DCUM Forum

Anonymous

07/29/2015 12:38 Subject: Ward 6 and Miner ES: Grassroots Movement for Dual Language (Mandarin) Program

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's all a beautiful argument, but there's no way to call it anything other than what it is: a way to white-wash the classrooms. And, I get it, that's fine. Would I rather you take your kid and $s out of DCPS and go private or charter? No. It's not an either/or proposition, it's just an us/them solution - and you're right, $s for the school is $s for the school, but it would be great if that meant an equal amount would be spent on each child, or better yet, MORE Would be spent on the kids that need more, which aren't the Mandarin-immersion kids.

I'm not sure what the solution is, because this is the same problem in every other public school EOTP: gotta have a hook or it's too hard to justify sending kiddo in. To that end, is it the best solution? Mandarin just seems like the LAST thing they should be using to differentiate. Spanish, French, literally any other language will make it easier for the lower-SES parent to access, so perhaps this is what makes it seem so unpalatable.

+1billion.

+ another billion. The initiative smacks of entitlement and is more than a little naive.

Instead of taking jabs and calling people naive, please explain how you are changing the narrative at Miner; read my post above this one to see what myself and others are doing.

... Waiting... (crickets).

Anonymous

07/29/2015 12:35 Subject: Ward 6 and Miner ES: Grassroots Movement for Dual Language (Mandarin) Program

Anonymous wrote:It's all a beautiful argument, but there's no way to call it anything other than what it is: a way to white-wash the classrooms. And, I get it, that's fine. Would I rather you take your kid and $s out of DCPS and go private or charter? No. It's not an either/or proposition, it's just an us/them solution - and you're right, $s for the school is $s for the school, but it would be great if that meant an equal amount would be spent on each child, or better yet, MORE Would be spent on the kids that need more, which aren't the Mandarin-immersion kids.

I'm not sure what the solution is, because this is the same problem in every other public school EOTP: gotta have a hook or it's too hard to justify sending kiddo in. To that end, is it the best solution? Mandarin just seems like the LAST thing they should be using to differentiate. Spanish, French, literally any other language will make it easier for the lower-SES parent to access, so perhaps this is what makes it seem so unpalatable.

White-wash the classrooms? You are certainly forgetting that their are African American parents and students who would choose to go the immersion route. There are plenty of parents/kids of all backgrounds who would love the chance to help their child out by giving them a multi-lingual background. Knowing multiple languages isn't a "white" thing.

Now do I think parents who put their child in these programs are more involved in their child's education? Yes. Is that a bad thing for a school to have these type of parents? Absolutely not. Having parents who demand that the school curriculum is challenging and kids are learning is going to benefit all students in that school. Most teachers and administrators love having involved parents as well.

As far as language access, there are plenty of programs out there to support Mandarin. Spanish isn't an option (see Taylor), and DCPS chooses the language. http://miparentscouncil.org/2013/06/24/being-black-and-bilingual/ (Black and Bilingual). http://paassc.com/ (Parents of African American Students Studying Chinese)

Do I think that money needs to be spent to help all students? Certainly. But what I really think may help some of these students is that DCPS starts providing after school meals again. That's a fight I'm willing to join too. DC has done a poor job of making sure these kids have quality meals which may be the only meals they have during the day. It's a small wonder that some of these kids have trouble at school when they have empty stomachs and are worrying about what they are going home to after the day. A school can't solve all the issues at home that are disrupting a child's education, but they damn sure could give that child a full stomach before sending them home.

Do you know what the teachers at Miner want that would make their job easier? A washer and dryer so that they could wash the school uniforms for the kids who go home and don't have a option to get clean uniforms for the next day. That is certainly dedication from the teachers. How do I know this? Because I've become involved in helping the discussion to improve the whole school, like most everyone else who has started investing in Miner and is excited for the "hook" of a immersion program. BTW, people are working on getting those teachers a commercial washer and dryer.

Anonymous

07/29/2015 11:55 Subject: Re:Ward 6 and Miner ES: Grassroots Movement for Dual Language (Mandarin) Program

Anonymous wrote:

warrenox wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have read on other posts about Yu Ying that it takes quite a bit of parental commitment for their children to succeed at Yu Ying. If the parents at Miner are not willing to make the investment in their children's education with a single language track, what makes DCPS think that these same parents will make the commitment to see their kids flourish in Mandarin?

What makes me think they will succeed is because the parents who choose the Mandarin immersion will be the parents who make the commitment to see their kids flourish. Why would we assume that Yu Ying parents are willing to make an investment in their child's education but parent's who would put their child in an immersion program anywhere else wouldn't make that same commitment?

It appears you are assuming that the kids currently at Miner in the grades above pre-K and Kindergarten would be introduced to Mandarin. They would not. There is a large percentage of people who are currently inbound for Miner that do not send their kids to the school. There is a desire to reverse that trend and create a true neighborhood school.

Yu Ying accepts children up to the second grade with no Mandarin background. Why would Miner have to limit Mandarin to entering pre-K children only?

That's how DCPS starts immersion programs Pre-K, Kindergarten and I think First Grade. I don't know that they couldn't change that, but that has historically been how they roll out a immersion program.

Anonymous

07/29/2015 07:07 Subject: Ward 6 and Miner ES: Grassroots Movement for Dual Language (Mandarin) Program

What I mean by support is that children need more than just school to truly learn a language. Yes, I know that the prevailing wisdom on DCUM and maybe DC in general is that you can just dump your kid at your immersion school and your child comes out speaking perfect Spanish/French/Hebrew/Chinese. But the reality is that children really DON'T become truly fluent unless families REALLY try. That means hiring a babysitter/au pair/family member who speaks the target language to speak to the child. That means interacting with that particular community to better understand the culture and language. Every child I've ever spoken to without this sort of support does not really speak the language. Yes, they can understand and put some words together, but that's not fluency.

Are you also prepared for the fact that parents can't help kids with homework unless they speak mandarin? And yes, I realize that a good many subjects will also be taught in English, but Mandarin taught ones will be out of the reach of parents. And frankly, in a school with 20% proficiency, parents NEED to be a part of the picture. They can't feel that they're not able to help their kids.

Look I live near Miner, and I WANT THEM TO SUCCEED. I want Miner to be the amazing school it definitely can be. But I really don't think Mandarin immersion is the way to achieve that.

I really like this post, and wish this sort of thing were being said more on language immersion threads. I spent many years learning Mandarin, including several in China, and don't consider myself fluent. When I talk to Yu Ying kids around the Hill, I can usually tell which ones come from homes where an adult speaks the language. Even the babysitters and au pairs don't seem to pay off much, unless they're on hand to provide inputs year in and year out. Mandarin at Miner seems like a nutty way to fix the school. I'm sure the backers are well-intentioned, but it's hard to imagine the results being good.

Anonymous

07/29/2015 04:43 Subject: Ward 6 and Miner ES: Grassroots Movement for Dual Language (Mandarin) Program

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's all a beautiful argument, but there's no way to call it anything other than what it is: a way to white-wash the classrooms. And, I get it, that's fine. Would I rather you take your kid and $s out of DCPS and go private or charter? No. It's not an either/or proposition, it's just an us/them solution - and you're right, $s for the school is $s for the school, but it would be great if that meant an equal amount would be spent on each child, or better yet, MORE Would be spent on the kids that need more, which aren't the Mandarin-immersion kids.

I'm not sure what the solution is, because this is the same problem in every other public school EOTP: gotta have a hook or it's too hard to justify sending kiddo in. To that end, is it the best solution? Mandarin just seems like the LAST thing they should be using to differentiate. Spanish, French, literally any other language will make it easier for the lower-SES parent to access, so perhaps this is what makes it seem so unpalatable.

+1billion.

+ another billion. The initiative smacks of entitlement and is more than a little naive.

Anonymous

07/28/2015 23:17 Subject: Ward 6 and Miner ES: Grassroots Movement for Dual Language (Mandarin) Program

I hope some of the people who support Miner but not Mandarin immersion go to Joe Wheedon and Charles Allen and the ANC and the school principal and explain this. And offer to volunteer at the school or donate money or books or whatever else is needed.

Anonymous

07/28/2015 21:59 Subject: Ward 6 and Miner ES: Grassroots Movement for Dual Language (Mandarin) Program

warrenox wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

warrenox wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Stupid question- does it HAVE to be Mandarin?

I believe that DCPS will choose the language by what is available to them. DCPS knows that Yu Ying has extensive waiting lists for their Mandarin program.
It will not be Spanish because they already have immersion schools for Spanish.

I have had reservations about Mandarin as well, but after reading and understanding that Elementary kids can soak up Mandarin as easily as French or Spanish at that age, then my uneasiness was alleviated.

The benefits of a child being exposed to Mandarin at such a young age is that they are learning a Level 6 language (language difficulty ranking based on learning a language as a adult). If you learn a higher level language, it becomes immensely easier to learn a lower level language later in life. So if you wanted your kid to learn French or Spanish, he/she will have a easier time with it because of their exposure to Mandarin at the Elementary level.

I agree with everything you're saying, BUT, I don't see how people will be drawn to AND STAY IN a school with a 20% proficiency rate across the board when the language is Mandarin. Honestly it's hard enough to support the Spanish language in a place where so many kids have access to spanish speakers. I can't imagine how that would even be possible with Mandarin.

The language would start only at the earlier grades. It's impractical to start at every grade. So you would have Pre-K and Kindergarten as your beginning Mandarin students. As these kids move up through the school, the Mandarin education would move up with them until it reaches all grades at the school. I agree that you don't start introducing Mandarin to kids who haven't been exposed to it at the pre-K or Kindergarten level.

I don't understand what you mean by support? Does every child learning Spanish at school have Spanish speaking parents? I highly doubt that. Do you mean support groups that help parents? Here's one...

http://paassc.com/ - African American parent group for children learning Chinese

Anonymous

07/28/2015 21:25 Subject: Ward 6 and Miner ES: Grassroots Movement for Dual Language (Mandarin) Program

Anonymous wrote:It's all a beautiful argument, but there's no way to call it anything other than what it is: a way to white-wash the classrooms. And, I get it, that's fine. Would I rather you take your kid and $s out of DCPS and go private or charter? No. It's not an either/or proposition, it's just an us/them solution - and you're right, $s for the school is $s for the school, but it would be great if that meant an equal amount would be spent on each child, or better yet, MORE Would be spent on the kids that need more, which aren't the Mandarin-immersion kids.

I'm not sure what the solution is, because this is the same problem in every other public school EOTP: gotta have a hook or it's too hard to justify sending kiddo in. To that end, is it the best solution? Mandarin just seems like the LAST thing they should be using to differentiate. Spanish, French, literally any other language will make it easier for the lower-SES parent to access, so perhaps this is what makes it seem so unpalatable.

+1billion.

Anonymous

07/28/2015 16:57 Subject: Ward 6 and Miner ES: Grassroots Movement for Dual Language (Mandarin) Program

It's all a beautiful argument, but there's no way to call it anything other than what it is: a way to white-wash the classrooms. And, I get it, that's fine. Would I rather you take your kid and $s out of DCPS and go private or charter? No. It's not an either/or proposition, it's just an us/them solution - and you're right, $s for the school is $s for the school, but it would be great if that meant an equal amount would be spent on each child, or better yet, MORE Would be spent on the kids that need more, which aren't the Mandarin-immersion kids.

I'm not sure what the solution is, because this is the same problem in every other public school EOTP: gotta have a hook or it's too hard to justify sending kiddo in. To that end, is it the best solution? Mandarin just seems like the LAST thing they should be using to differentiate. Spanish, French, literally any other language will make it easier for the lower-SES parent to access, so perhaps this is what makes it seem so unpalatable.

Anonymous

07/28/2015 16:16 Subject: Re:Ward 6 and Miner ES: Grassroots Movement for Dual Language (Mandarin) Program

warrenox wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have read on other posts about Yu Ying that it takes quite a bit of parental commitment for their children to succeed at Yu Ying. If the parents at Miner are not willing to make the investment in their children's education with a single language track, what makes DCPS think that these same parents will make the commitment to see their kids flourish in Mandarin?

What makes me think they will succeed is because the parents who choose the Mandarin immersion will be the parents who make the commitment to see their kids flourish. Why would we assume that Yu Ying parents are willing to make an investment in their child's education but parent's who would put their child in an immersion program anywhere else wouldn't make that same commitment?

It appears you are assuming that the kids currently at Miner in the grades above pre-K and Kindergarten would be introduced to Mandarin. They would not. There is a large percentage of people who are currently inbound for Miner that do not send their kids to the school. There is a desire to reverse that trend and create a true neighborhood school.

Yu Ying accepts children up to the second grade with no Mandarin background. Why would Miner have to limit Mandarin to entering pre-K children only?

warrenox

07/28/2015 15:35 Subject: Ward 6 and Miner ES: Grassroots Movement for Dual Language (Mandarin) Program

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

warrenox wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Stupid question- does it HAVE to be Mandarin?

I believe that DCPS will choose the language by what is available to them. DCPS knows that Yu Ying has extensive waiting lists for their Mandarin program.
It will not be Spanish because they already have immersion schools for Spanish.

I have had reservations about Mandarin as well, but after reading and understanding that Elementary kids can soak up Mandarin as easily as French or Spanish at that age, then my uneasiness was alleviated.

The benefits of a child being exposed to Mandarin at such a young age is that they are learning a Level 6 language (language difficulty ranking based on learning a language as a adult). If you learn a higher level language, it becomes immensely easier to learn a lower level language later in life. So if you wanted your kid to learn French or Spanish, he/she will have a easier time with it because of their exposure to Mandarin at the Elementary level.

I agree with everything you're saying, BUT, I don't see how people will be drawn to AND STAY IN a school with a 20% proficiency rate across the board when the language is Mandarin. Honestly it's hard enough to support the Spanish language in a place where so many kids have access to spanish speakers. I can't imagine how that would even be possible with Mandarin.

Sorry for the duplicate post. I would also add that it makes no sense to say, oh we've got too many spanish programs as it is considering the waitlists for these spanish DCPS schools. Even the disaster that is Tyler has an almost 100 child waitlist for pk3.

I will not argue about the waitlist at Tyler and needing more Spanish language immersion schools. What I will say is that from discussions with DCPS and DC Immersion, they aren't focusing on another Spanish language immersion at this time. They see other needs and they have to compete with these charter schools for students. So insisting on a Spanish language immersion program at this point would slow down the momentum for change at Miner that many desperately want. Getting the potential inbound parents/children of Miner to consider going to Miner and not driving past the school to take their kids to the charter school further away or the school a child is attending because the parent's went the lottery route is the desired change.

warrenox

07/28/2015 15:20 Subject: Re:Ward 6 and Miner ES: Grassroots Movement for Dual Language (Mandarin) Program

Anonymous wrote:I have read on other posts about Yu Ying that it takes quite a bit of parental commitment for their children to succeed at Yu Ying. If the parents at Miner are not willing to make the investment in their children's education with a single language track, what makes DCPS think that these same parents will make the commitment to see their kids flourish in Mandarin?

What makes me think they will succeed is because the parents who choose the Mandarin immersion will be the parents who make the commitment to see their kids flourish. Why would we assume that Yu Ying parents are willing to make an investment in their child's education but parent's who would put their child in an immersion program anywhere else wouldn't make that same commitment?

It appears you are assuming that the kids currently at Miner in the grades above pre-K and Kindergarten would be introduced to Mandarin. They would not. There is a large percentage of people who are currently inbound for Miner that do not send their kids to the school. There is a desire to reverse that trend and create a true neighborhood school.

warrenox

07/28/2015 15:13 Subject: Ward 6 and Miner ES: Grassroots Movement for Dual Language (Mandarin) Program

Anonymous wrote:^ Interesting. Could you site any sources?

http://www.bhlingual.com/brain-benefits-bilingual-infographic/ (You can focus on the Bilingual Benefits in Children section).

http://www.languagestars.com/program-overview/programs/parents-and-tots/14-programs/curriculum/66-the-benefits-of-learning-language-young.html

"Exposing your child to a second language while young allows him or her to optimize his or her learning potential, helping to shape the brain at its most flexible stage. Young children are uniquely suited to learning a second language. Learning a second language at a young age is cognitively as easy as learning a first language."

While some parents worry that starting their toddler on a second language will interfere with developing English skills, the opposite is actually true. Children can differentiate between two languages within the first weeks of life. "Learning another language actually enhances a child's overall verbal development," says Roberta Michnick Golinkoff Ph.D., author of How Babies Talk.

Anonymous

07/28/2015 15:04 Subject: Re:Ward 6 and Miner ES: Grassroots Movement for Dual Language (Mandarin) Program

I have read on other posts about Yu Ying that it takes quite a bit of parental commitment for their children to succeed at Yu Ying. If the parents at Miner are not willing to make the investment in their children's education with a single language track, what makes DCPS think that these same parents will make the commitment to see their kids flourish in Mandarin?

warrenox

07/28/2015 15:00 Subject: Ward 6 and Miner ES: Grassroots Movement for Dual Language (Mandarin) Program

Anonymous wrote:

warrenox wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Stupid question- does it HAVE to be Mandarin?

I believe that DCPS will choose the language by what is available to them. DCPS knows that Yu Ying has extensive waiting lists for their Mandarin program.
It will not be Spanish because they already have immersion schools for Spanish.

I have had reservations about Mandarin as well, but after reading and understanding that Elementary kids can soak up Mandarin as easily as French or Spanish at that age, then my uneasiness was alleviated.

The benefits of a child being exposed to Mandarin at such a young age is that they are learning a Level 6 language (language difficulty ranking based on learning a language as a adult). If you learn a higher level language, it becomes immensely easier to learn a lower level language later in life. So if you wanted your kid to learn French or Spanish, he/she will have a easier time with it because of their exposure to Mandarin at the Elementary level.

I agree with everything you're saying, BUT, I don't see how people will be drawn to AND STAY IN a school with a 20% proficiency rate across the board when the language is Mandarin. Honestly it's hard enough to support the Spanish language in a place where so many kids have access to spanish speakers. I can't imagine how that would even be possible with Mandarin.

The language would start only at the earlier grades. It's impractical to start at every grade. So you would have Pre-K and Kindergarten as your beginning Mandarin students. As these kids move up through the school, the Mandarin education would move up with them until it reaches all grades at the school. I agree that you don't start introducing Mandarin to kids who haven't been exposed to it at the pre-K or Kindergarten level.

I don't understand what you mean by support? Does every child learning Spanish at school have Spanish speaking parents? I highly doubt that. Do you mean support groups that help parents? Here's one...

http://paassc.com/ - African American parent group for children learning Chinese