Anonymous wrote:Many people hooked on heroin now -did- have the right choices modeled for them. And yet they turned to drugs anyway.

Look. Go read a book, one that explains addiction. In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts, the one mentioned above, is great. Until you do that, you're just going to continue looking dumb because those of us who have taken the time to understand this issue know that there is a lot more to addiction than drugs and making one bad choice.

Many people hooked on heroin now -did- have the right choices modeled for them. And yet they turned to drugs anyway.

Anonymous wrote:This discussion coincides with my reading of a book about addiction someone on DCUM recommended a short while ago. It's called In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts, and I just came across this passage (emphasis mine):

The hormone pathways of sexually abused children are chronically altered. Even a relatively mild stressor, such as maternal depression - let alone neglect, abandonment or abuse -
can disturb an infant's physical stress mechanisms. Add neglect, abandonment or abuse and the child will be more reactive to stress throughout her life.

A study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association concluded that a history of childhood abuse per se is related to increased neuroendocrine, nervous and hormonal stress reactivity, which is further enhanced when additional trauma is experienced in adulthood. A brain preset to be easily triggered into a stress response is likely to assign a high value to substances, activities and situations that provide short term relief. It will have less interest in long term consequences, just as people in extremes of thirst will greedily consume water knowing that it may contain toxins. On the other hand, situations or activities that, for the average person, are likely to bring satisfaction are undervalued because in the addicts life, they have not been rewarding. For example, intimate connections with family. This shrinking from normal experience is also an outcome of early trauma and stress, as summarized in a recent psychiatric review of child development. Neglect and abuse during early life may cause bonding systems to develop abnormally and compromise capacity for rewarding interpersonal relationships and commitment to societal and cultural values later in life. Other means of stimulating reward pathways in the brain, such as drugs, sex, aggression and intimidating others could become relatively more attractive and less constrained by concern about violating trusting relationships. The ability to modify behavior based on negative experiences may be impaired.

The author goes on to talk about how neglected and/or abused children have a deeply ingrained response to stress and cope with it through self soothing. Maybe they don't end up as drug addicts, but it's manifested in other ways (see above reference to aggression and intimidating others).

I just think it's important to look at the long term effects of adverse childhood experiences like poverty and domestic violence because that impaired decision-making impacts so many other aspects of responsible living that are being criticized here - learning capacity, ability to hold a job, chronic disease and the choices that lead to them, depression, violence. The commonality of adverse childhood experiences was the thing that stood out for me in that book Hillbilly Elegy. That author talked about similarities between his childhood and those of AAs who grew up in inner city poverty.

I'm the person who recommended that book a few weeks ago! Thank you for reading it, and thank you for posting this. All these "personal choice and responsibility" posters make me sick. It's pretty hard to know what the right choices are when nobody ever modeled them for you, and your brain never gave you a chance to practice making healthy choices. We all have vices. We all turn to external sources to soothe our emotional states every once in a while.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Because when I took prescribed opioid medication, my depression and anxiety vanished. I felt content, engaged in my relationships, job, and surroundings, and for the first time I felt like I wasn't in a desperate slog, faking it to get by one more day. Opiates make some people feel good. Very, very good. Why is that difficult to understand? If you can't relate, consider yourself extremely fortunate.

It is not a fortune. It is years and years of hard work on own character, discipline, education, moral values. Some people work hard to develop that, and some pop the pill.

You also believe that no poor people would be poor if they just worked harder, right?

Personal choices do, of course, factor into the equation. But so do genetics &, in many cases, misfortune.

It depends. I personally don't know anyone who worked hard and remain poor in US. It is totally possible in another countries. And I am a first generation immigrant who came here with less than $200, no English, and no job prospects.

Really? What about every nanny, bus boy, landscaper and kitchen worker in America? They work harder than just about everyone. They will most likely always be poor.

NP. She left out a crucial part - work hard and work smart. Part of that is valuing education in your kids, not blowing your money on stupid stuff that adds up quickly, knowing how save and budget, and what to do with it.

I came here as a kid with almost nothing with my parents and they also worked low paying jobs (white collar but low paying). They saved every penny and never, ever ate out (maybe once a year), didn't buy any luxuries (my mom bought a necklace once and that was a big deal), and were able to purchase a 4 bed 2.5 bath house with two cars eventually. Plenty of immigrants do better than they did. Pretty middle class now, but not poor anymore.

IMHO, very possible, with the right cultural influence and personal choices.

Yes, and those cultural influences are largely a matter of luck. You were fortunate enough to be born into a family & culture that values upward mobility & has a realistic notion of how to achieve it. Not everybody raised in an environment that fosters the belief that working hard & living frugally can break the generational cycle of poverty they see all around them.

I think it serves as a psychological comfort to bleeding heart Liberals like you to believe that the poor are truly not responsible for their plight because of XY or Z but I think it just shows you are tremendously naive. A lot of you did not grow up poor, your parents shielded you from "those people" and you were taught a pretty little package of "it's not their fault." But what you don't realize that your position is extremely patronizing - it removes agency and free will from the consideration of these people you claim to respect and know. Really you do neither.

The reason so many poor neighborhoods vote Republican is because they see their neighbors, family members, friends and family mooching, malingering, and revelling in the spoils of a nanny state led by starry eyed, naive idealists who do not see this. Much of drug use that leads to adult abuse begins in Recreational usage - few of whom are compensating for life's difficulties or self medicating, but really just being stupid. You'll hear them brag about how drug use is a "victimless crime," get the government out of their business, yadda yadda. Horseshit! Heroin is unique because a huge percentage of its users were hooked on it curtesy of doctors and pain management.

Anyway. Long story short. Cut the excuse making BS!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because when I took prescribed opioid medication, my depression and anxiety vanished. I felt content, engaged in my relationships, job, and surroundings, and for the first time I felt like I wasn't in a desperate slog, faking it to get by one more day. Opiates make some people feel good. Very, very good. Why is that difficult to understand? If you can't relate, consider yourself extremely fortunate.

It is not a fortune. It is years and years of hard work on own character, discipline, education, moral values. Some people work hard to develop that, and some pop the pill.

You also believe that no poor people would be poor if they just worked harder, right?

Personal choices do, of course, factor into the equation. But so do genetics &, in many cases, misfortune.

It depends. I personally don't know anyone who worked hard and remain poor in US. It is totally possible in another countries. And I am a first generation immigrant who came here with less than $200, no English, and no job prospects.

Really? What about every nanny, bus boy, landscaper and kitchen worker in America? They work harder than just about everyone. They will most likely always be poor.

NP. She left out a crucial part - work hard and work smart. Part of that is valuing education in your kids, not blowing your money on stupid stuff that adds up quickly, knowing how save and budget, and what to do with it.

I came here as a kid with almost nothing with my parents and they also worked low paying jobs (white collar but low paying). They saved every penny and never, ever ate out (maybe once a year), didn't buy any luxuries (my mom bought a necklace once and that was a big deal), and were able to purchase a 4 bed 2.5 bath house with two cars eventually. Plenty of immigrants do better than they did. Pretty middle class now, but not poor anymore.

IMHO, very possible, with the right cultural influence and personal choices.

Yes, and those cultural influences are largely a matter of luck. You were fortunate enough to be born into a family & culture that values upward mobility & has a realistic notion of how to achieve it. Not everybody raised in an environment that fosters the belief that working hard & living frugally can break the generational cycle of poverty they see all around them.

This discussion coincides with my reading of a book about addiction someone on DCUM recommended a short while ago. It's called In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts, and I just came across this passage (emphasis mine):

The hormone pathways of sexually abused children are chronically altered. Even a relatively mild stressor, such as maternal depression - let alone neglect, abandonment or abuse -
can disturb an infant's physical stress mechanisms. Add neglect, abandonment or abuse and the child will be more reactive to stress throughout her life.

A study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association concluded that a history of childhood abuse per se is related to increased neuroendocrine, nervous and hormonal stress reactivity, which is further enhanced when additional trauma is experienced in adulthood. A brain preset to be easily triggered into a stress response is likely to assign a high value to substances, activities and situations that provide short term relief. It will have less interest in long term consequences, just as people in extremes of thirst will greedily consume water knowing that it may contain toxins. On the other hand, situations or activities that, for the average person, are likely to bring satisfaction are undervalued because in the addicts life, they have not been rewarding. For example, intimate connections with family. This shrinking from normal experience is also an outcome of early trauma and stress, as summarized in a recent psychiatric review of child development. Neglect and abuse during early life may cause bonding systems to develop abnormally and compromise capacity for rewarding interpersonal relationships and commitment to societal and cultural values later in life. Other means of stimulating reward pathways in the brain, such as drugs, sex, aggression and intimidating others could become relatively more attractive and less constrained by concern about violating trusting relationships. The ability to modify behavior based on negative experiences may be impaired.

The author goes on to talk about how neglected and/or abused children have a deeply ingrained response to stress and cope with it through self soothing. Maybe they don't end up as drug addicts, but it's manifested in other ways (see above reference to aggression and intimidating others).

I just think it's important to look at the long term effects of adverse childhood experiences like poverty and domestic violence because that impaired decision-making impacts so many other aspects of responsible living that are being criticized here - learning capacity, ability to hold a job, chronic disease and the choices that lead to them, depression, violence. The commonality of adverse childhood experiences was the thing that stood out for me in that book Hillbilly Elegy. That author talked about similarities between his childhood and those of AAs who grew up in inner city poverty.

Anonymous wrote:Oh and btw, I grew up around a lot of poor people and I am sorry, I know people think the truth is ugly, but the poor make a lot of stupid choices in life that keep them poor.

Examples: Spending your windfall $400 (so, all the "extra money you have) on a tattoo (I was on a mom's group on FB and this was the consensus as to how this one mom should spend the $400 she suddenly has). "Save it" came up a few times but was a very small minority.

So how do you build up any kind of wealth with thinking like that? These are the people at the very bottom.

You are right that a lot of low income people make poor financial decisons. But the environment in which they grew up in plays a significant time in this. When a lot harder to learn proper money management when nobody in your family has ever had money to manage.

Those of you claiming addiction is a choice/bad character should consider alcoholism, especially vis a vis American Indians. Indians are alcoholics at a much higher rate than the general population.

If addiction is a matter of not working on one's character, we would have to conclude that Indians, as a group, are scumbags who do not work on their character.

I am not Indian, but I find that offensive. Clearly other factors (genetic and socioeconomic) are in play.

Oh and btw, I grew up around a lot of poor people and I am sorry, I know people think the truth is ugly, but the poor make a lot of stupid choices in life that keep them poor.

Examples: Spending your windfall $400 (so, all the "extra money you have) on a tattoo (I was on a mom's group on FB and this was the consensus as to how this one mom should spend the $400 she suddenly has). "Save it" came up a few times but was a very small minority.

So how do you build up any kind of wealth with thinking like that? These are the people at the very bottom.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because when I took prescribed opioid medication, my depression and anxiety vanished. I felt content, engaged in my relationships, job, and surroundings, and for the first time I felt like I wasn't in a desperate slog, faking it to get by one more day. Opiates make some people feel good. Very, very good. Why is that difficult to understand? If you can't relate, consider yourself extremely fortunate.

It is not a fortune. It is years and years of hard work on own character, discipline, education, moral values. Some people work hard to develop that, and some pop the pill.

How can that be? There were several posters in the "should I move back to rural New England" thread, who insisted there was no opioid addiction problems there whatsoever, and whomever claimed to the contrary was just a snobby DC person stereotyping.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love how opioids make me feel, and see how I could get addicted. I have never taken more than a normal dose, but have stolen pills in the past. They are difficult to resist. If I have them, I will take them.

You should never take them again then. Why go down this road when you know how tragically it will end?

I don't ever ask for them, but the pleasure centers in my brain light up when they're offered. It's been the same way for decades.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because when I took prescribed opioid medication, my depression and anxiety vanished. I felt content, engaged in my relationships, job, and surroundings, and for the first time I felt like I wasn't in a desperate slog, faking it to get by one more day. Opiates make some people feel good. Very, very good. Why is that difficult to understand? If you can't relate, consider yourself extremely fortunate.

It is not a fortune. It is years and years of hard work on own character, discipline, education, moral values. Some people work hard to develop that, and some pop the pill.

You also believe that no poor people would be poor if they just worked harder, right?

Personal choices do, of course, factor into the equation. But so do genetics &, in many cases, misfortune.

It depends. I personally don't know anyone who worked hard and remain poor in US. It is totally possible in another countries. And I am a first generation immigrant who came here with less than $200, no English, and no job prospects.

Really? What about every nanny, bus boy, landscaper and kitchen worker in America? They work harder than just about everyone. They will most likely always be poor.

NP. She left out a crucial part - work hard and work smart. Part of that is valuing education in your kids, not blowing your money on stupid stuff that adds up quickly, knowing how save and budget, and what to do with it.

I came here as a kid with almost nothing with my parents and they also worked low paying jobs (white collar but low paying). They saved every penny and never, ever ate out (maybe once a year), didn't buy any luxuries (my mom bought a necklace once and that was a big deal), and were able to purchase a 4 bed 2.5 bath house with two cars eventually. Plenty of immigrants do better than they did. Pretty middle class now, but not poor anymore.

IMHO, very possible, with the right cultural influence and personal choices.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Or pp, they are predisposed to addiction. As is the case on my family.
I've been hyper vigilant about taking tha bare minimum when prescribed painkillers and stopping as soon as I could manage for this reason. My sibling wasn't so lucky.

You followed the directions. Your sibling, more than likely, did not. I'm not trying to be condescending, but there is some degree of choice involved. Once someone decides to take 4 pills instead of 2, or takes more pills after 2 hours instead of waiting 4 hours...that's where the problem lies.

Yes, there's choice. But more often than not, there's also a complex set of biological factors beyond a person's control that set the course for addiction. Impaired coping mechanisms that never even develop properly because of adverse events in childhood and even in utero. You get a kid never able to cope with stressors beyond their control who becomes a teen or adult seeking relief for a pain they didn't know they had.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because when I took prescribed opioid medication, my depression and anxiety vanished. I felt content, engaged in my relationships, job, and surroundings, and for the first time I felt like I wasn't in a desperate slog, faking it to get by one more day. Opiates make some people feel good. Very, very good. Why is that difficult to understand? If you can't relate, consider yourself extremely fortunate.

It is not a fortune. It is years and years of hard work on own character, discipline, education, moral values. Some people work hard to develop that, and some pop the pill.

You also believe that no poor people would be poor if they just worked harder, right?

Personal choices do, of course, factor into the equation. But so do genetics &, in many cases, misfortune.

It depends. I personally don't know anyone who worked hard and remain poor in US. It is totally possible in another countries. And I am a first generation immigrant who came here with less than $200, no English, and no job prospects.

Really? What about every nanny, bus boy, landscaper and kitchen worker in America? They work harder than just about everyone. They will most likely always be poor.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because when I took prescribed opioid medication, my depression and anxiety vanished. I felt content, engaged in my relationships, job, and surroundings, and for the first time I felt like I wasn't in a desperate slog, faking it to get by one more day. Opiates make some people feel good. Very, very good. Why is that difficult to understand? If you can't relate, consider yourself extremely fortunate.

It is not a fortune. It is years and years of hard work on own character, discipline, education, moral values. Some people work hard to develop that, and some pop the pill.

You also believe that no poor people would be poor if they just worked harder, right?

Personal choices do, of course, factor into the equation. But so do genetics &, in many cases, misfortune.

It depends. I personally don't know anyone who worked hard and remain poor in US. It is totally possible in another countries. And I am a first generation immigrant who came here with less than $200, no English, and no job prospects.