Anonymous wrote:I think we should reference the position of pro-abortion & anti-abortion. Instead of pro-choice/pro-life.

Just because I am pro-choice, it does not imply that I am not pro-life.

Likewise just because I'm pro-choice, doesn't mean that I'm "pro-abortion". Abortion is a choice that should be available to everyone, but it doesn't mean I want people to have one. In an ideal world there would be no unplanned pregnancies, no unwanted pregnancies and no unhealthy pregnancies. But we don't live in an ideal world so elective abortion is available.

Do most of you know that the clinical term for a miscarriage is also abortion? I miscarried a very wanted baby at 12 weeks and found it recorded in my medical records as an abortion. And I couldn't get treatment until I provided clinical proof that my baby was already dead -- I couldn't even see the doctor for my D&C until it was proven that my baby had no heartbeat (which the doctor would of course have checked before doing the procedure). THIS is what the "pro-life" movement does. They make it more difficult for grieving women to get the treatment they need. Make me feel SHAME that my baby died. That's not pro-"LIFE" it's anti-life and anti-caring and anti-women. Show some compassion for your fellow women.

^ I think you have a unique environment. Anecdotal evidence. If abortions were banned, u.s. government costs would skyrocket with the births and taxpayer burden.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone who got pregnant unexpectedly in her 20s at the beginning of a relationship: I think abortion is morally wrong but shouldn't be illegal. Kind of like cheating/affairs. And realistically, there's no real way to enforce it. If you make it illegal except in cases of rape or incest, everyone will just claim they were raped (which will open up a whole other set of problems).

I also think if people want to stop abortion, they need to focus on providing support for women who find themselves pregnant with little support. People were happy to shame and judge me, but not willing to help out. There are very little resources for women who need it. Anyone who feels strongly pro-life needs to be donating money, diapers, baby items, etc for women and babies who need them.

+1,000 And not just the "things" but resources of paid time off from work, affordable childcare, etc. Those are the issues pro-lifers can work on--make it feasible for a 20-something single woman making $60K a year (being generous) to support a child.

NP but pro-life families I know do not believe women should work. They believe you get married, have kids, stop working.

Anonymous wrote:I think we should reference the position of pro-abortion & anti-abortion. Instead of pro-choice/pro-life.

Just because I am pro-choice, it does not imply that I am not pro-life.

I think that's inaccurate. The vast, vast majority of pro-choicers are not advocating abortion, or trying to push it onto women who want to have babies. They want women to have the choice. Whether that choice is abortion is up to the woman at issue.

I prefer the terms pro-choice/anti-choice.

Anonymous wrote:As someone who got pregnant unexpectedly in her 20s at the beginning of a relationship: I think abortion is morally wrong but shouldn't be illegal. Kind of like cheating/affairs. And realistically, there's no real way to enforce it. If you make it illegal except in cases of rape or incest, everyone will just claim they were raped (which will open up a whole other set of problems).

I also think if people want to stop abortion, they need to focus on providing support for women who find themselves pregnant with little support. People were happy to shame and judge me, but not willing to help out. There are very little resources for women who need it. Anyone who feels strongly pro-life needs to be donating money, diapers, baby items, etc for women and babies who need them.

+1,000 And not just the "things" but resources of paid time off from work, affordable childcare, etc. Those are the issues pro-lifers can work on--make it feasible for a 20-something single woman making $60K a year (being generous) to support a child.

This was not a moral or religious issue, or even part of the conservative agenda until it was.

Samantha Bee's take on it was very illuminating:

http://www.businessinsider.com/samantha-bee-history-of-pro-life-movement-2016-5

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Human beings suck. I have given up hope that things will ever be good for the human race. Humans are just another species fighting for survival. You are born, your hormones kick in and you reproduce and then you die. If you kill your baby please stop blabbing on that you are some educated, intelligent person who thinks abortion is a good thing. It is just another way that humans suck!

I am the PP whose child died in my arms. Do you think that you had a right to make me choose her abortion? Or to dictate that I had to go through the agony of her death?
Get over yourself.

By the way. I have had miscarriages too. And I would argue that the loss experienced during a miscarriage is not the same as having a living breathing child that survives and is assigned a social security number with staff to care for them. This is not a simple black and white issue.

And there are a lot of good people in the world. Just because opinions differ doesn't make people bad.

Anonymous wrote:Human beings suck. I have given up hope that things will ever be good for the human race. Humans are just another species fighting for survival. You are born, your hormones kick in and you reproduce and then you die. If you kill your baby please stop blabbing on that you are some educated, intelligent person who thinks abortion is a good thing. It is just another way that humans suck!

I am the PP whose child died in my arms. Do you think that you had a right to make me choose her abortion? Or to dictate that I had to go through the agony of her death?
Get over yourself.

I just saw this on facebook and it seems prescient.

"You can never ban abortions. You can just ban safe abortions"

So know that when you advocate for anti abortion legislation. What you're doing will not prevent abortions, it will just result in tragedy.

If you want to do the most effective thing in your power to reduce the number of abortions, then advocate for sex education, unrestricted access to birth control and community support for families and moms and children.

Human beings suck. I have given up hope that things will ever be good for the human race. Humans are just another species fighting for survival. You are born, your hormones kick in and you reproduce and then you die. If you kill your baby please stop blabbing on that you are some educated, intelligent person who thinks abortion is a good thing. It is just another way that humans suck!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The only reason you pro choice people can be on this thread is because you weren't aborted. How many of you would be ok with it if your parent had decided to abort you?

You do realize that if I'd been aborted, I would never have been born and therefore couldn't have feelings about my abortion?

I don't have any narcissistic complexes to think that the world wouldn't turn without my existence. My parents would have had another kid. that kid might have gone into the world and done so many more things than I ever did. We don't lament that non-person's life that never occurred.

Again, this is just another excuse to shame women for having sex.

+1. I likely exist because my mother had an abortion at age 23. If she'd had that baby, I highly doubt she would have gone on to have me (at age 34) and my sister (at age 36). She didn't want kids until her 30s.

Maybe that baby she aborted at age 23 would have brought peace to the Middle East. Maybe h/she would have been the next Hitler or Stalin. We'll never know. And like PP, though I am pleased to be here, I don't have any illusions that my life is important to anyone except me and my family.

I, personally, would have a very hard time aborting for anything other than a major disability or defect or health risk to me. But that's easy for me to say because if I found myself with an unexpected and unwanted pregnancy, I have the financial resources to raise the child. A lot of people don't and I'm not going to judge their choices. The interests of a non-viable fetus do not supersede those of the person already here. If we had the technology to incubate the fetus externally from the get-go, I might feel differently. But as it is, there's a hard choice to be made sometimes, and I feel strongly that the needs and wants of the person who already exists should take precedence.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The only reason you pro choice people can be on this thread is because you weren't aborted. How many of you would be ok with it if your parent had decided to abort you?

I am pro-choice BECAUSE I think all children deserve to be wanted. I have never doubted my parent's love, attention or care. I thought about my baby before she was born and picked a good father for her and a good job for me.

I had to go through miscarriages and IVF for my baby though. I do know how precious life is.

Yeah for you! I was an unwanted, unloved baby but I think I deserve to be here.

Wouldn't you rather that you were born to parents who wanted you?

I also find pro-life arguments incredibly hypocritical in the age of IVF. I have two Catholic neighbors who are vehemently pro-life who have both had children from IVF. I am happy they were able to have their kids, but the fact is, there are multiple fertilized embryos created between both of them that are highly unlikely to be used, and are most likely going to be destroyed at some point. Isn't that murder under their mental framework? Further, implanting more than one fertilized egg in a women with female factor infertility could be argued to be sending that "baby" (pro-life language, certainly not mine) on a death mission, as the odds of that pregnancy working are much lower than in nature. Fact is, while there are more abortions in raw numbers than IVF procedures, each IVF procedure will result in more lost embryos than any one abortion. I fully support IVF by the way, but people use a lot of mental gymnastics in attempt to have the moral high ground, and it needs to be called out. I found this article very useful in pointing out this hypocrisy, as well as further proving that it really is about controlling women's bodies:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/fertility-clinics-destroy-embryos-all-the-time-why-arent-conservatives-after-them/2015/08/13/be06e852-4128-11e5-8e7d-9c033e6745d8_story.html?utm_term=.487b05ef1923

I think we should reference the position of pro-abortion & anti-abortion. Instead of pro-choice/pro-life.

Just because I am pro-choice, it does not imply that I am not pro-life.

Anonymous wrote:As someone who got pregnant unexpectedly in her 20s at the beginning of a relationship: I think abortion is morally wrong but shouldn't be illegal. Kind of like cheating/affairs. And realistically, there's no real way to enforce it. If you make it illegal except in cases of rape or incest, everyone will just claim they were raped (which will open up a whole other set of problems).

I also think if people want to stop abortion, they need to focus on providing support for women who find themselves pregnant with little support. People were happy to shame and judge me, but not willing to help out. There are very little resources for women who need it. Anyone who feels strongly pro-life needs to be donating money, diapers, baby items, etc for women and babies who need them.

EXCELLENT POINT.

I would be curious to the counter argument from the pro-lifers on how they would enforce/verify rapes, incest, etc.