Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting to me how atheists can scoff at the Christian belief in miracles, but maintain that the entire physical world popped into existence from nothingness. Christians believe a God who made the world can intervene to perform a miracle. Indeed, we see the entire creation as a miracle. Atheists, on the other hand, marvel at the natural world and still maintain that it came into existence contrary to all the natural processes they worship, i.e. something from nothing, reversal of entropy, etc. The things that had to have happened for the universe to begin without a creator can never be observed in nature.

I am an atheist who knows other atheists and I've never heard an atheist say that the world popped into existence from nothing. I've heard atheists say they don't know how the world came into existence -- that's what I say -- and that scientists are trying to find out.

To me it seems weird that Christians believe that God made the world and then, at some much later date, God sent his son for the express purpose of dying for all the people on earth from that time forward could go to heaven, if they believed in him. They believe this even knowing that many people living on earth since the savior supposedly came 2000 years ago never even heard of Jesus and thus have no chance to go to the heaven promised by their god.

But if you don't believe in a creator, then all the natural world had to just come into existence by itself. There's no way around it. Most atheists I've heard or read scoff at people who question the Big Bang theory because that's science. But the Big Bang theory posits that everything just ... popped into existence.

The rest of your post suggests that it's not that you don't believe in God, you just don't approve of how He does things. There are ways to understand Christian belief if you give it an honest attempt to understand. The Bible says a lot of things that you're probably not aware of that answer these questions, including that those who truly seek after God will find Jesus.

I'm not unfamiliar with religious teachings. I just don't believe in them. There is plenty I like about religion and christianity in particular, especially regarding community and ritual and music. I just don't believe in it.

God is not the only answer to the universe -- the answer could be that we don't know the answer yet, that we have ideas, that we're curious and will keep working on it and don't mind if it might take a long while. In the meantime, now that we have scientific understanding and experimentation, we won't believe primitive stories any more about how the world began. We can keep the human, community benefits of religion and discard or recast the rest. The big bang is based on scientific thinking. God is not. God is based on stories and faith.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Its obvious that the creator is beyond our ability to comprehend. Just the fact that we are basically in a terrarium shaped like a ball where we go around in circles and come back to the place we started that only goes a couple miles high and a couple miles underground before we hit molten rock gives a hint that we are being watched. Just imagine a being that can create time and math for us to have some sort of order we can understand but itself exists outside of time and order. That is probably closer to the reality than everything coming from nothing for no reason which is absolutely ridiculous. The actual reality is probably as far beyond our comprehension as explaining a microprocessor to an ant. There is no denying intelligent design though. It is everywhere.

+1

Agree and one of my one laws told me this belief several years ago.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting to me how atheists can scoff at the Christian belief in miracles, but maintain that the entire physical world popped into existence from nothingness. Christians believe a God who made the world can intervene to perform a miracle. Indeed, we see the entire creation as a miracle. Atheists, on the other hand, marvel at the natural world and still maintain that it came into existence contrary to all the natural processes they worship, i.e. something from nothing, reversal of entropy, etc. The things that had to have happened for the universe to begin without a creator can never be observed in nature.

I am an atheist who knows other atheists and I've never heard an atheist say that the world popped into existence from nothing. I've heard atheists say they don't know how the world came into existence -- that's what I say -- and that scientists are trying to find out.

To me it seems weird that Christians believe that God made the world and then, at some much later date, God sent his son for the express purpose of dying for all the people on earth from that time forward could go to heaven, if they believed in him. They believe this even knowing that many people living on earth since the savior supposedly came 2000 years ago never even heard of Jesus and thus have no chance to go to the heaven promised by their god.

But if you don't believe in a creator, then all the natural world had to just come into existence by itself. There's no way around it. Most atheists I've heard or read scoff at people who question the Big Bang theory because that's science. But the Big Bang theory posits that everything just ... popped into existence.

The rest of your post suggests that it's not that you don't believe in God, you just don't approve of how He does things. There are ways to understand Christian belief if you give it an honest attempt to understand. The Bible says a lot of things that you're probably not aware of that answer these questions, including that those who truly seek after God will find Jesus.

Anonymous wrote:FYI to the minister -- your last few communications have been with a different poster.

Getting back to your #4 - are you saying you regularly see "deathbed conversions"? Maybe not always to an established religion, but from people who have said they were atheists who when close to death say they they now believe in "god"?

If so, I'd imagine this would be a common occurrence in Hospice and would think there'd be a lot written about it.
I didn't find anything in a cursory google search. Could you direct me to information on this?

Thanks

We were just talking about exactly this at my Hospice Center. There are four Ministers working at the center. One of them is a more traditional protestant minister. One is a Catholic Nun. One is an AME Pastor. And then me. I am an Interfaith Minister. I am one they call for anyone who isn't mainline Protestant or Catholic. I am trained to minister to people of all faiths. I by default, get all the Atheists (along with a lot of people from Jewish, Muslim, and Buddhist faiths). To me, it's all the same.

I don't see what most people would describe as "deathbed conversions". Not in the sense of people asking for my help to "accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior". I have literally never had that happen. However, most of the people I spend time with at the end of life seem to become more spiritual as they approach their final days. Maybe not religious, but certainly interested in talking about after-life, benevolent God, forgiveness, etc.

BUT - and I think this is really important - Keep in mind that I am a minister. I visit everyone who comes into our center regardless of faith at least a couple of times. I introduce myself, do a quick spiritual assessment, talk with the family, and let them know there is a minister on call any time they might need us. I can't visit every patient every day. We have 50 patients in our center and between 30 and 50 under Home Hospice Care. A lot of my visits are at the request of the family or the patient. If a patient has asked to see me or has asked that I remain bedside, chances are they are already thinking about religious or spiritual issues. A person who is not interested in talking about religion is not likely asking to see a minister.

I guess my answer would be that in my experience even atheists who had no interest in talking with me when they were admitted to Hospice often ask for me when death becomes more of a reality. But it's less about a "conversion" and more a need to express renewed interest in spirituality. Really it's not that different than the Catholic who hasn't been to Mass in many years - They will often ask me to give them Holy Eucharist. Or they'll ask for a Priest to come in and give them Last Rites.

My discussion with my fellow Minsters led us to a couple of possible conclusions - The most obvious is that an atheist who was raised in a religious family finds comfort in the familiarity of religious sacrament. Another is that the atheist who was raised in an evangelical church starts to question. And that's scary. I know how powerful those images of hell are. I was raised Southern Baptist. The patient may be seeking that "Blessed Assurance". But more often, I see patients who begin to experience and feel things they can't explain. They aren't interested in hearing me read the Bible or preach. But they do want to talk about God.

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting to me how atheists can scoff at the Christian belief in miracles, but maintain that the entire physical world popped into existence from nothingness. Christians believe a God who made the world can intervene to perform a miracle. Indeed, we see the entire creation as a miracle. Atheists, on the other hand, marvel at the natural world and still maintain that it came into existence contrary to all the natural processes they worship, i.e. something from nothing, reversal of entropy, etc. The things that had to have happened for the universe to begin without a creator can never be observed in nature.

I am an atheist who knows other atheists and I've never heard an atheist say that the world popped into existence from nothing. I've heard atheists say they don't know how the world came into existence -- that's what I say -- and that scientists are trying to find out.

To me it seems weird that Christians believe that God made the world and then, at some much later date, God sent his son for the express purpose of dying for all the people on earth from that time forward could go to heaven, if they believed in him. They believe this even knowing that many people living on earth since the savior supposedly came 2000 years ago never even heard of Jesus and thus have no chance to go to the heaven promised by their god.

FYI to the minister -- your last few communications have been with a different poster.

Getting back to your #4 - are you saying you regularly see "deathbed conversions"? Maybe not always to an established religion, but from people who have said they were atheists who when close to death say they they now believe in "god"?

If so, I'd imagine this would be a common occurrence in Hospice and would think there'd be a lot written about it.
I didn't find anything in a cursory google search. Could you direct me to information on this?

Thanks

It's interesting to me how atheists can scoff at the Christian belief in miracles, but maintain that the entire physical world popped into existence from nothingness. Christians believe a God who made the world can intervene to perform a miracle. Indeed, we see the entire creation as a miracle. Atheists, on the other hand, marvel at the natural world and still maintain that it came into existence contrary to all the natural processes they worship, i.e. something from nothing, reversal of entropy, etc. The things that had to have happened for the universe to begin without a creator can never be observed in nature.

Anonymous wrote:Well then you might want to go back and reread your post. Or stop trying to speak for others who you clearly do not understand.

I apologize if I wasn't clear in my communication.

Well then you might want to go back and reread your post. Or stop trying to speak for others who you clearly do not understand.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
But respectfully, that's kind of my point. I'm not sure our language could ever adequately define "God". And I think that's a good thing. Our relationship with Creation or with what a spiritual person migh call God or Spirit is so very personal. I would never want to define that relationship for another being. If an atheist finds cosmic order in Science and Mathematics, in my mind that IS Devine. That is his answer to the puzzle of the universe. People change their views on religion and spirituality. The Christian you meet today could be an atheist tomorrow. And I know lots of atheists who find spirituality later. As a Hospice minister, I see this almost every day.

It's a journey. The only thing I know with certainty is that none of us have the answers. We are all learning, growing, and changing. It's important that we learn to acknowledge that our faith is not the only one that is "right". I can allow space for both of us to be right.

Can you accept that even your use of language is something that some atheists don't relate to. I don't think in terms of having a "relationship with creation"

You also say that you know "with certainty" that "none of us have the answers" while there are some devout Christians who would disagree with that. They HAVE the answer -- Jesus is the answer. And an atheist's answer might be that the world makes more sense without a benevolent God in it

And you speak in terms of "our faith" as if everyone has one -- and many people don't -- never did, or rejected it. Sure they may have faith in something -- the laws of nature or some of their fellow human beings - but it's not faith as in religious faith and they wouldn't call it faith.

As for seeing atheists who find spirituality "almost every day" - no way to prove this is right or wrong -- it's your perception stated as fact -- and I doubt I'd perceive whatever you're seeing the same way. Maybe I'd call it "making peace with their fate" and maybe you, seeing it through the eyes of a Christian minister call it "finding spirituality."

We certainly think and speak differently about religion and at this point, I suspect atheists are much more familiar with how religious people think and speak than vice versa, because many atheists were once religious and we all live in a world permeated by religion.

To answer your questions. Because I believe they are important -

1. Yes. I accept that many atheists will not relate to my language. I don't even believe my language is the correct one. It's simply me using my belief system and life experiences. Nothing more. I not only accept this, I honor it.

2. Many faiths teach that they have the answers. That they are "right". I disagree with this 100%. I understand where they are coming from. I can respect their faith. I was raised in an evangelical home and understand what they feel is at risk. Eternity burning in hell is a powerful motivator.

3. I think most people have faith in something. I have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow. I don't think faith is necessarily connected to a traditional concept of "God".

4. I was speaking literally when I said atheists often find a faith path at the end of life. They do. You may not like it. But I see it happen almost every day. You could argue that the reality of death is scary and that fear causes people to reach out to God as a last resort. As a minister, I think we are naturally programmed to return to our Source. I believe dying people are experiencing something that we cannot really understand. An atheist would explain that with Science.

5. We do speak and think differently. And I honor and respect that. What we need is more civil conversation just like this. When we are able to respect one another without name calling or shaming, we all benefit.

Wishing you peace.

If you don't want name calling, please stop with the condescension & presumptions.

I certainly didn't mean to come across as condescending or presumptuous. Is it possible that you are misreading my tone? I was trying to be really, really clear that these beliefs are my own and that mine or no better than anyone else's. I've been accused of being many things, but never condescending or presumptuous. That's the opposite of what I ever want to be.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
But respectfully, that's kind of my point. I'm not sure our language could ever adequately define "God". And I think that's a good thing. Our relationship with Creation or with what a spiritual person migh call God or Spirit is so very personal. I would never want to define that relationship for another being. If an atheist finds cosmic order in Science and Mathematics, in my mind that IS Devine. That is his answer to the puzzle of the universe. People change their views on religion and spirituality. The Christian you meet today could be an atheist tomorrow. And I know lots of atheists who find spirituality later. As a Hospice minister, I see this almost every day.

It's a journey. The only thing I know with certainty is that none of us have the answers. We are all learning, growing, and changing. It's important that we learn to acknowledge that our faith is not the only one that is "right". I can allow space for both of us to be right.

Can you accept that even your use of language is something that some atheists don't relate to. I don't think in terms of having a "relationship with creation"

You also say that you know "with certainty" that "none of us have the answers" while there are some devout Christians who would disagree with that. They HAVE the answer -- Jesus is the answer. And an atheist's answer might be that the world makes more sense without a benevolent God in it

And you speak in terms of "our faith" as if everyone has one -- and many people don't -- never did, or rejected it. Sure they may have faith in something -- the laws of nature or some of their fellow human beings - but it's not faith as in religious faith and they wouldn't call it faith.

As for seeing atheists who find spirituality "almost every day" - no way to prove this is right or wrong -- it's your perception stated as fact -- and I doubt I'd perceive whatever you're seeing the same way. Maybe I'd call it "making peace with their fate" and maybe you, seeing it through the eyes of a Christian minister call it "finding spirituality."

We certainly think and speak differently about religion and at this point, I suspect atheists are much more familiar with how religious people think and speak than vice versa, because many atheists were once religious and we all live in a world permeated by religion.

To answer your questions. Because I believe they are important -

1. Yes. I accept that many atheists will not relate to my language. I don't even believe my language is the correct one. It's simply me using my belief system and life experiences. Nothing more. I not only accept this, I honor it.

2. Many faiths teach that they have the answers. That they are "right". I disagree with this 100%. I understand where they are coming from. I can respect their faith. I was raised in an evangelical home and understand what they feel is at risk. Eternity burning in hell is a powerful motivator.

3. I think most people have faith in something. I have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow. I don't think faith is necessarily connected to a traditional concept of "God".

4. I was speaking literally when I said atheists often find a faith path at the end of life. They do. You may not like it. But I see it happen almost every day. You could argue that the reality of death is scary and that fear causes people to reach out to God as a last resort. As a minister, I think we are naturally programmed to return to our Source. I believe dying people are experiencing something that we cannot really understand. An atheist would explain that with Science.

5. We do speak and think differently. And I honor and respect that. What we need is more civil conversation just like this. When we are able to respect one another without name calling or shaming, we all benefit.

Wishing you peace.

If you don't want name calling, please stop with the condescension & presumptions.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
But respectfully, that's kind of my point. I'm not sure our language could ever adequately define "God". And I think that's a good thing. Our relationship with Creation or with what a spiritual person migh call God or Spirit is so very personal. I would never want to define that relationship for another being. If an atheist finds cosmic order in Science and Mathematics, in my mind that IS Devine. That is his answer to the puzzle of the universe. People change their views on religion and spirituality. The Christian you meet today could be an atheist tomorrow. And I know lots of atheists who find spirituality later. As a Hospice minister, I see this almost every day.

It's a journey. The only thing I know with certainty is that none of us have the answers. We are all learning, growing, and changing. It's important that we learn to acknowledge that our faith is not the only one that is "right". I can allow space for both of us to be right.

Can you accept that even your use of language is something that some atheists don't relate to. I don't think in terms of having a "relationship with creation"

You also say that you know "with certainty" that "none of us have the answers" while there are some devout Christians who would disagree with that. They HAVE the answer -- Jesus is the answer. And an atheist's answer might be that the world makes more sense without a benevolent God in it

And you speak in terms of "our faith" as if everyone has one -- and many people don't -- never did, or rejected it. Sure they may have faith in something -- the laws of nature or some of their fellow human beings - but it's not faith as in religious faith and they wouldn't call it faith.

As for seeing atheists who find spirituality "almost every day" - no way to prove this is right or wrong -- it's your perception stated as fact -- and I doubt I'd perceive whatever you're seeing the same way. Maybe I'd call it "making peace with their fate" and maybe you, seeing it through the eyes of a Christian minister call it "finding spirituality."

We certainly think and speak differently about religion and at this point, I suspect atheists are much more familiar with how religious people think and speak than vice versa, because many atheists were once religious and we all live in a world permeated by religion.

To answer your questions. Because I believe they are important -

1. Yes. I accept that many atheists will not relate to my language. I don't even believe my language is the correct one. It's simply me using my belief system and life experiences. Nothing more. I not only accept this, I honor it.

2. Many faiths teach that they have the answers. That they are "right". I disagree with this 100%. I understand where they are coming from. I can respect their faith. I was raised in an evangelical home and understand what they feel is at risk. Eternity burning in hell is a powerful motivator.

3. I think most people have faith in something. I have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow. I don't think faith is necessarily connected to a traditional concept of "God".

4. I was speaking literally when I said atheists often find a faith path at the end of life. They do. You may not like it. But I see it happen almost every day. You could argue that the reality of death is scary and that fear causes people to reach out to God as a last resort. As a minister, I think we are naturally programmed to return to our Source. I believe dying people are experiencing something that we cannot really understand. An atheist would explain that with Science.

5. We do speak and think differently. And I honor and respect that. What we need is more civil conversation just like this. When we are able to respect one another without name calling or shaming, we all benefit.

Wishing you peace.

DH is an atheist; I'm a mostly-secular Jew. We're raising our children Jewish.

We recently moved to a town in the Midwest with a relatively small Jewish population. (Big for the Midwest; much, much smaller than what I grew up with in Baltimore and D.C.) Both of us have become active in our congregation, because it's been a very welcoming community. It's a place where we can meet and hang out with people, a place where we can be active in community service. So, that's the place organized religion has for us right now.

Anonymous wrote:
But respectfully, that's kind of my point. I'm not sure our language could ever adequately define "God". And I think that's a good thing. Our relationship with Creation or with what a spiritual person migh call God or Spirit is so very personal. I would never want to define that relationship for another being. If an atheist finds cosmic order in Science and Mathematics, in my mind that IS Devine. That is his answer to the puzzle of the universe. People change their views on religion and spirituality. The Christian you meet today could be an atheist tomorrow. And I know lots of atheists who find spirituality later. As a Hospice minister, I see this almost every day.

It's a journey. The only thing I know with certainty is that none of us have the answers. We are all learning, growing, and changing. It's important that we learn to acknowledge that our faith is not the only one that is "right". I can allow space for both of us to be right.

Can you accept that even your use of language is something that some atheists don't relate to. I don't think in terms of having a "relationship with creation"

You also say that you know "with certainty" that "none of us have the answers" while there are some devout Christians who would disagree with that. They HAVE the answer -- Jesus is the answer. And an atheist's answer might be that the world makes more sense without a benevolent God in it

And you speak in terms of "our faith" as if everyone has one -- and many people don't -- never did, or rejected it. Sure they may have faith in something -- the laws of nature or some of their fellow human beings - but it's not faith as in religious faith and they wouldn't call it faith.

As for seeing atheists who find spirituality "almost every day" - no way to prove this is right or wrong -- it's your perception stated as fact -- and I doubt I'd perceive whatever you're seeing the same way. Maybe I'd call it "making peace with their fate" and maybe you, seeing it through the eyes of a Christian minister call it "finding spirituality."

We certainly think and speak differently about religion and at this point, I suspect atheists are much more familiar with how religious people think and speak than vice versa, because many atheists were once religious and we all live in a world permeated by religion.

Anonymous wrote:Its obvious that the creator is beyond our ability to comprehend. Just the fact that we are basically in a terrarium shaped like a ball where we go around in circles and come back to the place we started that only goes a couple miles high and a couple miles underground before we hit molten rock gives a hint that we are being watched. Just imagine a being that can create time and math for us to have some sort of order we can understand but itself exists outside of time and order. That is probably closer to the reality than everything coming from nothing for no reason which is absolutely ridiculous. The actual reality is probably as far beyond our comprehension as explaining a microprocessor to an ant. There is no denying intelligent design though. It is everywhere.

+1