Anonymous wrote:P.S. Arguing with you feels exactly like arguing with Muslima.

Cherry-picking scripture? Check

Claiming "it's all about context" while seeming determined to ignore the actual context? Check

Deliberately missing the big picture, the broad message, of Jesus' words, so long as it conflicts with your position on a narrow issue? Check

Anonymous wrote:P.S. Arguing with you feels exactly like arguing with Muslima.

Cherry-picking scripture? Check

Claiming "it's all about context" while seeming determined to ignore the actual context? Check

Deliberately missing the big picture, the broad message, of Jesus' words, so long as it conflicts with your position on a narrow issue? Check

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You have yet to point to any passage that convincingly says that God says homosexuality is a sin.

Well, unless you have a direct line to God, we typically believe what the prophets and Jesus state in the Bible is what God is saying.

Leviticus 18:22: "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

Your argument is weird. Is there a passage in the Bible that explicitly prohibits pedophilia? Or let's look at slavery. Would Jesus condone slavery since there is a passage in the Bible that states: "Slaves obey your masters"?

My DC sometimes kicks the back of my chair in the car. I tell DC to stop. Then a few seconds later I feel pounding again. I say to DC, "I told you to stop". DC says, "But, I wasn't kicking it. I was punching it". This is the type of argument you are using, that you would only consider what Jesus explicitly states as the truth, and not the spirit of what he is saying. This is how my 8 yr old reasons.

Not the PP, but P.S. comparing being gay to pedophilia (and slavery!) is super homophobic. If the homophobia label wasn't warranted before (it was), it's fair game now. I'm sure even your 8-year-old could see the distinctions.

Not even close. The logic the PP or you were using is that if Christ didn't explicitly state that homosexuality is a sin, then it must not be. Just applying that same logic to other sins that were not explicitly address by Christ.

No, you're the one with the bizarre logic. You're saying, it's true that Jesus never mentioned homosexuality. But you think you know for sure--for sure!-- that God disapproves. Because you have a direct pipeline to God? Or because you just "know" this somehow. With no other explanation. And your personal and cultural biases have nothing to do with it. Therefore, we should all read "homosexuality is bad" into the gospels anyway.

Truly a WTF moment.

Whatever my faults, at least I don't claim to speak for God when interpreting passages.

Leviticus is pretty clear on this issue. I'm not sure what the debate about what Jesus thinks is all about. Jesus's arrival in the new testament washed our sins outlined in the old testament away.

So back to page 1 of this thread. Leviticus tells you not to eat shellfish or wear mixed fibers. But you do both, right? Why? Because Jesus did away with the types of rules that are in Leviticus. Why people point to this one passage in Leviticus and feel free to ignore all the rest is beyond me.

Who is ignoring the rest? Someone asked about a passage directly on homosexuality. They got it. Just b/c Jesus's death washes away the sins of the old testament doesn't mean he condones them. It doesn't give believers a free pass to sin as they want. It just means we are not condemned by them.

+1 Very well stated.

Do people understand why the Jews were given these laws in Leviticus? Do we need a crash course Bible study here?

Clearly we need a crash course on Jesus' attitudes towards Leviticus. You keep citing it, and citing it very selectively no less, but you've stripped the entire Christian overlay from it. Newsflash: you're not Jewish, at least according to your statements here. Why don't you take a break and study the changes Jesus made in the faith and then come back and argue like an informed person.

Also a crash course in logic, i.e. how you can't insert your own belief system into a vacuum and call it God's will. Yikes! You people scare me.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You have yet to point to any passage that convincingly says that God says homosexuality is a sin.

Well, unless you have a direct line to God, we typically believe what the prophets and Jesus state in the Bible is what God is saying.

Leviticus 18:22: "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

Your argument is weird. Is there a passage in the Bible that explicitly prohibits pedophilia? Or let's look at slavery. Would Jesus condone slavery since there is a passage in the Bible that states: "Slaves obey your masters"?

My DC sometimes kicks the back of my chair in the car. I tell DC to stop. Then a few seconds later I feel pounding again. I say to DC, "I told you to stop". DC says, "But, I wasn't kicking it. I was punching it". This is the type of argument you are using, that you would only consider what Jesus explicitly states as the truth, and not the spirit of what he is saying. This is how my 8 yr old reasons.

Not the PP, but P.S. comparing being gay to pedophilia (and slavery!) is super homophobic. If the homophobia label wasn't warranted before (it was), it's fair game now. I'm sure even your 8-year-old could see the distinctions.

Not even close. The logic the PP or you were using is that if Christ didn't explicitly state that homosexuality is a sin, then it must not be. Just applying that same logic to other sins that were not explicitly address by Christ.

No, you're the one with the bizarre logic. You're saying, it's true that Jesus never mentioned homosexuality. But you think you know for sure--for sure!-- that God disapproves. Because you have a direct pipeline to God? Or because you just "know" this somehow. With no other explanation. And your personal and cultural biases have nothing to do with it. Therefore, we should all read "homosexuality is bad" into the gospels anyway.

Truly a WTF moment.

Whatever my faults, at least I don't claim to speak for God when interpreting passages.

Leviticus is pretty clear on this issue. I'm not sure what the debate about what Jesus thinks is all about. Jesus's arrival in the new testament washed our sins outlined in the old testament away.

So back to page 1 of this thread. Leviticus tells you not to eat shellfish or wear mixed fibers. But you do both, right? Why? Because Jesus did away with the types of rules that are in Leviticus. Why people point to this one passage in Leviticus and feel free to ignore all the rest is beyond me.

Who is ignoring the rest? Someone asked about a passage directly on homosexuality. They got it. Just b/c Jesus's death washes away the sins of the old testament doesn't mean he condones them. It doesn't give believers a free pass to sin as they want. It just means we are not condemned by them.

+1 Very well stated.

Do people understand why the Jews were given these laws in Leviticus? Do we need a crash course Bible study here?

Clearly we need a crash course on Jesus' attitudes towards Leviticus. You keep citing it, and citing it very selectively no less, but you've stripped the entire Christian overlay from it. Newsflash: you're not Jewish, at least according to your statements here. Why don't you take a break and study the changes Jesus made in the faith and then come back and argue like an informed person.

Also a crash course in logic, i.e. how you can't insert your own belief system into a vacuum and call it God's will. Yikes! You people scare me.

Are you saying that Leviticus doesn't matter? That we should just erase it from the bible entirely? I'm not sure what your point is regarding "Jesus's attitude." Please explain.

Quiet honestly, there is no way to "explain away" the verse. It's also not the only one. There are numerous references that note Gods intention was for a man to be with a woman. The issue is not if God approves of homosexuality. That's decided. It's what does that mean and are homosexuals condemned by their actions. The New Testament clearly says: No.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem with the idea that being gay is a sin is that it forces gay people to be something they are not. It forces them to live a lie that is far more destructive than the truth. It tells them that they are less than, that they are sinful and damaged, that they are broken. Have you known a closeted gay person who then came out? To be able to be yourself, fall in love, and live your true life is far closer to what God wants for us.

Gay people cannot become straight. They cannot "repent" and live a happy, fulfilled life as a straight person. We shouldn't ask them to. I don't believe Jesus would.

If you consider having sex with someone of the same gender a sin, that does not necessarily mean that you want someone to lie or live in the closet. The sin is the act, not the person. I suppose the only real answer Christianity provides is to remain celibate in the case that you are gay. But to lie, feel "broken" etc., is not necessarily true.

Thankfully, there are plenty of Christians who don't believe that gay people have to live in celibacy. Only homophobes who think it's a sin think that's a fair solution. The rest of us have realized it isn't a sin in the first place.

No, the "rest of you" have simply discarded the parts of the Bible that for whatever reason (to be cool/ popular with your elite neighbors?), you don't like.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You have yet to point to any passage that convincingly says that God says homosexuality is a sin.

Well, unless you have a direct line to God, we typically believe what the prophets and Jesus state in the Bible is what God is saying.

Leviticus 18:22: "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

Your argument is weird. Is there a passage in the Bible that explicitly prohibits pedophilia? Or let's look at slavery. Would Jesus condone slavery since there is a passage in the Bible that states: "Slaves obey your masters"?

My DC sometimes kicks the back of my chair in the car. I tell DC to stop. Then a few seconds later I feel pounding again. I say to DC, "I told you to stop". DC says, "But, I wasn't kicking it. I was punching it". This is the type of argument you are using, that you would only consider what Jesus explicitly states as the truth, and not the spirit of what he is saying. This is how my 8 yr old reasons.

Not the PP, but P.S. comparing being gay to pedophilia (and slavery!) is super homophobic. If the homophobia label wasn't warranted before (it was), it's fair game now. I'm sure even your 8-year-old could see the distinctions.

Not even close. The logic the PP or you were using is that if Christ didn't explicitly state that homosexuality is a sin, then it must not be. Just applying that same logic to other sins that were not explicitly address by Christ.

No, you're the one with the bizarre logic. You're saying, it's true that Jesus never mentioned homosexuality. But you think you know for sure--for sure!-- that God disapproves. Because you have a direct pipeline to God? Or because you just "know" this somehow. With no other explanation. And your personal and cultural biases have nothing to do with it. Therefore, we should all read "homosexuality is bad" into the gospels anyway.

Truly a WTF moment.

Whatever my faults, at least I don't claim to speak for God when interpreting passages.

Leviticus is pretty clear on this issue. I'm not sure what the debate about what Jesus thinks is all about. Jesus's arrival in the new testament washed our sins outlined in the old testament away.

So back to page 1 of this thread. Leviticus tells you not to eat shellfish or wear mixed fibers. But you do both, right? Why? Because Jesus did away with the types of rules that are in Leviticus. Why people point to this one passage in Leviticus and feel free to ignore all the rest is beyond me.

Who is ignoring the rest? Someone asked about a passage directly on homosexuality. They got it. Just b/c Jesus's death washes away the sins of the old testament doesn't mean he condones them. It doesn't give believers a free pass to sin as they want. It just means we are not condemned by them.

+1 Very well stated.

Do people understand why the Jews were given these laws in Leviticus? Do we need a crash course Bible study here?

Clearly we need a crash course on Jesus' attitudes towards Leviticus. You keep citing it, and citing it very selectively no less, but you've stripped the entire Christian overlay from it. Newsflash: you're not Jewish, at least according to your statements here. Why don't you take a break and study the changes Jesus made in the faith and then come back and argue like an informed person.

Also a crash course in logic, i.e. how you can't insert your own belief system into a vacuum and call it God's will. Yikes! You people scare me.

Anonymous wrote:
Yes, if my child grows up to be homophobic, I would label it as such and I would be disappointed in them. We know better. Our Christian faith teaches us to do better.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem with the idea that being gay is a sin is that it forces gay people to be something they are not. It forces them to live a lie that is far more destructive than the truth. It tells them that they are less than, that they are sinful and damaged, that they are broken. Have you known a closeted gay person who then came out? To be able to be yourself, fall in love, and live your true life is far closer to what God wants for us.

Gay people cannot become straight. They cannot "repent" and live a happy, fulfilled life as a straight person. We shouldn't ask them to. I don't believe Jesus would.

If you consider having sex with someone of the same gender a sin, that does not necessarily mean that you want someone to lie or live in the closet. The sin is the act, not the person. I suppose the only real answer Christianity provides is to remain celibate in the case that you are gay. But to lie, feel "broken" etc., is not necessarily true.

Thankfully, there are plenty of Christians who don't believe that gay people have to live in celibacy. Only homophobes who think it's a sin think that's a fair solution. The rest of us have realized it isn't a sin in the first place.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You have yet to point to any passage that convincingly says that God says homosexuality is a sin.

Well, unless you have a direct line to God, we typically believe what the prophets and Jesus state in the Bible is what God is saying.

Leviticus 18:22: "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

Your argument is weird. Is there a passage in the Bible that explicitly prohibits pedophilia? Or let's look at slavery. Would Jesus condone slavery since there is a passage in the Bible that states: "Slaves obey your masters"?

My DC sometimes kicks the back of my chair in the car. I tell DC to stop. Then a few seconds later I feel pounding again. I say to DC, "I told you to stop". DC says, "But, I wasn't kicking it. I was punching it". This is the type of argument you are using, that you would only consider what Jesus explicitly states as the truth, and not the spirit of what he is saying. This is how my 8 yr old reasons.

Not the PP, but P.S. comparing being gay to pedophilia (and slavery!) is super homophobic. If the homophobia label wasn't warranted before (it was), it's fair game now. I'm sure even your 8-year-old could see the distinctions.

Not even close. The logic the PP or you were using is that if Christ didn't explicitly state that homosexuality is a sin, then it must not be. Just applying that same logic to other sins that were not explicitly address by Christ.

No, you're the one with the bizarre logic. You're saying, it's true that Jesus never mentioned homosexuality. But you think you know for sure--for sure!-- that God disapproves. Because you have a direct pipeline to God? Or because you just "know" this somehow. With no other explanation. And your personal and cultural biases have nothing to do with it. Therefore, we should all read "homosexuality is bad" into the gospels anyway.

Truly a WTF moment.

Whatever my faults, at least I don't claim to speak for God when interpreting passages.

Leviticus is pretty clear on this issue. I'm not sure what the debate about what Jesus thinks is all about. Jesus's arrival in the new testament washed our sins outlined in the old testament away.

So back to page 1 of this thread. Leviticus tells you not to eat shellfish or wear mixed fibers. But you do both, right? Why? Because Jesus did away with the types of rules that are in Leviticus. Why people point to this one passage in Leviticus and feel free to ignore all the rest is beyond me.

Who is ignoring the rest? Someone asked about a passage directly on homosexuality. They got it. Just b/c Jesus's death washes away the sins of the old testament doesn't mean he condones them. It doesn't give believers a free pass to sin as they want. It just means we are not condemned by them.

+1 Very well stated.

Do people understand why the Jews were given these laws in Leviticus? Do we need a crash course Bible study here?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

What? Yes, there is a Biblical basis for condemning homosexuality. Many of us are able to reconcile it without any hardship whatsoever because there are so many other historical relics in the Bible --a book written by men -- that society has long since discarded.

People had already answered your question. You just want to tell them why they're wrong.

If your child is gay, are you okay with them living their life as an out gay person in a gay relationship, and will you recognize that their relationship is as precious and sacred and loving as your own? If not, all your lip service about being loving and accepting means very little.

If this verse written by Paul (who wrote much of the New Testament) is a historical relic, then it is easy to dismiss anything he wrote, and just do whatever I want. Why bother with Christianity in that case? If that is the answer, no, I don't find that very convincing.

My priority is not to explicitly approve of every single thing my children do. I am raising my children to think for themselves and make decisions on their own. If they feel that they are right with God, that is what matters to me, not whether I think their relationships are "precious and sacred and loving."

I'll take that as a no, then.

As a Christian, my approval is not what is important. That's a very self-centered, worldly perspective. We are theoretically reaching for something better than that. I would not be happy if my children lived with a partner before marriage, or were materialistic, or what have you. Any number of outcomes would be bad from my perspective. But to me, that's not really important. What is important is that I raise them to know who Jesus Christ is. What they do after that is their choice. And if they made choices I disagreed with, I would try to deal with them in a Christian way, and not reject them (which is not what Christ would do). Your children will make choices you don't agree with, and if your post here is any indication, you are not exactly going to handle it well.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You have yet to point to any passage that convincingly says that God says homosexuality is a sin.

Well, unless you have a direct line to God, we typically believe what the prophets and Jesus state in the Bible is what God is saying.

Leviticus 18:22: "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

Your argument is weird. Is there a passage in the Bible that explicitly prohibits pedophilia? Or let's look at slavery. Would Jesus condone slavery since there is a passage in the Bible that states: "Slaves obey your masters"?

My DC sometimes kicks the back of my chair in the car. I tell DC to stop. Then a few seconds later I feel pounding again. I say to DC, "I told you to stop". DC says, "But, I wasn't kicking it. I was punching it". This is the type of argument you are using, that you would only consider what Jesus explicitly states as the truth, and not the spirit of what he is saying. This is how my 8 yr old reasons.

Not the PP, but P.S. comparing being gay to pedophilia (and slavery!) is super homophobic. If the homophobia label wasn't warranted before (it was), it's fair game now. I'm sure even your 8-year-old could see the distinctions.

Not even close. The logic the PP or you were using is that if Christ didn't explicitly state that homosexuality is a sin, then it must not be. Just applying that same logic to other sins that were not explicitly address by Christ.

No, you're the one with the bizarre logic. You're saying, it's true that Jesus never mentioned homosexuality. But you think you know for sure--for sure!-- that God disapproves. Because you have a direct pipeline to God? Or because you just "know" this somehow. With no other explanation. And your personal and cultural biases have nothing to do with it. Therefore, we should all read "homosexuality is bad" into the gospels anyway.

Truly a WTF moment.

Whatever my faults, at least I don't claim to speak for God when interpreting passages.

Let me repost what you stated here with a different "sin":

" it's true that Jesus never mentioned beastiality.. But you think you know for sure--for sure!-- that God disapproves. Because you have a direct pipeline to God? Or because you just "know" this somehow."

Like I said, we can say that about any "sin" that Jesus never mentions directly.

BTW, I never talk about this stuff or think much about it in IRL to anyone because it's really not that important in terms of my belief. My DC's BF has gay parents. DC and friend have had sleepovers and hang out a lot. It doesn't bother me one bit. Just because I post on here about how I interpret the Bible doesn't make me homophobic.

I'm not a member of the Westboro Baptist church who goes around picketing gays. But, since OP brought up this topic on a forum, I threw my 2 cents in. You can believe what you like, as does everyone else, but I do find it interesting to see how people reason how Jesus doesn't consider homosexuality a sin.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You have yet to point to any passage that convincingly says that God says homosexuality is a sin.

Well, unless you have a direct line to God, we typically believe what the prophets and Jesus state in the Bible is what God is saying.

Leviticus 18:22: "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

Your argument is weird. Is there a passage in the Bible that explicitly prohibits pedophilia? Or let's look at slavery. Would Jesus condone slavery since there is a passage in the Bible that states: "Slaves obey your masters"?

My DC sometimes kicks the back of my chair in the car. I tell DC to stop. Then a few seconds later I feel pounding again. I say to DC, "I told you to stop". DC says, "But, I wasn't kicking it. I was punching it". This is the type of argument you are using, that you would only consider what Jesus explicitly states as the truth, and not the spirit of what he is saying. This is how my 8 yr old reasons.

Not the PP, but P.S. comparing being gay to pedophilia (and slavery!) is super homophobic. If the homophobia label wasn't warranted before (it was), it's fair game now. I'm sure even your 8-year-old could see the distinctions.

Not even close. The logic the PP or you were using is that if Christ didn't explicitly state that homosexuality is a sin, then it must not be. Just applying that same logic to other sins that were not explicitly address by Christ.

No, you're the one with the bizarre logic. You're saying, it's true that Jesus never mentioned homosexuality. But you think you know for sure--for sure!-- that God disapproves. Because you have a direct pipeline to God? Or because you just "know" this somehow. With no other explanation. And your personal and cultural biases have nothing to do with it. Therefore, we should all read "homosexuality is bad" into the gospels anyway.

Truly a WTF moment.

Whatever my faults, at least I don't claim to speak for God when interpreting passages.

Leviticus is pretty clear on this issue. I'm not sure what the debate about what Jesus thinks is all about. Jesus's arrival in the new testament washed our sins outlined in the old testament away.

So back to page 1 of this thread. Leviticus tells you not to eat shellfish or wear mixed fibers. But you do both, right? Why? Because Jesus did away with the types of rules that are in Leviticus. Why people point to this one passage in Leviticus and feel free to ignore all the rest is beyond me.

Who is ignoring the rest? Someone asked about a passage directly on homosexuality. They got it. Just b/c Jesus's death washes away the sins of the old testament doesn't mean he condones them. It doesn't give believers a free pass to sin as they want. It just means we are not condemned by them.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You have yet to point to any passage that convincingly says that God says homosexuality is a sin.

Well, unless you have a direct line to God, we typically believe what the prophets and Jesus state in the Bible is what God is saying.

Leviticus 18:22: "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

Your argument is weird. Is there a passage in the Bible that explicitly prohibits pedophilia? Or let's look at slavery. Would Jesus condone slavery since there is a passage in the Bible that states: "Slaves obey your masters"?

My DC sometimes kicks the back of my chair in the car. I tell DC to stop. Then a few seconds later I feel pounding again. I say to DC, "I told you to stop". DC says, "But, I wasn't kicking it. I was punching it". This is the type of argument you are using, that you would only consider what Jesus explicitly states as the truth, and not the spirit of what he is saying. This is how my 8 yr old reasons.

Not the PP, but P.S. comparing being gay to pedophilia (and slavery!) is super homophobic. If the homophobia label wasn't warranted before (it was), it's fair game now. I'm sure even your 8-year-old could see the distinctions.

Not even close. The logic the PP or you were using is that if Christ didn't explicitly state that homosexuality is a sin, then it must not be. Just applying that same logic to other sins that were not explicitly address by Christ.

No, you're the one with the bizarre logic. You're saying, it's true that Jesus never mentioned homosexuality. But you think you know for sure--for sure!-- that God disapproves. Because you have a direct pipeline to God? Or because you just "know" this somehow. With no other explanation. And your personal and cultural biases have nothing to do with it. Therefore, we should all read "homosexuality is bad" into the gospels anyway.

Truly a WTF moment.

Whatever my faults, at least I don't claim to speak for God when interpreting passages.

Leviticus is pretty clear on this issue. I'm not sure what the debate about what Jesus thinks is all about. Jesus's arrival in the new testament washed our sins outlined in the old testament away.

So back to page 1 of this thread. Leviticus tells you not to eat shellfish or wear mixed fibers. But you do both, right? Why? Because Jesus did away with the types of rules that are in Leviticus. Why people point to this one passage in Leviticus and feel free to ignore all the rest is beyond me.