids. What I am worried about is that we will end up with a bifricated school system, worse than now. Seems like we're trying to get a UMC South high...

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How big is the VHC site? Could they put fields at Kenmore but the classrooms there?

Or is this Career Center or nothing? I know that nice big plot at Kenmore is untouchable for a high school building but something has to be built there.

There is a middle school and elementary school already at that site.

She means something else. That's more land than one MS and one ES need. If we can't build anything else on it, we need to sell or swap it for land that we can build more density on.

Uh huh...
and the neighborhood is fighting it

And a land swap... swap what exactly? What land are you looking at that would be a fair trade? Where would the current middle and elementary school go?

It’s the career center. Get used to it.

That doesn't mean the land at Kenmore gets to sit there unused or barely used. APS will need to use that land one way or another and probably sooner rather than later.

How old are your kids?
Mine is a toddler. Ok, sure... Kenmore becomes something else someday, but I wouldn’t count on that even being explored for another 6/7 years. So, it’s really not something to worry about right now.

My kids are in ES, and it is something we need to worry about now. They need a comprehensive plan otherwise neither my kids nor yours will have places to got to school. I don't want to be back at this in five years when they need to move Montessori. Make a public plan NOW. None of this we'll vote and then change course in 6 months and end-run the community.

Well then You definitely need to get on board with the career center being a full fourth.

I really don't. We won't be zoned there, so, not my problem. If they make it a second HB, they will fill the seats, amenities or not.

I live really close to the Career Center. I agree that the whole site should be overhauled, but I'm not sold on the fact that it needs to be a comprehensive high school. I recognize there is a shortage of HS seats, but I also remember that Wakefield was not at capacity. I think a 2nd HB would be great, given the popularity of the program, but will that result in a North HB and a South HB? Or will all kids who apply be evenly distributed? If the Career Center becomes a 4th comprehensive, I don't see how it will have all the same amenities, without the EDC property being used, and even then, I don't think it works unless it's a 6 story plus building -- with a roof top pool? As great as it would be for the kiddos to go to a new school, it only works if its a choice school or we shift the boundaries, to take pressure off W-L, and I think that will result in groups jockeying to go there and stay out of Wakefield, leaving Wakefield full of FARMs. You'd have to make the Career Center a neighborhood school and Wakefield an option school to prevent segregation or something. As much as my neighbors want their own HS, it just doesn't seem reasonable.

Given the size of Arlington, you'd be better off telling HS kids to find their own way to school (via public transit or cycling) and randomly assigning them or putting a grade at each of the presumably 4 locations.

I can only assume you haven't spent any time looking at the projections data. Otherwise I cannot imagine how you could say all of this with a straight face.