Anonymous wrote:

It's not that "touching someone else to fill a need" is the problem. It's the willful, deliberate, calculated breach of trust that ruins a relationship

when you get married, there is the marital contract/trust that part of being married is maintaining physical and emotional intimacy. So if one spouse unilaterally decides that this part of the relationship is over, why is that not a willful, deliberate, calculated breach of trust? "I am going to stay married and use my spouse for all the financial and other kinds of supper s/he offers, but I am going to renege on part of the deal, in the knowledge that I can make it very painful for the spouse to leave and place all the blame on them. This is not to say that all partners who cheat do so because they have experienced a breach of trust, but that is sometimes the case.

Cheating is about as justified/unjustified as regularly denying your partner affection. I really dont see why one is sorta kinda excusable but the other is an immediate dealbreaker?

Honestly, I was very black or white on cheating until I was cheated on and then, suddenly it didn't seem as simple as that. There was no lack of intimacy in our marriage but there were other issues that I honestly ignored because, we had 80 percent, so the 20 percent didn't matter IMO, except, it very much mattered to my husband.

Was it hurtful that he cheated? Hell yes. Trust broken, betrayal -- all that. Was it right? No. But after going through that, I am always kind sad for some of the people here who think that people are not going to do stupid things when they feel cornered and caged because of lack of intimacy and they had tried to change or discuss or seek counseling or do all of those things. I mean they have programs for people to go hug babies at hospitals because touch is a NEED and for the person you love to just snatch it away and say "gone forever, deal" seems like a recipe for what is happening all over the place -- people stepping out on their spouses.

It's not that "touching someone else to fill a need" is the problem. It's the willful, deliberate, calculated breach of trust that ruins a relationship

when you get married, there is the marital contract/trust that part of being married is maintaining physical and emotional intimacy. So if one spouse unilaterally decides that this part of the relationship is over, why is that not a willful, deliberate, calculated breach of trust? "I am going to stay married and use my spouse for all the financial and other kinds of supper s/he offers, but I am going to renege on part of the deal, in the knowledge that I can make it very painful for the spouse to leave and place all the blame on them. This is not to say that all partners who cheat do so because they have experienced a breach of trust, but that is sometimes the case.

Cheating is about as justified/unjustified as regularly denying your partner affection. I really dont see why one is sorta kinda excusable but the other is an immediate dealbreaker?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is exactly when an affair is justifiable. When you would do your spouse more harm by leaving them then by having a discreet affair. My DW went years with zero desire after the kids were born. I had a couple affairs that allowed me to stay married and sane. She regained her libido, I am faithful now, we are very happy family.

OP, you need to put on your own oxygen mask before assisting others.

"Put on your oxygen mask" by jumping overboard. Great plan, PP! And when that "discreet affair" blows up?

Well, if she gets caught it will either be the wake up call her DH needs or it will lead to divorce. She is going to end up divorced or miserable anyway if she doesn't have an affair.

Signed - a DH who was never caught and knows plenty of others who weren't caught.

This "logic" makes absolutely no sense to me, and I'm so disheartened to see so much of it. You're faced with a problem. You can address the problem, ignore the problem and go on as-is, leave (because the problem isn't solveable/worth trying to solve), or do something that, if discovered, not only exacerbates the original problem, but drops several more beside it.

And you chose the latter?! Even if you don't get caught by someone else, YOU KNOW. Is your integrity really so valueless?

I have noticed that people classify those who cheat as those who take this easy way out, who didn't address the problem, etc. Guess what? It takes two to tango. I would hazard to guess that not an insignificant number of people who cheat have tried to talk to their spouses about the problems in their marriage and the spouses denied the problem or just didn't listen and relied on "vows" to keep fidelity in the marriage while not working on the problems at hand. Throw kids and finances into the mix and it becomes very hard to leave.

Actually, PP, you seem to have proven the point. "It's very hard to leave..." so I'll just cheat instead. Cheating basically says your immediate wants are more important than your obligations to your marriage. If your partner can't/won't fix the problem, and you really have tried everything you possibly could, then you leave. You may not be able to leave right this second, but you can figure it out, and you can keep you genitals to yourself in the interim.

The fact that you put "vows" in quotes says a lot.

Vows were in quotes because people break them all of the time. Denying your partner emotional support? Not having your partners back? Etc Etc. Nothing in a marriage happens in a vacuum and relying on existential vows that were said in the rosy honeymoon of a relationship are basically rendered meaningless when one or both parties refuse to care for each other. But people loooove being a victim so often they don't look at the role they played in their marriage breakdown. My DH is one of them. His exwife chafed and left. He was the victim. I was too naive to understand these dynamics. We married had kids and 14 years later if the kids weren't In the picture I would have walked. He learned very little from his prior failed marriage be ways he refused to acknowledge his role, he refused to go to counseling to understand any of it. After a solid year of couples counseling things are tolerable enough for me to stay but a very important emotional side of me, the side that yearns for an emotional and sexual connection that just isn't important to my DH anymore, for reasons he will not divulge, feels dead. Yet there is no abuse, he is gainfully employed, and my kids are happy and our home life is low conflict. People on here say unless there is cheating or a use don't break up your family. You are saying nah, just leave. And what about the kids? You can't have it both ways.

So, this is not a black or white thing, no matter how much you and others try to make it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is exactly when an affair is justifiable. When you would do your spouse more harm by leaving them then by having a discreet affair. My DW went years with zero desire after the kids were born. I had a couple affairs that allowed me to stay married and sane. She regained her libido, I am faithful now, we are very happy family.

OP, you need to put on your own oxygen mask before assisting others.

"Put on your oxygen mask" by jumping overboard. Great plan, PP! And when that "discreet affair" blows up?

Well, if she gets caught it will either be the wake up call her DH needs or it will lead to divorce. She is going to end up divorced or miserable anyway if she doesn't have an affair.

Signed - a DH who was never caught and knows plenty of others who weren't caught.

This "logic" makes absolutely no sense to me, and I'm so disheartened to see so much of it. You're faced with a problem. You can address the problem, ignore the problem and go on as-is, leave (because the problem isn't solveable/worth trying to solve), or do something that, if discovered, not only exacerbates the original problem, but drops several more beside it.

And you chose the latter?! Even if you don't get caught by someone else, YOU KNOW. Is your integrity really so valueless?

I have noticed that people classify those who cheat as those who take this easy way out, who didn't address the problem, etc. Guess what? It takes two to tango. I would hazard to guess that not an insignificant number of people who cheat have tried to talk to their spouses about the problems in their marriage and the spouses denied the problem or just didn't listen and relied on "vows" to keep fidelity in the marriage while not working on the problems at hand. Throw kids and finances into the mix and it becomes very hard to leave.

Actually, PP, you seem to have proven the point. "It's very hard to leave..." so I'll just cheat instead. Cheating basically says your immediate wants are more important than your obligations to your marriage. If your partner can't/won't fix the problem, and you really have tried everything you possibly could, then you leave. You may not be able to leave right this second, but you can figure it out, and you can keep you genitals to yourself in the interim.

The fact that you put "vows" in quotes says a lot.

Anonymous wrote:This is exactly when an affair is justifiable. When you would do your spouse more harm by leaving them then by having a discreet affair. My DW went years with zero desire after the kids were born. I had a couple affairs that allowed me to stay married and sane. She regained her libido, I am faithful now, we are very happy family.

OP, you need to put on your own oxygen mask before assisting others.

You don't get to decide (for someone else!) when an affair is justifiable. Doubt your wife would feel the same.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is exactly when an affair is justifiable. When you would do your spouse more harm by leaving them then by having a discreet affair. My DW went years with zero desire after the kids were born. I had a couple affairs that allowed me to stay married and sane. She regained her libido, I am faithful now, we are very happy family.

OP, you need to put on your own oxygen mask before assisting others.

"Put on your oxygen mask" by jumping overboard. Great plan, PP! And when that "discreet affair" blows up?

Well, if she gets caught it will either be the wake up call her DH needs or it will lead to divorce. She is going to end up divorced or miserable anyway if she doesn't have an affair.

Signed - a DH who was never caught and knows plenty of others who weren't caught.

This "logic" makes absolutely no sense to me, and I'm so disheartened to see so much of it. You're faced with a problem. You can address the problem, ignore the problem and go on as-is, leave (because the problem isn't solveable/worth trying to solve), or do something that, if discovered, not only exacerbates the original problem, but drops several more beside it.

And you chose the latter?! Even if you don't get caught by someone else, YOU KNOW. Is your integrity really so valueless?

I have noticed that people classify those who cheat as those who take this easy way out, who didn't address the problem, etc. Guess what? It takes two to tango. I would hazard to guess that not an insignificant number of people who cheat have tried to talk to their spouses about the problems in their marriage and the spouses denied the problem or just didn't listen and relied on "vows" to keep fidelity in the marriage while not working on the problems at hand. Throw kids and finances into the mix and it becomes very hard to leave.

I agree with all this. There are some -- likely a very few -- people who would cheat no matter the circumstance but I think the majority of the time people who cheat in marriages do it after feeling as if they have exhausted all other avenues to fixing the problem(s) but feel they can't leave the marriage because of kids or other obligations. And, I'm not sure they actively seek to cheat as much as they are in a place and space that allows someone else to step in and fill a need. If there is a hole in the relationship, it will get filled one way or the other.

I think this is the "logic" people use to justify cheating. "I can't leave because s/he'll be so devastated." "I can't leave because of the kids." "I can't leave because of (insert obligation here). Yeah, actually, in the vast majority of cases, you can. It may not be easy, or immediate, but it's usually possible.

You don't trip and fall into someone else's pants.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is exactly when an affair is justifiable. When you would do your spouse more harm by leaving them then by having a discreet affair. My DW went years with zero desire after the kids were born. I had a couple affairs that allowed me to stay married and sane. She regained her libido, I am faithful now, we are very happy family.

OP, you need to put on your own oxygen mask before assisting others.

"Put on your oxygen mask" by jumping overboard. Great plan, PP! And when that "discreet affair" blows up?

Well, if she gets caught it will either be the wake up call her DH needs or it will lead to divorce. She is going to end up divorced or miserable anyway if she doesn't have an affair.

Signed - a DH who was never caught and knows plenty of others who weren't caught.

This "logic" makes absolutely no sense to me, and I'm so disheartened to see so much of it. You're faced with a problem. You can address the problem, ignore the problem and go on as-is, leave (because the problem isn't solveable/worth trying to solve), or do something that, if discovered, not only exacerbates the original problem, but drops several more beside it.

And you chose the latter?! Even if you don't get caught by someone else, YOU KNOW. Is your integrity really so valueless?

Love and sex is a tricky area. Dan Savage made a good point that why is the measure of a "good" marriage that fact that our body parts didn't touch other people? How about the way the people in the marriage treat each other? Is it loving to never touch your spouse or to expect them to stop wanting to touch you because you lost interest? If all other things in the marriage are fine and your spouse touches someone else to fill a need you won't fill, now the marriage is ruined?

I don't know the answers to any of these questions, just sharing.

I agree with Mr. Savage that monogamy may/may not be the ultimate measure of a marriage, but I think that second question answers itself in this case. "How about the way the people in the marriage treat each other?" If you say no, and I do it anyway, even if I attempt to hide it from you, how am I really treating you? Like crap!

I agree that it's unloving to willfully and deliberately refuse to meet your partner's clearly expressed needs, particularly after they've asked you repeatedly. I don't see how that failure justifies cheating.

It's not that "touching someone else to fill a need" is the problem. It's the willful, deliberate, calculated breach of trust that ruins a relationship.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is exactly when an affair is justifiable. When you would do your spouse more harm by leaving them then by having a discreet affair. My DW went years with zero desire after the kids were born. I had a couple affairs that allowed me to stay married and sane. She regained her libido, I am faithful now, we are very happy family.

OP, you need to put on your own oxygen mask before assisting others.

"Put on your oxygen mask" by jumping overboard. Great plan, PP! And when that "discreet affair" blows up?

Well, if she gets caught it will either be the wake up call her DH needs or it will lead to divorce. She is going to end up divorced or miserable anyway if she doesn't have an affair.

Signed - a DH who was never caught and knows plenty of others who weren't caught.

This "logic" makes absolutely no sense to me, and I'm so disheartened to see so much of it. You're faced with a problem. You can address the problem, ignore the problem and go on as-is, leave (because the problem isn't solveable/worth trying to solve), or do something that, if discovered, not only exacerbates the original problem, but drops several more beside it.

And you chose the latter?! Even if you don't get caught by someone else, YOU KNOW. Is your integrity really so valueless?

I have noticed that people classify those who cheat as those who take this easy way out, who didn't address the problem, etc. Guess what? It takes two to tango. I would hazard to guess that not an insignificant number of people who cheat have tried to talk to their spouses about the problems in their marriage and the spouses denied the problem or just didn't listen and relied on "vows" to keep fidelity in the marriage while not working on the problems at hand. Throw kids and finances into the mix and it becomes very hard to leave.

I agree with all this. There are some -- likely a very few -- people who would cheat no matter the circumstance but I think the majority of the time people who cheat in marriages do it after feeling as if they have exhausted all other avenues to fixing the problem(s) but feel they can't leave the marriage because of kids or other obligations. And, I'm not sure they actively seek to cheat as much as they are in a place and space that allows someone else to step in and fill a need. If there is a hole in the relationship, it will get filled one way or the other.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is exactly when an affair is justifiable. When you would do your spouse more harm by leaving them then by having a discreet affair. My DW went years with zero desire after the kids were born. I had a couple affairs that allowed me to stay married and sane. She regained her libido, I am faithful now, we are very happy family.

OP, you need to put on your own oxygen mask before assisting others.

"Put on your oxygen mask" by jumping overboard. Great plan, PP! And when that "discreet affair" blows up?

Well, if she gets caught it will either be the wake up call her DH needs or it will lead to divorce. She is going to end up divorced or miserable anyway if she doesn't have an affair.

Signed - a DH who was never caught and knows plenty of others who weren't caught.

This "logic" makes absolutely no sense to me, and I'm so disheartened to see so much of it. You're faced with a problem. You can address the problem, ignore the problem and go on as-is, leave (because the problem isn't solveable/worth trying to solve), or do something that, if discovered, not only exacerbates the original problem, but drops several more beside it.

And you chose the latter?! Even if you don't get caught by someone else, YOU KNOW. Is your integrity really so valueless?

I have noticed that people classify those who cheat as those who take this easy way out, who didn't address the problem, etc. Guess what? It takes two to tango. I would hazard to guess that not an insignificant number of people who cheat have tried to talk to their spouses about the problems in their marriage and the spouses denied the problem or just didn't listen and relied on "vows" to keep fidelity in the marriage while not working on the problems at hand. Throw kids and finances into the mix and it becomes very hard to leave.

OP, I would leave him and not because of the fidelity thing, it doesn't mean much. The way you describe your marriage makes you sound more like his nurse than his partner. It's all about "my leaving will devastate him, he will become more anxious blah blah". It is not your job to make and keep another adult healthy. Believe me, your husband will deal. You owe that sort of thing to your children but not to a grown ass man. What are YOU getting out of this marriage? Other than the satisfaction of keeping a grown man non-devastated? What does he give you? In what way does he support you? How is HE keeping you non-devastated?

What I'm saying is that you have, it seems, the wrong motivation to stay married. You kind of view yourself as his crutch. And that's no good reason to stay married. Altruism runs out, and it is best yours runs out when you are still good looking and fertile. You don't say if you have children, and that would be a good reason to stay, but if not, there are other men out there who don't need nursing.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is exactly when an affair is justifiable. When you would do your spouse more harm by leaving them then by having a discreet affair. My DW went years with zero desire after the kids were born. I had a couple affairs that allowed me to stay married and sane. She regained her libido, I am faithful now, we are very happy family.

OP, you need to put on your own oxygen mask before assisting others.

"Put on your oxygen mask" by jumping overboard. Great plan, PP! And when that "discreet affair" blows up?

Well, if she gets caught it will either be the wake up call her DH needs or it will lead to divorce. She is going to end up divorced or miserable anyway if she doesn't have an affair.

Signed - a DH who was never caught and knows plenty of others who weren't caught.

This "logic" makes absolutely no sense to me, and I'm so disheartened to see so much of it. You're faced with a problem. You can address the problem, ignore the problem and go on as-is, leave (because the problem isn't solveable/worth trying to solve), or do something that, if discovered, not only exacerbates the original problem, but drops several more beside it.

And you chose the latter?! Even if you don't get caught by someone else, YOU KNOW. Is your integrity really so valueless?

Love and sex is a tricky area. Dan Savage made a good point that why is the measure of a "good" marriage that fact that our body parts didn't touch other people? How about the way the people in the marriage treat each other? Is it loving to never touch your spouse or to expect them to stop wanting to touch you because you lost interest? If all other things in the marriage are fine and your spouse touches someone else to fill a need you won't fill, now the marriage is ruined?

I don't know the answers to any of these questions, just sharing.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is exactly when an affair is justifiable. When you would do your spouse more harm by leaving them then by having a discreet affair. My DW went years with zero desire after the kids were born. I had a couple affairs that allowed me to stay married and sane. She regained her libido, I am faithful now, we are very happy family.

OP, you need to put on your own oxygen mask before assisting others.

"Put on your oxygen mask" by jumping overboard. Great plan, PP! And when that "discreet affair" blows up?

Well, if she gets caught it will either be the wake up call her DH needs or it will lead to divorce. She is going to end up divorced or miserable anyway if she doesn't have an affair.

Signed - a DH who was never caught and knows plenty of others who weren't caught.

This "logic" makes absolutely no sense to me, and I'm so disheartened to see so much of it. You're faced with a problem. You can address the problem, ignore the problem and go on as-is, leave (because the problem isn't solveable/worth trying to solve), or do something that, if discovered, not only exacerbates the original problem, but drops several more beside it.

And you chose the latter?! Even if you don't get caught by someone else, YOU KNOW. Is your integrity really so valueless?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is exactly when an affair is justifiable. When you would do your spouse more harm by leaving them then by having a discreet affair. My DW went years with zero desire after the kids were born. I had a couple affairs that allowed me to stay married and sane. She regained her libido, I am faithful now, we are very happy family.

OP, you need to put on your own oxygen mask before assisting others.

"Put on your oxygen mask" by jumping overboard. Great plan, PP! And when that "discreet affair" blows up?

Well, if she gets caught it will either be the wake up call her DH needs or it will lead to divorce. She is going to end up divorced or miserable anyway if she doesn't have an affair.

Signed - a DH who was never caught and knows plenty of others who weren't caught.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is exactly when an affair is justifiable. When you would do your spouse more harm by leaving them then by having a discreet affair. My DW went years with zero desire after the kids were born. I had a couple affairs that allowed me to stay married and sane. She regained her libido, I am faithful now, we are very happy family.

OP, you need to put on your own oxygen mask before assisting others.

"Put on your oxygen mask" by jumping overboard. Great plan, PP! And when that "discreet affair" blows up?

I'm agnostic on the having an affair thing but I don't there is a guarantee it will blow up. I think there are a good few cheaters who go undetected and I say that because I am single and dating in DC and there are a LOT of husbands on Match, OK Cupid, Tinder and so on and I mean BLATANT with it. I doubt they are all in open marriages.

Given what I've read from, and about, cheaters on this forum, I suspect there are a lot of spouses who know but try to just suck it up and deal. It's depressing.

Still, if the reason for cheating is "he'd be so anxious if I leave" (which is some martyrdom nonsense, IMO), OP needs to consider the anxiety factor of the other option(s) she's considering. People are stupid, and get caught. People get jealous/territorial and that blows the lid off an affair. There are a LOT of ways for it to go wrong, probably far more than ways it could go right.

And that's just looking at it from an agnostic perspective, and ignoring the moral/ethical issues.

Yeah, depressing is the word for all of this. And it seems like all the issues that people come to this forum to vent about stem from bedroom-related things. Sometimes money but mostly sex. It puzzles me the people who are encourage people to just ignore a natural biological urge -- sex, intimacy -- and just stay married, but it is even MORE puzzling to me the people who don't want sex and intimacy with their spouse who seem to expect they will just cut their urges off and stay married and faithful. I mean I hate coconut, it's disgusting, but I'm not going to tell my partner who loves it to just stop wanting it and never have it, because I don't ever want it. Not that simple but, kind of that simple at the same time.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is exactly when an affair is justifiable. When you would do your spouse more harm by leaving them then by having a discreet affair. My DW went years with zero desire after the kids were born. I had a couple affairs that allowed me to stay married and sane. She regained her libido, I am faithful now, we are very happy family.

OP, you need to put on your own oxygen mask before assisting others.

"Put on your oxygen mask" by jumping overboard. Great plan, PP! And when that "discreet affair" blows up?

I'm agnostic on the having an affair thing but I don't there is a guarantee it will blow up. I think there are a good few cheaters who go undetected and I say that because I am single and dating in DC and there are a LOT of husbands on Match, OK Cupid, Tinder and so on and I mean BLATANT with it. I doubt they are all in open marriages.

Given what I've read from, and about, cheaters on this forum, I suspect there are a lot of spouses who know but try to just suck it up and deal. It's depressing.

Still, if the reason for cheating is "he'd be so anxious if I leave" (which is some martyrdom nonsense, IMO), OP needs to consider the anxiety factor of the other option(s) she's considering. People are stupid, and get caught. People get jealous/territorial and that blows the lid off an affair. There are a LOT of ways for it to go wrong, probably far more than ways it could go right.

And that's just looking at it from an agnostic perspective, and ignoring the moral/ethical issues.