Anonymous
Post 02/27/2015 20:05     Subject: How to approach a friend in total denial
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:OP, I'm a PP from page 2 who dealt with family denial that ended in suicide much like your friend's dd. You are on the right track with how you support the family, and god bless you for it. It sounds like your friend could use some distance to see the situation clearly. if she knows this person also, maybe just mentioning how you have been thinking about them lately and wondering if her son is on that path will be a good conversation starter. If she kneejerks "NO that is NOT my son how could you say that!!!" vs if she says "yeah I've been worried about that too, nothing we do seems to be working"--then you will know how much denial she really is in.

Ignore the haters here. they have never dealt with mental illness or suicide and it's obvious.

have you read anything OP said...and by the way OP's friend has a son.Geez


I read when she said this:

We both know someone who a few years ago was in a similiar situation but with a daughter. The mom just refused to see and acknowledge how bad it was, maybe living with it every day she just got used to that as being her new norm.

People were very hushed about it because they saw the wall she put up. Sadly the D committed suicide about a year later, no one thought it was "that bad" and needless to say it has devastated that entire family. I keep thinking about them, maybe someone close to them SHOULD have spoken up and said something, urged them to do more, etc........


Have YOU read what she's written? About the way she supports the family, the healthy son, and sees him as the mom does not? Have YOU dealt with the mental illness and suicide of a loved one? Have YOU had to look at yourself in the mirror afterwards and remember all the times you could have said something, but didn't?

I'm betting no by your judgmental stone-throwing. People who have been there generally have more empathy. You have contributed nothing, no experience, no insight, just negativity, and poorly-informed negativity at that. So sit down, shut the fuck up, and let people who have been there help each other.


Not everyone who has "been there" agrees with you. I'm a pp whose sister is severely mentally ill, multiple suicide attempts, etc. I still think you're wrong. People have raised multiple serious questions about what, exactly, the OP thinks her friend should do in response to this "talking to," and OP has offered not single substantive response. Not only is she ignorant of the realities of dealing with mental illness, but she's apparently completely unwilling to acknowledge her ignorance, which makes her just about the last person who should approach her friend in this situation.
Anonymous
Post 02/27/2015 19:47     Subject: How to approach a friend in total denial
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:OP, I'm a PP from page 2 who dealt with family denial that ended in suicide much like your friend's dd. You are on the right track with how you support the family, and god bless you for it. It sounds like your friend could use some distance to see the situation clearly. if she knows this person also, maybe just mentioning how you have been thinking about them lately and wondering if her son is on that path will be a good conversation starter. If she kneejerks "NO that is NOT my son how could you say that!!!" vs if she says "yeah I've been worried about that too, nothing we do seems to be working"--then you will know how much denial she really is in.

Ignore the haters here. they have never dealt with mental illness or suicide and it's obvious.

have you read anything OP said...and by the way OP's friend has a son.Geez


I read when she said this:

We both know someone who a few years ago was in a similiar situation but with a daughter. The mom just refused to see and acknowledge how bad it was, maybe living with it every day she just got used to that as being her new norm.

People were very hushed about it because they saw the wall she put up. Sadly the D committed suicide about a year later, no one thought it was "that bad" and needless to say it has devastated that entire family. I keep thinking about them, maybe someone close to them SHOULD have spoken up and said something, urged them to do more, etc........


Have YOU read what she's written? About the way she supports the family, the healthy son, and sees him as the mom does not? Have YOU dealt with the mental illness and suicide of a loved one? Have YOU had to look at yourself in the mirror afterwards and remember all the times you could have said something, but didn't?

I'm betting no by your judgmental stone-throwing. People who have been there generally have more empathy. You have contributed nothing, no experience, no insight, just negativity, and poorly-informed negativity at that. [b]So sit down, shut the fuck up, and let people who have been there help each other.
[/


Love you and thanks.

Hush
You are not a doc and neither is OP
And OP's friend haspre corriencebu. This than OP
so you maybe Ned to realize that .
She had been given Great advice about how to support her friend but she seems bound and determined to play the denial card despite saying all the things friend and her family have done.
So OP needs to take a seat , several seats.
Anonymous
Post 02/27/2015 17:53     Subject: How to approach a friend in total denial
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:OP, I'm a PP from page 2 who dealt with family denial that ended in suicide much like your friend's dd. You are on the right track with how you support the family, and god bless you for it. It sounds like your friend could use some distance to see the situation clearly. if she knows this person also, maybe just mentioning how you have been thinking about them lately and wondering if her son is on that path will be a good conversation starter. If she kneejerks "NO that is NOT my son how could you say that!!!" vs if she says "yeah I've been worried about that too, nothing we do seems to be working"--then you will know how much denial she really is in.

Ignore the haters here. they have never dealt with mental illness or suicide and it's obvious.

have you read anything OP said...and by the way OP's friend has a son.Geez


I read when she said this:

We both know someone who a few years ago was in a similiar situation but with a daughter. The mom just refused to see and acknowledge how bad it was, maybe living with it every day she just got used to that as being her new norm.

People were very hushed about it because they saw the wall she put up. Sadly the D committed suicide about a year later, no one thought it was "that bad" and needless to say it has devastated that entire family. I keep thinking about them, maybe someone close to them SHOULD have spoken up and said something, urged them to do more, etc........


Have YOU read what she's written? About the way she supports the family, the healthy son, and sees him as the mom does not? Have YOU dealt with the mental illness and suicide of a loved one? Have YOU had to look at yourself in the mirror afterwards and remember all the times you could have said something, but didn't?

I'm betting no by your judgmental stone-throwing. People who have been there generally have more empathy. You have contributed nothing, no experience, no insight, just negativity, and poorly-informed negativity at that. So sit down, shut the fuck up, and let people who have been there help each other.


Love you and thanks.
Anonymous
Post 02/27/2015 17:02     Subject: How to approach a friend in total denial
16:02 here. 16:50, you only think that because YOU have thought about it. That is what denial means. My family member had previous attempts under her belt, and it was STILL not on the radar of those closest to her. OPknows her friend better than we do and is in a better position to judge.
Anonymous
Post 02/27/2015 16:50     Subject: Re:How to approach a friend in total denial
12:41 here. I really, really doubt OP's friend hasn't thought about the idea that her DS may commit suicide.

I don't see signs of it now in my DS, but if he did I wouldn't be surprised. I once I had to fly up to his college and wait with him two days in the ER while they found a bed in a psych ward when he was having suicidal ideation.

I have already thought hard about the suicide angle and long ago I made my peace that this may eventually be the outcome. On the other hand, I am not resigned to it and try to do the best I can each day to connect with him and make him laugh or get him talking about a news item.

Much thanks to whomever started the "What Color is this Dress" thread (I see white and gold, DS sees black and blue) and whoever it was posted that Leonard Nimoy had died--called DS up immediately with the news.
Anonymous
Post 02/27/2015 16:41     Subject: How to approach a friend in total denial
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:OP here I have only discussed residential treatment with her because SHE HAS BROUGHT IT UP SEVERAL TIMES as a possibility if these last meds do not work (which so far they are not). She acknowledged things are getting so bad for the family that they are really leaning in that direction.

Then if one little thing good happens she immediately thinks things are getting better (which I understand her desperate need for optimism) but then within a few days it goes back to how its been.

I really want to say stop kidding yourself this is a lifelong affliction which hopefully can be managed with the proper meds/therapy but I feel she has still not accepted that end of it.

I am taking her next week on a desperately needed 2 day spa trip as a mental break from her torment. If she wants to talk about then we will but I am not going to bring it up, I think she needs a major break from thinking, breathing and living this.

OP, I truly hope that you are just coming off wrong in your posts, but really mean well in real life. Otherwise, who the freak are you to tell a suffering parent in the actual situation how to feel???
It's not as if they are not doing anything, they seem to be trying everything. STOP TRYING TO REGULATE HER HOPES AND FEELINGS!
That is not your place.


Reminds me so much of my own sister who dealt with this about 9 years ago with her son (22 at the time). It was really devastating for her whole family and us to watch but not be able to do anything about. Only when he tried to hurt himself was he admitted. Best thing that could have happened to their family. Your friend is doing her son no favors to allow him to sit and rot away in his room. Sorry to be so crude but that is it. He will not get better sitting there. He needs intense therapy 24/7. Can they afford it? It is outrageously expensive but some insurance companies like Oxford can help out (they did with my sister).

Lots of parents including my own sister think they can fix their kid. They can't. It just does not work that way. It is a complicated and an immense energy draining illness that ideally is overseen by professionals trained to deal with it, not parents who are emotionally over involved. That is my angle having lived through it with my nephew. The healing for their family only began once he left the house.

Did you not read the OP where OP said that they have tried various medications, therapies, and are considering in patient treatments. However, as numerous posters have pointed out you cannot just put an adult in a treatment facility against their will. Nowhere did OP say they are just letting him sit around not
that he is mentally ill. Do you people know anything about the mental health system?


PP, how is your nephew now, nine years later?
Anonymous
Post 02/27/2015 16:02     Subject: How to approach a friend in total denial
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:OP, I'm a PP from page 2 who dealt with family denial that ended in suicide much like your friend's dd. You are on the right track with how you support the family, and god bless you for it. It sounds like your friend could use some distance to see the situation clearly. if she knows this person also, maybe just mentioning how you have been thinking about them lately and wondering if her son is on that path will be a good conversation starter. If she kneejerks "NO that is NOT my son how could you say that!!!" vs if she says "yeah I've been worried about that too, nothing we do seems to be working"--then you will know how much denial she really is in.

Ignore the haters here. they have never dealt with mental illness or suicide and it's obvious.

have you read anything OP said...and by the way OP's friend has a son.Geez


I read when she said this:

We both know someone who a few years ago was in a similiar situation but with a daughter. The mom just refused to see and acknowledge how bad it was, maybe living with it every day she just got used to that as being her new norm.

People were very hushed about it because they saw the wall she put up. Sadly the D committed suicide about a year later, no one thought it was "that bad" and needless to say it has devastated that entire family. I keep thinking about them, maybe someone close to them SHOULD have spoken up and said something, urged them to do more, etc........


Have YOU read what she's written? About the way she supports the family, the healthy son, and sees him as the mom does not? Have YOU dealt with the mental illness and suicide of a loved one? Have YOU had to look at yourself in the mirror afterwards and remember all the times you could have said something, but didn't?

I'm betting no by your judgmental stone-throwing. People who have been there generally have more empathy. You have contributed nothing, no experience, no insight, just negativity, and poorly-informed negativity at that. So sit down, shut the fuck up, and let people who have been there help each other.
Anonymous
Post 02/27/2015 15:59     Subject: How to approach a friend in total denial
I don't think there are haters here. It's clear that many of us who are concerned that OP does not understand how limited options are for mental health care have seen mental illness pretty close up. I really feel for the family and I really feel for the son with mental illness. He is suffering the most. I think it's fine to ask questions OP and try to understand your friend's position better. Have that be your goal, rather than wanting to change what she is doing. But never ask a mother to give up on her child.
Anonymous
Post 02/27/2015 15:38     Subject: How to approach a friend in total denial
Anonymous wrote:OP, I'm a PP from page 2 who dealt with family denial that ended in suicide much like your friend's dd. You are on the right track with how you support the family, and god bless you for it. It sounds like your friend could use some distance to see the situation clearly. if she knows this person also, maybe just mentioning how you have been thinking about them lately and wondering if her son is on that path will be a good conversation starter. If she kneejerks "NO that is NOT my son how could you say that!!!" vs if she says "yeah I've been worried about that too, nothing we do seems to be working"--then you will know how much denial she really is in.

Ignore the haters here. they have never dealt with mental illness or suicide and it's obvious.

have you read anything OP said...and by the way OP's friend has a son.Geez
Anonymous
Post 02/27/2015 15:08     Subject: How to approach a friend in total denial
OP, I'm a PP from page 2 who dealt with family denial that ended in suicide much like your friend's dd. You are on the right track with how you support the family, and god bless you for it. It sounds like your friend could use some distance to see the situation clearly. if she knows this person also, maybe just mentioning how you have been thinking about them lately and wondering if her son is on that path will be a good conversation starter. If she kneejerks "NO that is NOT my son how could you say that!!!" vs if she says "yeah I've been worried about that too, nothing we do seems to be working"--then you will know how much denial she really is in.

Ignore the haters here. they have never dealt with mental illness or suicide and it's obvious.
Anonymous
Post 02/27/2015 14:14     Subject: How to approach a friend in total denial
OP, your posts refer repeatedly to "saying something" to your friend. Can you take a crack at what that "something" would be? Here are some things that I venture to say would NOT be helpful:

"I think you are being too optimistic to think that the right medication can help your son, his affliction is lifelong and he will never be fixed."

"Your older son's mental health problems are really harming your younger child. You should think about getting your older son out of the house somehow." [Your friend responds that they can't send him to a residential program without his consent and he wont' consent.] "Well then what about just kicking him out into the street?"

On the other hand, it might be helpful if you said:

"You guys are dealing with so much right now. I'd love to help out however I can. I will bring you dinner on Saturday night unless you tell me not to. Also, is there anything I can do to help you research doctors or insurance issues or that residential program you mentioned the other week?"

"Would [younger son] would like to come to [X event] with us next week?"

"Would you like to meet for lunch on Tuesday?"
Anonymous
Post 02/27/2015 13:58     Subject: Re:How to approach a friend in total denial
Anonymous wrote:OP friend's son is like mine but my DS is not nearly as bad. He had a traumatizing experience at college (roommate bullied him relentlessly) in addition to other problems, came home. Before this he did part of a summer at a therapeutic place ($50,000, some insurance re-imbursement). Took a job for a while, quit. Went to CC a semester, failed. Sat at home for about two years.

What has NOT helped. DH saying repeatedly, "Let's face it he is a hopeless case--he needs years of therapy."

First off, he won't go to therapy and he is over 18 so I can't make him. He does see a medicating psychiatrist. I have looked into places as no doubt OP has. But, apart from the important fact that DS won't even do the intake interview, I really think the vast majority of them will not be helpful.

A place like Menninger may be successful at getting someone out of a deep depression but then what? I'd spend the money if I thought it would put him firmly on a positive, upward path, but I know the chances are against this and it is all hypothetical if he is not willing to go in the first place.

What has helped. Me keeping an optimistic outlook and giving him lots of encouragement. He started college locally this semester and so far it is looking okay. Far from perfect, but he is turning in work and attending classes.

OP appears to think her friend is in denial because she won't admit her DS is a hopeless case a la DH. OP thinks she would be doing her friend a favor by giving her a reality check on her denial. If someone called me on how I am handling the situation I'd say what I've said above, in . If they then pressed that I was in denial, I'd say I am doing the best I can and keeping positive allows me to continue giving him encouragement, the best and only hope he and I have.

Bingo -- what da fug does OP want her friend to do -- admit that the son is a 'hopeless case'? What if she does -- how is that going to help and how is that providing a solution or a process for getting him help in whatever way might be helpful to anyone in this situation. If she is not a board certified psychiatrist then all she can lend is her shoulder to lean on, keep her non-expert advice to herself. Sounds to me like the friend and her family is doing the best they can-- their son is mentally ill -- that takes a toll on the family -- NO SHIT!
Anonymous
Post 02/27/2015 13:53     Subject: How to approach a friend in total denial
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:OP here I have only discussed residential treatment with her because SHE HAS BROUGHT IT UP SEVERAL TIMES as a possibility if these last meds do not work (which so far they are not). She acknowledged things are getting so bad for the family that they are really leaning in that direction.

Then if one little thing good happens she immediately thinks things are getting better (which I understand her desperate need for optimism) but then within a few days it goes back to how its been.

I really want to say stop kidding yourself this is a lifelong affliction which hopefully can be managed with the proper meds/therapy but I feel she has still not accepted that end of it.

I am taking her next week on a desperately needed 2 day spa trip as a mental break from her torment. If she wants to talk about then we will but I am not going to bring it up, I think she needs a major break from thinking, breathing and living this.

OP, I truly hope that you are just coming off wrong in your posts, but really mean well in real life. Otherwise, who the freak are you to tell a suffering parent in the actual situation how to feel???
It's not as if they are not doing anything, they seem to be trying everything. STOP TRYING TO REGULATE HER HOPES AND FEELINGS!
That is not your place.


Reminds me so much of my own sister who dealt with this about 9 years ago with her son (22 at the time). It was really devastating for her whole family and us to watch but not be able to do anything about. Only when he tried to hurt himself was he admitted. Best thing that could have happened to their family. Your friend is doing her son no favors to allow him to sit and rot away in his room. Sorry to be so crude but that is it. He will not get better sitting there. He needs intense therapy 24/7. Can they afford it? It is outrageously expensive but some insurance companies like Oxford can help out (they did with my sister).

Lots of parents including my own sister think they can fix their kid. They can't. It just does not work that way. It is a complicated and an immense energy draining illness that ideally is overseen by professionals trained to deal with it, not parents who are emotionally over involved. That is my angle having lived through it with my nephew. The healing for their family only began once he left the house.

Did you not read the OP where OP said that they have tried various medications, therapies, and are considering in patient treatments. However, as numerous posters have pointed out you cannot just put an adult in a treatment facility against their will. Nowhere did OP say they are just letting him sit around not acknowleding that he is mentally ill. Do you people know anything about the mental health system?
Anonymous
Post 02/27/2015 12:41     Subject: Re:How to approach a friend in total denial
OP friend's son is like mine but my DS is not nearly as bad. He had a traumatizing experience at college (roommate bullied him relentlessly) in addition to other problems, came home. Before this he did part of a summer at a therapeutic place ($50,000, some insurance re-imbursement). Took a job for a while, quit. Went to CC a semester, failed. Sat at home for about two years.

What has NOT helped. DH saying repeatedly, "Let's face it he is a hopeless case--he needs years of therapy."

First off, he won't go to therapy and he is over 18 so I can't make him. He does see a medicating psychiatrist. I have looked into places as no doubt OP has. But, apart from the important fact that DS won't even do the intake interview, I really think the vast majority of them will not be helpful.

A place like Menninger may be successful at getting someone out of a deep depression but then what? I'd spend the money if I thought it would put him firmly on a positive, upward path, but I know the chances are against this and it is all hypothetical if he is not willing to go in the first place.

What has helped. Me keeping an optimistic outlook and giving him lots of encouragement. He started college locally this semester and so far it is looking okay. Far from perfect, but he is turning in work and attending classes.

OP appears to think her friend is in denial because she won't admit her DS is a hopeless case a la DH. OP thinks she would be doing her friend a favor by giving her a reality check on her denial. If someone called me on how I am handling the situation I'd say what I've said above, in . If they then pressed that I was in denial, I'd say I am doing the best I can and keeping positive allows me to continue giving him encouragement, the best and only hope he and I have.
Anonymous
Post 02/27/2015 11:52     Subject: How to approach a friend in total denial
There are good day programs out there. A family member attended one in a different city run by Lutheran Social Services and it was wonderful. Sadly, the republican governor in that state cut funding to social programs and the program didn't get a grant so the program is no longer running.