Anonymous
Post 05/06/2015 15:54     Subject: Why is Washington Latin MS now a Tier 2 school?
Not 15:19 but another happy Latin parent for all the reasons stated in that post. I find the hysteria over the scores to be overly dramatic. Latin (and Basis, or any other charter) is a lottery. All of the kids going to Deal are coming from solid elementaries. More and more so at Hardy as well. Not necessarily true at the charters-- u will get variation year to year. Also layer on the fact that when Latin began it was in upper NW, WOTP. Then it moved to 16th and then it moved eastwards again to its current location. My speculation is that for some parents at that time, Basis became more attractive-- due to location. Wonder if you compare scores to students primary residences over 2006-2014, what it would show.
Anonymous
Post 05/06/2015 15:23     Subject: Re:Why is Washington Latin MS now a Tier 2 school?
Anonymous wrote:Our child.is graduating from Latin this year after 8 years. Hardly a booster - if there were a right time to complain it would be now. We are incredibly satisfied. WL, especially HS, was a choice. We went in knowing it would be stronger in some things than others. It gave us what we were hoping for. Our child was known, appreciated, challlenged and inspired. Our child was able to participate and grow in sports ( not crowded out) and find great satisfaction in a few clubs/activities. I can count on both hands the teachers/administrators our child considers mentors. My child made wonderful friends for life - a bunch that are representative of all of our city, not just parts. Latin was/is awesome. Thanks Latin


So, does it bother you that Latin is now Tier 2? What do you think is happening?
Anonymous
Post 05/06/2015 15:19     Subject: Re:Why is Washington Latin MS now a Tier 2 school?
Our child.is graduating from Latin this year after 8 years. Hardly a booster - if there were a right time to complain it would be now. We are incredibly satisfied. WL, especially HS, was a choice. We went in knowing it would be stronger in some things than others. It gave us what we were hoping for. Our child was known, appreciated, challlenged and inspired. Our child was able to participate and grow in sports ( not crowded out) and find great satisfaction in a few clubs/activities. I can count on both hands the teachers/administrators our child considers mentors. My child made wonderful friends for life - a bunch that are representative of all of our city, not just parts. Latin was/is awesome. Thanks Latin
Anonymous
Post 05/06/2015 14:33     Subject: Why is Washington Latin MS now a Tier 2 school?
Anonymous wrote:I'll take Deal or Hardy over BASIS or Latin any day, thanks.


I wish Basis and Latin could mix the best of what each has - THAT would be an awesome school
Basis really does have piss poor English instruction although it is getting better
I also just wish there were more decent middle schools, because that is kind of where the rubber meets the road
if middle school is a wash, you cannot catch up in high school, whereas if ES was a wash, a good MS can fix that.....
Anonymous
Post 05/06/2015 14:27     Subject: Why is Washington Latin MS now a Tier 2 school?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Yeah, private schools have succeeded!


Prescreening your test takers is not succeeding in closing the achievement gap. Please.


Speaking of pre screening your test takers ... one big difference between Latin and the Tier 1 charter middle schools is that nearly every kid Latin enrolls in 5th grade is still enrolled at Latin in 8th grade. The most "successful" charters suffer a rate of attrition that, at a private school, would be shocking. Maybe the difference between Latin and the Tier 1 charters is simply that Latin keeps the bottom quarter of its class around - and the PCSB rating system doesn't give much credit for that.


yes but Latin did that from 2006 to 2010 as well, and it kept improving

what they are not impressed with is a failure to improve the level of education of the "bottom quarter of the class"
this is not about raw scores for the millionth time
Anonymous
Post 05/06/2015 14:21     Subject: Re:Why is Washington Latin MS now a Tier 2 school?
or rather I am one of the ones who are usually called the "nasty Basis poster" -
maybe now people will realize that there is more than one (not good)
or that some of us like me are not so nasty after all
THAT was nasty but remember you cannot prove it was a Basis parent
and I honestly believe a lot of the most nasty Basis posts don't come from Basis parents
and the Latin parents laughing at parents who are happy with Hardy or "dare" to compare it with Hardy are nasty too

so far we have been pretty civilized - can we stay there
Anonymous
Post 05/06/2015 14:17     Subject: Why is Washington Latin MS now a Tier 2 school?
I'll take Deal or Hardy over BASIS or Latin any day, thanks.
Anonymous
Post 05/06/2015 14:16     Subject: Why is Washington Latin MS now a Tier 2 school?
Anonymous wrote:Yeah, private schools have succeeded!


How do we know this? Private schools are not accountable, they never publish test scores. People pay because they hope, no evidence...
Anonymous
Post 05/06/2015 14:16     Subject: Why is Washington Latin MS now a Tier 2 school?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Basis opened in 2012 and attracted many high performing kids who would have otherwise gone to Latin. Could this account for some of the decline observed at Latin?


I have been wondering if it is not the Latin curriculum itself, time spent learning Latin (which I figured would help my kid's SATs) taking away from working towards advanced status in math and reading? I'm concerned because I have 2 kids I wish could go there, but while one is a star student the other is not. I need a school that can handle both types


just name me nasty Basis poster: since we have been competing with Washington Latin in Certamen (Latin) competitions, we have consistently beaten Washington Latin

I don't think it is emphasis on Latin (although they did tell us it was their way of introducing English grammar, which at Basis is introduced as English grammar - master it or you are fucked) that is hurting Latin

I would love to know what it is that is hurting Washington Latin


I think Latin's "problem" is precisely that they don't going around telling adolescents to learn the material "or you are fucked." That's why parents choose it and that's why students stay, but it is also why its scores are not as high as they would appear if you erased 10% of the lowest-scoring students each year.


Why are you rooting for hurting children's self esteem in their formative years? Just because student's are in the bottom 10% of the class does not make them worthless. Someone has to be in the bottom 10%. Your post doesn't even make sense. You are a very negative and mean person.

Oh - I see you are the "nasty BASIS poster."


I'm sorry, I am the one who is usually called the "nasty Basis poster", and the above is not my post

This whole thread is not about the bottom 10% of the class, and it is not about raw scores, and it is not about Basis.
It is about why students who start out scoring advanced coming in to Washington Latin end up scoring proficient. It is about a downward trajectory from the top, not so much an upward trajectory from the bottom - but that at least should be happening in the middle, and that is not happening either at Washington Latin.

Latin went up from 2006-2010, and then started going down and has not stopped

you do not have to worry about not having a star student at Latin - Latin will be fine for both your kids
Latin is definitely a lot more kind and forgiving than Basis - there are no comprehensive exams.........
there is always extra credit. There is always a way to catch up, and the environment is a lot cozier

I would not describe Basis the way it was described above, but I think it is a much better environment for advanced students in math and science who can really flourish there than for the bottom 10%,
and I would think twice before sending a kid who is academically behind to Basis just because of the amount of work.
But I don't think Basis took a lot of kids from Latin.
I think Basis and Latin cater to entirely different crowds - STEM and more liberal arts oriented less math oriented
About 15 kids left Latin for Basis. I think the rest ended up at Basis because they could not get in to Latin.

remember - year over year, they compare how a kid scores with how other kids (starting out with the same score) scored the next year - that is how they measure improvement. And Latin is not improving, it is doing the opposite.
so for example last year if you look, 65% of the white kids at Deal scored (in either math or English - don't remember) higher than they had the previous year - wherever they were to begin with - basic, proficient, advanced. Since the DC average is 50%, and Deal scores so high to begin with, that is pretty impressive. It is MGP. Latin's MGP is bad.

Not just for the bottom 10% - for all students
And the kids Washington Latin seems to really be failing is the advanced students

the growth measurement is not about raw scores, it is about improvement
Latin did get screwed on the measure of "high school readiness" which is measured by math, but that is 2.5 /100
growth on the other hand is 40/100
Latin's overall score went from 79 to 59 in 4 years, the cut off for Tier I is 60

to quote the person who explained this the best, understanding that almost ALL schools had a DC CAS surge in 2010

The decline does look bad, PP.

The percentage of kids scoring Advanced in reading and math at Latin MS increased dramatically in 2010, but has been on the decline ever since.

What caused the large increase in 2010? Was there a surge in middle class enrollment for the 2009-2010 school year? Is that the year Deal stopped taking kids zoned for Hardy? Is there another reason?

Anyway, since 2010, the number of kids scoring Advanced at Latin MS has been on the decline. This decline is not due to the departure of bright kids, though, at least not entirely. The median growth percentile has also been on the decline at Latin MS since 2010:

Year -- Reading MGP -- Math MGP
2011 -- 63.5% -- 52.2%
2012 -- 56.9% -- 44.8%
2013 -- 46.0% -- 46.0%
2014 -- 42.8% -- 39.8%

The MGP data point to a multi-year trend of Advanced kids falling behind at Latin MS. Why is this happening?


So the bottom 10% hardly plays into this at all. 10% is not enough to flip it.
Anonymous
Post 05/06/2015 13:28     Subject: Why is Washington Latin MS now a Tier 2 school?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Basis opened in 2012 and attracted many high performing kids who would have otherwise gone to Latin. Could this account for some of the decline observed at Latin?


I have been wondering if it is not the Latin curriculum itself, time spent learning Latin (which I figured would help my kid's SATs) taking away from working towards advanced status in math and reading? I'm concerned because I have 2 kids I wish could go there, but while one is a star student the other is not. I need a school that can handle both types


just name me nasty Basis poster: since we have been competing with Washington Latin in Certamen (Latin) competitions, we have consistently beaten Washington Latin

I don't think it is emphasis on Latin (although they did tell us it was their way of introducing English grammar, which at Basis is introduced as English grammar - master it or you are fucked) that is hurting Latin

I would love to know what it is that is hurting Washington Latin


You are the "nasty BASIS poster." I and other BASIS parents have asked you to stop. This thread is about Latin - not what BASIS is doing. I think Latin is doing well on educating the whole child. BASIS pushes kids out - and the administration is about the dollars. Next you will be raving about the middle school science team which is composed of all 8th graders with no one else being allowed to compete.

BASIS parent who does science projects at home because of the lack of experiments in the classroom.


Latin has a lab. BASIS does not have a lab even in high school. The high school program is catering to a few students' interests -- not everyone wants to major in history, education or government.
Anonymous
Post 05/06/2015 13:23     Subject: Why is Washington Latin MS now a Tier 2 school?
Anonymous wrote:I'm a Washington Latin middle school parent and I know it sounds irrational,but I blame myself a bit for the drop. I suspect previous parents may have been stricter with their kids than current parents. Maybe I'm thinking that because at least I can do something about the problem if I have some responsibility in it. If it's all the school's fault, what can I possibly do to improve things? I'm not an expert in running a school. instead, I am using this information to really check myself as a parent. I think I've allowed far too much freedom with letting my kid watch Minecraft videos on YouTube. I suppose I could be helped in this if the school assigned more homework, but really, I am the parent and it is ultimately my responsibility to raise my kid, not the school's.

I had always thought that homework was a waste of time for kids, but considering this drop, I'm really not so sure anymore. Perhaps additional differentiation would help-- but OTOH, this lack of differentiation isn't new to Washington Latin and in the past, advanced kids still did well.

I can't imagine that it is the new school building? Maybe with such nice facilities, the school community is resting on its laurels-- figuring our great kids will stay great without putting in the work?

I wish I knew the answer . . . it's a wake up call.


I am not a Washington Latin parent, but believe me you are not alone on the massive guilt about on line activity - is minecraft social because he is skyping and/or playing with his friends, he is also doing some programming....? We drew a hard line on TV but this is something I have been thinking about more and more as I read the DCI threads

The reason I want someone with kids already there to ask the question ("do my dirty work" as the other poster so nicely put it) is because since you all already have a vested interest I think they will take you more seriously. If you have a list serve, use it, and just ask them to explain why advanced kids seem to be falling behind, why the trajectory is going in the wrong direction.

You are right that you are only a parent, but it is something the school is doing wrong, or not doing right, and I'm sure they are bothered by losing the Tier I status but the writing was on the wall last year. Just knowing that they are on it and are trying to fix it (not resting on their laurels) would be reassuring - maybe they do need differentiation now because the population has changed so much in the last 4 years? They need to figure out why this is happening and reverse the trend. They have developed an amazing school I am sure they are capable of solving this, but it is important.

The thing is if you type in the other Tier I schools, and you type in Deal to that focus thing, you see a HUGE difference. Type in Basis as well. They did not do so well on growth either, but they are new. I think it is worth it for the sake of your advanced kids to explore it - from 2006/7-2010 they were going up, and in the last 4 years they have been going down. I don't think the DC CAS is the be all and end all I just think the other schools managed to pull it off, and Latin MS was pulling it off for a long time. They are a great school and they will be able to figure it out, but it might help them if they knew that parents are aware of the full implications of the reason behind the drop from Tier I to Tier 2 - I started this thread, and I originally thought it was because the charter school scoring was unfair, that schools that start to do really well can't improve that much anymore, which was pretty much the answer that people on this thread originally gave. So we have all learned a lot here I think. And I think they should know that you know - if that makes sense.

PS Feeling guilty about whatever you allow or don't as a parent is a perpetual state.......... Good luck!
Hope to join you all in two years.

I wish I knew the answer . . . it's a wake up call.
Anonymous
Post 05/06/2015 11:45     Subject: Why is Washington Latin MS now a Tier 2 school?
I'm a Washington Latin middle school parent and I know it sounds irrational,but I blame myself a bit for the drop. I suspect previous parents may have been stricter with their kids than current parents. Maybe I'm thinking that because at least I can do something about the problem if I have some responsibility in it. If it's all the school's fault, what can I possibly do to improve things? I'm not an expert in running a school. instead, I am using this information to really check myself as a parent. I think I've allowed far too much freedom with letting my kid watch Minecraft videos on YouTube. I suppose I could be helped in this if the school assigned more homework, but really, I am the parent and it is ultimately my responsibility to raise my kid, not the school's.

I had always thought that homework was a waste of time for kids, but considering this drop, I'm really not so sure anymore. Perhaps additional differentiation would help-- but OTOH, this lack of differentiation isn't new to Washington Latin and in the past, advanced kids still did well.

I can't imagine that it is the new school building? Maybe with such nice facilities, the school community is resting on its laurels-- figuring our great kids will stay great without putting in the work?

I wish I knew the answer . . . it's a wake up call.
Anonymous
Post 05/06/2015 10:37     Subject: Re:Why is Washington Latin MS now a Tier 2 school?


For the parents who are not blowing this off, what do you think the explanation is?
And will you please ask the school for us?
It is kind of harder for us to ask because
a) we probably will never get in and
b) if we do, we will always be the ones who asked





That's rich. You don't want to be branded as 'the one who asked' IF your kid gets in at soem point in the future ... but you want current parents to do that to themselves?

FWIW I think these are totally fair questions and ones that the Administration at Latin should be willing to discuss. But not fair to ask others to do your dirty work.

Anonymous
Post 05/06/2015 10:32     Subject: Re:Why is Washington Latin MS now a Tier 2 school?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Dramatic much? Catastrophic decline? Hardly.


The decline does look bad, PP.

The percentage of kids scoring Advanced in reading and math at Latin MS increased dramatically in 2010, but has been on the decline ever since.

What caused the large increase in 2010? Was there a surge in middle class enrollment for the 2009-2010 school year? Is that the year Deal stopped taking kids zoned for Hardy? Is there another reason?

Anyway, since 2010, the number of kids scoring Advanced at Latin MS has been on the decline. This decline is not due to the departure of bright kids, though, at least not entirely. The median growth percentile has also been on the decline at Latin MS since 2010:

Year -- Reading MGP -- Math MGP
2011 -- 63.5% -- 52.2%
2012 -- 56.9% -- 44.8%
2013 -- 46.0% -- 46.0%
2014 -- 42.8% -- 39.8%

The MGP data point to a multi-year trend of Advanced kids falling behind at Latin MS. Why is this happening?



What this chart (which compare the kids in the city who all had the same score the prior year, and the actual scores show show) is that for some reason the advanced kids at Washington Latin become less and less likely to score advanced the longer they stay there.

The city average is 50, so 39.8 is pretty bad.

The math issue (preparedness for high school) is only worth 2 points.

The progress over time is worth 40/100 points to the Charter Board, and Deal makes this progress every year.

In 2014, 65% of Deal's white kids scored higher in math than kids in other schools that had their same scores the year before. If they were a charter, they would be rocking it.

This is not "armchair analysis of statistics" and it is not foolish to look at -
this is the website:

http://focusdc.org/charter-facts -

I suggest everyone look at the school they are at, and Washington Latin, and any other MS they are interested in - charter or public, through this website because it honestly is the best one I have found - it goes all the way back to when the school started, at least for Latin, and you can break it down by any sub group.

Something definitely happened everywhere in 2010, there was a huge spike in DC CAS scores even at Deal but the graph kind of tells it all with Washington Latin MS. Just compare it to the Deal graph, or the Latin HS graph.

Also if you click on any line, it will give you the raw numbers
lest we forget what we are actually talking about, here is a snapshot of Washington Latin

Here is what you get for 2007, 2010, and 2014

2007 English - all test takers 171
Proficient and Advanced 77%
Proficient 54%
Advanced 23%

2010 English - all test takers 299
Proficient and Advanced 83%
Proficient 44%
Advanced 39%

2014 English - all test takers 362
Proficient and Advanced 79%
Proficient 57 %
Advanced 22%

so they basically went back to 2007

2007 Math - all test takers 171
Proficient and Advanced 73%
Proficient 48%
Advanced 25%

2010 Math - all test takers 299
Proficient and Advanced 81 %
Proficient 44%
Advanced 39%

2014 Math - all test takers 362
Proficient and Advanced 77%
Proficient 46%
Advanced 31%

that is not so bad

20O7 English - white students
Proficient and Advanced 94%
Proficient 54% (34/171)
Advanced 40% (26/171)

2010 English - white students
Proficient and Advanced 93%
Proficient 32% (39/299)
Advanced 61% (75/299)

2014 English - white students
Proficient and Advanced 96%
Proficient 60% (90/151)
Advanced 36% (55/151)

advanced here is lower than 2007

2007 Math - white students
Proficient and Advanced 97%
Proficient 51% (32/64)
Advanced 46% (30/64)

2010 Math - white students
Proficient and Advanced 98%
Proficient 35% (43/122)
Advanced 63% (77/122)

again - in 2010 they rocked the CAS - so did Deal, so did a lot of schools. Deal held on to its gains, Latin lost them.

2014 Math - white students
Proficient and Advanced 91%
Proficient 36% (55/151)
Advanced 54% (82/151)


The high school has never had the DC CAS scores that the MS at Washington Latin had, and given that the MS scores are dropping, that may not change now in the high school as much as everyone thinks. What the HS has done is consistently improve to the point where all the kids are willing to stay, but I wonder whether the kids are now coming into the HS having been shortchanged somehow...

I don't think I have seen an adequate explanation on this thread yet for why this has happened

saying "we have a long wait list so it doesn't matter" seems kind of wrong

the numbers show a school in decline, which is not what the kids feel at all - I get that there is a huge disconnect
there will never be another DC CAS, so we don't know if the numbers would have continued to fall, but this is not about the bottom part of the class - I have been focusing on the advanced kids, and why their scores are declining the longer they stay at Washington Latin MS because that is the exact opposite of what should be happening, and the opposite of what is happening at all the Tier I schools - more kids are becoming advanced, not fewer.

Latin is a good enough school so they should not have to teach to the test, Deal and Basis don't either.
Those are the top 3 scorers on the DC CAS the last two years.
This is not about raw scores, it is about the direction, and I am baffled.
Go ahead, tell me just not to apply, to save the spot for someone who really wants it.

I want one of my kids to get into Latin, but I also want to understand why this has happened and what it means.

And why, when it must have been obvious to the school that they were slipping and risking losing their Tier I status because two years ago they only made Tier I by .2 or .3, they either deliberately decided to do nothing or could do nothing to keep from falling from 60.2 to 59. I am pretty sure it matters to them.

The farther back you go the more dramatic the drop is -
in 4 years they dropped from 79% to 59%

I think the kids who are coming in (or at least the pool) are better prepared, more willing to learn, than the ones 4 years ago - the FARMS rate has dropped, everything except these scores is fantastic. But the MGP measures the kids against kids like them who had their DC CAS scores the previous year, and the raw scores both point to the fact that advanced kids are coming to Latin and losing their ability to score advanced. And that proficient kids are not becoming advanced. This is what worries me. Profoundly.

We are never going to have another DC CAS, but as you can see from both the MGP and the scores,
there is something going on, and it is not the unfairness of the measurements, and it is not nothing.

So for those of us who don't have kids there
is there not enough differentiation
is there any tracking
are there any separate/more advanced classes for some of the kids in the MS?

For the parents who are not blowing this off, what do you think the explanation is?
And will you please ask the school for us?
It is kind of harder for us to ask because
a) we probably will never get in and
b) if we do, we will always be the ones who asked

but this is not typical for any charter school - this going in the wrong direction - and certainly not one that is so well thought of, hard to get into, and is hardly at this point an experiment having been around for so many years.

Anonymous
Post 05/06/2015 10:30     Subject: Why is Washington Latin MS now a Tier 2 school?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Basis opened in 2012 and attracted many high performing kids who would have otherwise gone to Latin. Could this account for some of the decline observed at Latin?


I have been wondering if it is not the Latin curriculum itself, time spent learning Latin (which I figured would help my kid's SATs) taking away from working towards advanced status in math and reading? I'm concerned because I have 2 kids I wish could go there, but while one is a star student the other is not. I need a school that can handle both types


just name me nasty Basis poster: since we have been competing with Washington Latin in Certamen (Latin) competitions, we have consistently beaten Washington Latin

I don't think it is emphasis on Latin (although they did tell us it was their way of introducing English grammar, which at Basis is introduced as English grammar - master it or you are fucked) that is hurting Latin

I would love to know what it is that is hurting Washington Latin


I think Latin's "problem" is precisely that they don't going around telling adolescents to learn the material "or you are fucked." That's why parents choose it and that's why students stay, but it is also why its scores are not as high as they would appear if you erased 10% of the lowest-scoring students each year.


Why are you rooting for hurting children's self esteem in their formative years? Just because student's are in the bottom 10% of the class does not make them worthless. Someone has to be in the bottom 10%. Your post doesn't even make sense. You are a very negative and mean person.

Oh - I see you are the "nasty BASIS poster."