Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why would you be upset about something so small? Dedication and pride in one's country (native or adopted) should not be an issue. Your kid should stand because it's not about the President, it's about the women and men in the armed forces who serve EACH.AND.EVERY.DAY. so that your kid has certain freedoms.[i] Why can't you and your child have respect for these people? Why are you being so hostile about your child being grateful for the freedoms that he currently has?

This is arrant nonsense. Rather, it is a right wing talking point - a post facto justification in an attempt to shame people into acting the way the right wing deems appropriate.

Can you please point to the part that references the members of the armed forces? Like many people on this thread, I have said the Pledge well over a thousand times, so I will save you the trouble - you can't. It doesn't exist. So, for you, the Pledge is about honoring servicemen and women. But you decided that for yourself. And like you, the rest of us get to decide for ourselves. For some, it is about democratic ideals; for others, it is about a belief in a nation that we grew up believing is great; for others, it is incompatible with their deeply held religious beliefs (and I'll wager that in other contexts, you are really big on "religious freedom," just not when it is a different religion); and for others, it (and the flag) are symbols of oppression of various groups of people. You don't get to tell anyone what the Pledge, or the flag, means to them, and the hubris to think you can is directly contrary to being "grateful for the freedoms" you claim to support.

Why do you object to standing for the flag? Seriously. As for our military, they fight for what the flag represents. It sounds to me like you do not like our country. Just because you CAN sit, does not mean it is not disrespectful to others in the class or to our military who fight for the flag and country. It is disrespectful not to stand. If you don't choose to say the pledge, that's on you. No one notices, I guess. If they do, it shows who you are (unless you are not a citizen of this country.) It shows that you put your personal gripes over country. You can protest policies. You can protest our leaders. That's fine. But, you should not be protesting our country and what it stands for. The flag is a symbol. That is why people get upset when the football players kneel. They are using the freedom the flag stands for to protest what the flag stands for. It's kind of counterintuitive.

Sure, Kapernick has the right to kneel. And, people have the right to object to what he is doing. It shows what he is--someone who is ungrateful for the opportunities he has been given. He has plenty of opportunities to object to policies and behaviors outside of thumbing his nose at our country.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why would you be upset about something so small? Dedication and pride in one's country (native or adopted) should not be an issue. Your kid should stand because it's not about the President, it's about the women and men in the armed forces who serve EACH.AND.EVERY.DAY. so that your kid has certain freedoms. Why can't you and your child have respect for these people? Why are you being so hostile about your child being grateful for the freedoms that he currently has?

This is arrant nonsense. Rather, it is a right wing talking point - a post facto justification in an attempt to shame people into acting the way the right wing deems appropriate.

Can you please point to the part that references the members of the armed forces? Like many people on this thread, I have said the Pledge well over a thousand times, so I will save you the trouble - you can't. It doesn't exist. So, for you, the Pledge is about honoring servicemen and women. But you decided that for yourself. And like you, the rest of us get to decide for ourselves. For some, it is about democratic ideals; for others, it is about a belief in a nation that we grew up believing is great; for others, it is incompatible with their deeply held religious beliefs (and I'll wager that in other contexts, you are really big on "religious freedom," just not when it is a different religion); and for others, it (and the flag) are symbols of oppression of various groups of people. You don't get to tell anyone what the Pledge, or the flag, means to them, and the hubris to think you can is directly contrary to being "grateful for the freedoms" you claim to support.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Go to Iran

I despise people like you. No, I will not go to Iran, Iraq, North Korea, China, etc. etc. I'm an American and I am legally entitled to NOT stand for the pledge if I so choose. This is so whether you like it or not. As others pointed out, there are many reasons why someone may not want to do so. This practice is a form of weird, chest-thumping patriotism that is not present in many free societies across the planet. And, it was one that was really not that big of a deal until the last 50 years or so. Then it became some litmus test for what constitutes "being an American." ANd what's really strange about you, is the drivel you spew is fundamentally at odds with the pledge (as another poster pointed out). Stupid.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Correct. You can. But it is not required. That's entirely the point.

1. We are talking about classrooms.
2. We are not talking about pledging. We are talking about standing. Teachers have kids stand for all sorts of things: stretching, singing, following directions, etc.
3. Standing for the pledge is not the same thing as saying the pledge. It is the same as being silent when others are praying. It is the respectful thing to do.
4. No one is requiring anyone to pledge.

If it is the same as being silent, then why not let kids show respect just by being silent?

Anonymous wrote:

Correct. You can. But it is not required. That's entirely the point.

1. We are talking about classrooms.
2. We are not talking about pledging. We are talking about standing. Teachers have kids stand for all sorts of things: stretching, singing, following directions, etc.
3. Standing for the pledge is not the same thing as saying the pledge. It is the same as being silent when others are praying. It is the respectful thing to do.
4. No one is requiring anyone to pledge.

Correct. You can. But it is not required. That's entirely the point.

Anonymous wrote:Another:

It sounds to me like you do not like our country.


And there it is - if you don't stand for the pledge of allegiance you don't like the US. Nonsense. Rather, I have a clear picture of this country, not some idealized, whitewashed fantasy version, and I can both love it and recognize its flaws at the same time. (FWIW, I am an upper middle class white Protestant western European male - I'm so white I'm almost clear, and if there were a picture of the person least likely to be discriminated against in this country, it could be me. That doesn't mean the country is perfect.)

What does your color have to do with anything? And, no one said our country is perfect. You can recognize its flaws and still pledge allegiance to it.

Anonymous wrote:

Why do you object to standing for the flag? Seriously. As for our military, they fight for what the flag represents. It sounds to me like you do not like our country. Just because you CAN sit, does not mean it is not disrespectful to others in the class or to our military who fight for the flag and country. It is disrespectful not to stand. If you don't choose to say the pledge, that's on you. No one notices, I guess. If they do, it shows who you are (unless you are not a citizen of this country.) It shows that you put your personal gripes over country. You can protest policies. You can protest our leaders. That's fine. But, you should not be protesting our country and what it stands for. The flag is a symbol. That is why people get upset when the football players kneel. They are using the freedom the flag stands for to protest what the flag stands for. It's kind of counterintuitive.

Sure, Kapernick has the right to kneel. And, people have the right to object to what he is doing. It shows what he is--someone who is ungrateful for the opportunities he has been given. He has plenty of opportunities to object to policies and behaviors outside of thumbing his nose at our country.

Anonymous wrote:

They are using the freedom the flag stands for to protest what the flag stands for. It's kind of counterintuitive.


It's actually the opposite of counterintuitive. Freedom to protect the government is one of the things that makes this country great.

??????Protesting the flag is freedom to protect the government?
Trying to figure this one out.

Anonymous wrote:Next:

It is disrespectful not to stand.


The Supreme Court says it isn't, and has for more than half a century. A student has to sit quietly and not disrupt the pledge. I get that you disagree, but you're simply incorrect.

Ummmm......that's not what they said. They did not address respect. It is a matter of being legal or not. You don't understand the difference? It is disrespectful of the flag and others who are standing. No one is saying it should be a law. We are discussing proper behavior. It is improper and disrespectful not to stand when others are pledging allegiance. It is not illegal.

Anonymous wrote:Another:

It sounds to me like you do not like our country.


And there it is - if you don't stand for the pledge of allegiance you don't like the US. Nonsense. Rather, I have a clear picture of this country, not some idealized, whitewashed fantasy version, and I can both love it and recognize its flaws at the same time. (FWIW, I am an upper middle class white Protestant western European male - I'm so white I'm almost clear, and if there were a picture of the person least likely to be discriminated against in this country, it could be me. That doesn't mean the country is perfect.)

What does your color have to do with anything? And, no one said our country is perfect. You can recognize its flaws and still pledge allegiance to it.

Anonymous wrote:So much to unpack in PP's post.

Let's start:

OK, but that's not the point. It's only recently that the right has hijacked the pledge of allegiance as a proxy for support of the troops. (And we'll gloss over that often the military, through no fault of their own, fights for a lot of things that have nothing to do with the flag - corporate profits, exercise of American power over others, support of dictatorial regimes . . . the list goes on.)

This is absurd. The pledge has been "hijacked"? And, the rest of your post makes it clear that you do not support our union. The military fight for our country. The rest of your post shows your beliefs.

They are using the freedom the flag stands for to protest what the flag stands for. It's kind of counterintuitive.


It's actually the opposite of counterintuitive. Freedom to protect the government is one of the things that makes this country great.

It is disrespectful not to stand.


The Supreme Court says it isn't, and has for more than half a century. A student has to sit quietly and not disrupt the pledge. I get that you disagree, but you're simply incorrect.

It sounds to me like you do not like our country.


And there it is - if you don't stand for the pledge of allegiance you don't like the US. Nonsense. Rather, I have a clear picture of this country, not some idealized, whitewashed fantasy version, and I can both love it and recognize its flaws at the same time. (FWIW, I am an upper middle class white Protestant western European male - I'm so white I'm almost clear, and if there were a picture of the person least likely to be discriminated against in this country, it could be me. That doesn't mean the country is perfect.)