Anonymous
09/26/2017 11:52
Subject: Re:why do people prefer AP schools to IB?
Not many people view IB as "more rigorous," dear.
Fairfax County is a laboratory that bears that out. Asians are the highest achieving students in the county, and there's been a large growth in the Asian population since FCPS decided on IB at numerous schools.
And what's happened is that Asians have moved primarily into the AP districts, not the IB districts, and the only IB high school that even has a lot of Asian students (Lee) has among the lowest scores for Asians in the county (average SATs in 2015-16 of 1555, compared to 1758 at nearby West Springfield, which is AP).
Fairfax County is a laboratory that bears that out. Asians are the highest achieving students in the county, and there's been a large growth in the Asian population since FCPS decided on IB at numerous schools.
And what's happened is that Asians have moved primarily into the AP districts, not the IB districts, and the only IB high school that even has a lot of Asian students (Lee) has among the lowest scores for Asians in the county (average SATs in 2015-16 of 1555, compared to 1758 at nearby West Springfield, which is AP).
Anonymous
09/26/2017 11:50
Subject: Re:why do people prefer AP schools to IB?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
A higher percentage of Woodson students graduate haven taken a substantial number of AP courses; none are slapped with a label like "non-IB diploma candidate" at an IB school. AP wins.
Loudoun residents collectively decide how much they want to spend on schools and how they want that money spent. Clearly, they have decided, through their elected officials, that IB isn't something they want, whereas they are spending a substantial amount of money to expand AOS, which will continue to offer AP courses.
How many, and how do you know?
I've worked as a counselor in an AP high school in the county that's highly regarded (retired). The PP is definitely wrong. Not all students are carrying a course load of AP courses across disciplines. I would guess far less than 20 percent of students are carrying a full AP load across the disciplines. Maybe 10 percent?
Most students decide to take AP courses in their specific strength, so a weak math student but strong writer is doing AP English/History, etc. while a weaker writer but stronger STEM student would take the AP math and sciences courses. Neither student got the most difficult check on their common app, but I would describe the rigor of their courses and strengths.
Your experience is outdated.
The data on test scores, AP/IB participation rates, and NMSFs all makes clear that AP schools have a disproportionate percentage of NoVa's high performing kids.
I retired less than three years ago. So, no. It's not outdated. It's highly relevant.
From what I know about Robinson (I have friends that work there in guidance), I think nearly 80 percent of students attempt at least one IB course. I have no idea how many are getting certificates or dabbling or going for the full diploma, though.
I looked at several pairs of similar AP and IB schools (Woodson/Robinson, McLean/Marshall, and Falls Church/Stuart). In each case, the AP schools have higher percentages of reported students taking and receiving passing scores on AP exams compared to IB exams. Surprisingly, the difference was most pronounced at McLean compared to Marshall, regarded as one of the better IB schools.
Perhaps that means that the IB exams are tougher, but it seems equally, if not more, likely that students are more receptive to taking advanced courses at the AP schools. Given that we pay more for IB, yet fewer students seem to derive benefits from it, I'm not surprised that another school system like Loudoun might look at the experience in Fairfax and say "no thanks" when it comes to IB,
Where are you getting this data? I worked at one of these sets.
AP passage rates are higher as a general point (the College Board considers a 3 to be passing but many colleges don't...I think that's a reason why its pass rates are higher).
IB pass rates are lower. Some argue it's because the IB program is graded with more rigor than the AP program. They point to the fact that students often have to re-do AP coursework to get a sufficient foundation prior to taking more advanced college coursework. IB students often have the same issue, so I don't know if that's true, but it's something bandied about.
IB is viewed as more rigorous because it requires cross disciplinary advanced studies. As I mentioned, not many AP students accomplish this, but those that do are considered as having completed the most rigorous coursework (akin to the diploma).
This does indicate that FCPS is getting FAR better value from AP than IB.
If the county wants to continue with the IB program, they should pick one or two schools (at most) to have IB.
Personally, I would get rid of it. It's just not practical.
Anonymous
09/26/2017 11:43
Subject: Re:why do people prefer AP schools to IB?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
A higher percentage of Woodson students graduate haven taken a substantial number of AP courses; none are slapped with a label like "non-IB diploma candidate" at an IB school. AP wins.
Loudoun residents collectively decide how much they want to spend on schools and how they want that money spent. Clearly, they have decided, through their elected officials, that IB isn't something they want, whereas they are spending a substantial amount of money to expand AOS, which will continue to offer AP courses.
How many, and how do you know?
I've worked as a counselor in an AP high school in the county that's highly regarded (retired). The PP is definitely wrong. Not all students are carrying a course load of AP courses across disciplines. I would guess far less than 20 percent of students are carrying a full AP load across the disciplines. Maybe 10 percent?
Most students decide to take AP courses in their specific strength, so a weak math student but strong writer is doing AP English/History, etc. while a weaker writer but stronger STEM student would take the AP math and sciences courses. Neither student got the most difficult check on their common app, but I would describe the rigor of their courses and strengths.
Your experience is outdated.
The data on test scores, AP/IB participation rates, and NMSFs all makes clear that AP schools have a disproportionate percentage of NoVa's high performing kids.
I retired less than three years ago. So, no. It's not outdated. It's highly relevant.
From what I know about Robinson (I have friends that work there in guidance), I think nearly 80 percent of students attempt at least one IB course. I have no idea how many are getting certificates or dabbling or going for the full diploma, though.
I looked at several pairs of similar AP and IB schools (Woodson/Robinson, McLean/Marshall, and Falls Church/Stuart). In each case, the AP schools have higher percentages of reported students taking and receiving passing scores on AP exams compared to IB exams. Surprisingly, the difference was most pronounced at McLean compared to Marshall, regarded as one of the better IB schools.
Perhaps that means that the IB exams are tougher, but it seems equally, if not more, likely that students are more receptive to taking advanced courses at the AP schools. Given that we pay more for IB, yet fewer students seem to derive benefits from it, I'm not surprised that another school system like Loudoun might look at the experience in Fairfax and say "no thanks" when it comes to IB,
Where are you getting this data? I worked at one of these sets.
AP passage rates are higher as a general point (the College Board considers a 3 to be passing but many colleges don't...I think that's a reason why its pass rates are higher).
IB pass rates are lower. Some argue it's because the IB program is graded with more rigor than the AP program. They point to the fact that students often have to re-do AP coursework to get a sufficient foundation prior to taking more advanced college coursework. IB students often have the same issue, so I don't know if that's true, but it's something bandied about.
IB is viewed as more rigorous because it requires cross disciplinary advanced studies. As I mentioned, not many AP students accomplish this, but those that do are considered as having completed the most rigorous coursework (akin to the diploma).
Anonymous
09/26/2017 11:31
Subject: Re:why do people prefer AP schools to IB?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
A higher percentage of Woodson students graduate haven taken a substantial number of AP courses; none are slapped with a label like "non-IB diploma candidate" at an IB school. AP wins.
Loudoun residents collectively decide how much they want to spend on schools and how they want that money spent. Clearly, they have decided, through their elected officials, that IB isn't something they want, whereas they are spending a substantial amount of money to expand AOS, which will continue to offer AP courses.
How many, and how do you know?
I've worked as a counselor in an AP high school in the county that's highly regarded (retired). The PP is definitely wrong. Not all students are carrying a course load of AP courses across disciplines. I would guess far less than 20 percent of students are carrying a full AP load across the disciplines. Maybe 10 percent?
Most students decide to take AP courses in their specific strength, so a weak math student but strong writer is doing AP English/History, etc. while a weaker writer but stronger STEM student would take the AP math and sciences courses. Neither student got the most difficult check on their common app, but I would describe the rigor of their courses and strengths.
Your experience is outdated.
The data on test scores, AP/IB participation rates, and NMSFs all makes clear that AP schools have a disproportionate percentage of NoVa's high performing kids.
I retired less than three years ago. So, no. It's not outdated. It's highly relevant.
From what I know about Robinson (I have friends that work there in guidance), I think nearly 80 percent of students attempt at least one IB course. I have no idea how many are getting certificates or dabbling or going for the full diploma, though.
I looked at several pairs of similar AP and IB schools (Woodson/Robinson, McLean/Marshall, and Falls Church/Stuart). In each case, the AP schools have higher percentages of reported students taking and receiving passing scores on AP exams compared to IB exams. Surprisingly, the difference was most pronounced at McLean compared to Marshall, regarded as one of the better IB schools.
Perhaps that means that the IB exams are tougher, but it seems equally, if not more, likely that students are more receptive to taking advanced courses at the AP schools. Given that we pay more for IB, yet fewer students seem to derive benefits from it, I'm not surprised that another school system like Loudoun might look at the experience in Fairfax and say "no thanks" when it comes to IB,
Anonymous
09/26/2017 11:16
Subject: Re:why do people prefer AP schools to IB?
Guidance counselor poster, here. Yeah, 85 percent of Robinson's class completes an IB course (http://www.ibo.org/globalassets/digital-tookit/brochures/1604-dp-testimonial-robinson-secondary-school-en.pdf). I knew I read that somewhere.
That tracks what I've seen at my AP school. Most kids try at least one or a few AP courses. Very few actually take them across disciplines.
That tracks what I've seen at my AP school. Most kids try at least one or a few AP courses. Very few actually take them across disciplines.
Anonymous
09/26/2017 11:15
Subject: Re:why do people prefer AP schools to IB?
did a google search and found this. Cannot speak for its accuracy.
IB exams are more expensive. There is a $160 registration fee each year plus a $110 fee per exam. APs are $92 per exam without an additional fee. However, many schools have financial aid and fee-waiver programs, so your actual cost could be lower.Apr 1, 2015
What's Better for You: IB or AP? College Expert Guide
blog.prepscholar.com/whats-better-for-you-ib-or-ap
Sounds like IB is much more expensive for the value.
IB exams are more expensive. There is a $160 registration fee each year plus a $110 fee per exam. APs are $92 per exam without an additional fee. However, many schools have financial aid and fee-waiver programs, so your actual cost could be lower.Apr 1, 2015
What's Better for You: IB or AP? College Expert Guide
blog.prepscholar.com/whats-better-for-you-ib-or-ap
Sounds like IB is much more expensive for the value.
Anonymous
09/26/2017 11:13
Subject: Re:why do people prefer AP schools to IB?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Has anyone done a cost analysis of the #of AP classes taken FCPS wide per dollar, vs #of IB classes per dollar spent?
The # of students taking IB classes/dollar vs #of students taking AP classes/dollar?
I suspect the results would be impressive in favor of AP.
And, if this has been done, does anyone have the results?
And, if it has not been done, that is pretty poor stewardship of our funds.
The data on number of students and exams administered for both IB and AP and the costs of the programs is reported out in the FCPS Program Budget. Both programs are reviewed and assessed every year, but only in the most general terms - you can FOIA the results. These aren't large incremental expenditures compared to many other programs (e.g. ESL, SpecEd, AAP etc.)
From the Budget Questions:
FY 2018
Response to Questions of the FY 2018 Budget
School Board Member Requesting Information: Elizabeth Schultz
Answer Prepared By: Sloan J. Presidio
Date Prepared: March 9, 2017
Question:
How much does FCPS pay for the IB registration fee per student on top of the IB exam fee per student?
Response:
Full IB Diploma candidates pay a one-time registration fee of $168 that covers exams taken during students’ junior and senior year.
IB Course students (anyone not pursing the full IB Diploma) pay a registration fee of $168 for each year of exams (junior and/or senior year).
For FY 2017, FCPS paid 3,266 registration fees at $168 each for a total of $548,688 in registration fees.
Information on the number of Pupil Placements for IB and AP
Response to Questions of the FY 2018 Budget
School Board Member Requesting Information: Tom Wilson
Answer Prepared By: Jane Lipp
Date Prepared: March 9, 2017
Question:
How often do students pupil place into IB and AP schools for those programs?
Response:
In FY 2016, a total of 1,018 student transfers were approved enabling students to participate in an Advanced Placement (AP) or International Baccalaureate (IB) program at a non-base school. There were 474 transfers approved for AP students and 544 transfers approved for IB students.
This is interesting. Is there a registration fee for the AP students--is that the fee they pay for the tests? Is there another fee, as well, for the IB tests.
But, I would be more interested in the total expense of IB per student in Fairfax County vs just the tests.
For example, there must be an IB coordinator in each school separate from the regular teaching staff.
There is no such requirement in AP.
I would like to know the total cost of IB for FCPS per student vs the total cost of AP per student. What are the additional costs of AP other than the tests?
Anonymous
09/26/2017 11:06
Subject: Re:why do people prefer AP schools to IB?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
A higher percentage of Woodson students graduate haven taken a substantial number of AP courses; none are slapped with a label like "non-IB diploma candidate" at an IB school. AP wins.
Loudoun residents collectively decide how much they want to spend on schools and how they want that money spent. Clearly, they have decided, through their elected officials, that IB isn't something they want, whereas they are spending a substantial amount of money to expand AOS, which will continue to offer AP courses.
How many, and how do you know?
I've worked as a counselor in an AP high school in the county that's highly regarded (retired). The PP is definitely wrong. Not all students are carrying a course load of AP courses across disciplines. I would guess far less than 20 percent of students are carrying a full AP load across the disciplines. Maybe 10 percent?
Most students decide to take AP courses in their specific strength, so a weak math student but strong writer is doing AP English/History, etc. while a weaker writer but stronger STEM student would take the AP math and sciences courses. Neither student got the most difficult check on their common app, but I would describe the rigor of their courses and strengths.
Your experience is outdated.
The data on test scores, AP/IB participation rates, and NMSFs all makes clear that AP schools have a disproportionate percentage of NoVa's high performing kids.
I retired less than three years ago. So, no. It's not outdated. It's highly relevant.
From what I know about Robinson (I have friends that work there in guidance), I think nearly 80 percent of students attempt at least one IB course. I have no idea how many are getting certificates or dabbling or going for the full diploma, though.
Anonymous
09/26/2017 10:57
Subject: Re:why do people prefer AP schools to IB?
Anonymous wrote:Has anyone done a cost analysis of the #of AP classes taken FCPS wide per dollar, vs #of IB classes per dollar spent?
The # of students taking IB classes/dollar vs #of students taking AP classes/dollar?
I suspect the results would be impressive in favor of AP.
And, if this has been done, does anyone have the results?
And, if it has not been done, that is pretty poor stewardship of our funds.
The data on number of students and exams administered for both IB and AP and the costs of the programs is reported out in the FCPS Program Budget. Both programs are reviewed and assessed every year, but only in the most general terms - you can FOIA the results. These aren't large incremental expenditures compared to many other programs (e.g. ESL, SpecEd, AAP etc.)
From the Budget Questions:
FY 2018
Response to Questions of the FY 2018 Budget
School Board Member Requesting Information: Elizabeth Schultz
Answer Prepared By: Sloan J. Presidio
Date Prepared: March 9, 2017
Question:
How much does FCPS pay for the IB registration fee per student on top of the IB exam fee per student?
Response:
Full IB Diploma candidates pay a one-time registration fee of $168 that covers exams taken during students’ junior and senior year.
IB Course students (anyone not pursing the full IB Diploma) pay a registration fee of $168 for each year of exams (junior and/or senior year).
For FY 2017, FCPS paid 3,266 registration fees at $168 each for a total of $548,688 in registration fees.
Information on the number of Pupil Placements for IB and AP
Response to Questions of the FY 2018 Budget
School Board Member Requesting Information: Tom Wilson
Answer Prepared By: Jane Lipp
Date Prepared: March 9, 2017
Question:
How often do students pupil place into IB and AP schools for those programs?
Response:
In FY 2016, a total of 1,018 student transfers were approved enabling students to participate in an Advanced Placement (AP) or International Baccalaureate (IB) program at a non-base school. There were 474 transfers approved for AP students and 544 transfers approved for IB students.
Anonymous
09/26/2017 10:54
Subject: Re:why do people prefer AP schools to IB?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
A higher percentage of Woodson students graduate haven taken a substantial number of AP courses; none are slapped with a label like "non-IB diploma candidate" at an IB school. AP wins.
Loudoun residents collectively decide how much they want to spend on schools and how they want that money spent. Clearly, they have decided, through their elected officials, that IB isn't something they want, whereas they are spending a substantial amount of money to expand AOS, which will continue to offer AP courses.
How many, and how do you know?
I've worked as a counselor in an AP high school in the county that's highly regarded (retired). The PP is definitely wrong. Not all students are carrying a course load of AP courses across disciplines. I would guess far less than 20 percent of students are carrying a full AP load across the disciplines. Maybe 10 percent?
Most students decide to take AP courses in their specific strength, so a weak math student but strong writer is doing AP English/History, etc. while a weaker writer but stronger STEM student would take the AP math and sciences courses. Neither student got the most difficult check on their common app, but I would describe the rigor of their courses and strengths.
Your experience is outdated.
The data on test scores, AP/IB participation rates, and NMSFs all makes clear that AP schools have a disproportionate percentage of NoVa's high performing kids.
Anonymous
09/26/2017 10:53
Subject: Re:why do people prefer AP schools to IB?
I've worked as a counselor in an AP high school in the county that's highly regarded (retired). The PP is definitely wrong. Not all students are carrying a course load of AP courses across disciplines. I would guess far less than 20 percent of students are carrying a full AP load across the disciplines. Maybe 10 percent?
Most students decide to take AP courses in their specific strength, so a weak math student but strong writer is doing AP English/History, etc. while a weaker writer but stronger STEM student would take the AP math and sciences courses. Neither student got the most difficult check on their common app, but I would describe the rigor of their courses and strengths.
It would still be interesting to see the comparison--how many IB kids not in IB programme take IB classes? Not just those who do not pass well enough to get the diploma, but those who are not making the effort to get the diploma.
Anonymous
09/26/2017 10:51
Subject: Re:why do people prefer AP schools to IB?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Eight IB high schools in FCPS and only 13 National Merit Semifinalists among them? What a weak showing.
No wonder people prefer the AP schools.
No, people prefer schools in high SES areas no matter what the program is. No one is choosing Falls Church High over Marshall.
Sure they are. And when Falls Church gets renovated like Marshall in a few years, the transfers from FCHS will drop.
Anonymous
09/26/2017 10:42
Subject: Re:why do people prefer AP schools to IB?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
A higher percentage of Woodson students graduate haven taken a substantial number of AP courses; none are slapped with a label like "non-IB diploma candidate" at an IB school. AP wins.
Loudoun residents collectively decide how much they want to spend on schools and how they want that money spent. Clearly, they have decided, through their elected officials, that IB isn't something they want, whereas they are spending a substantial amount of money to expand AOS, which will continue to offer AP courses.
How many, and how do you know?
I've worked as a counselor in an AP high school in the county that's highly regarded (retired). The PP is definitely wrong. Not all students are carrying a course load of AP courses across disciplines. I would guess far less than 20 percent of students are carrying a full AP load across the disciplines. Maybe 10 percent?
Most students decide to take AP courses in their specific strength, so a weak math student but strong writer is doing AP English/History, etc. while a weaker writer but stronger STEM student would take the AP math and sciences courses. Neither student got the most difficult check on their common app, but I would describe the rigor of their courses and strengths.
Anonymous
09/26/2017 10:29
Subject: Re:why do people prefer AP schools to IB?
Anonymous wrote:Eight IB high schools in FCPS and only 13 National Merit Semifinalists among them? What a weak showing.
No wonder people prefer the AP schools.
No, people prefer schools in high SES areas no matter what the program is. No one is choosing Falls Church High over Marshall.
Anonymous
09/26/2017 10:27
Subject: Re:why do people prefer AP schools to IB?
Anonymous wrote:
A higher percentage of Woodson students graduate haven taken a substantial number of AP courses; none are slapped with a label like "non-IB diploma candidate" at an IB school. AP wins.
Loudoun residents collectively decide how much they want to spend on schools and how they want that money spent. Clearly, they have decided, through their elected officials, that IB isn't something they want, whereas they are spending a substantial amount of money to expand AOS, which will continue to offer AP courses.
How many, and how do you know?