Anonymous wrote:I think the concept of 'nice' vacations is one of those things that must separate the working class from the middle class, or something, because my husband (lawyer dad, although country lawyer, so not "jet off to Europe" rich) always talks about all these great week-long vacations to disney and maine and wherever. My dad was a firefighter and we visited family in WV for a 4 day weekend, did a 4 day weekend (by car) to Ohio to visit some museum, and did DC a couple of times--and yes, Luray Caverns and Baltimore! RARELY stayed in a hotel. I don't feel like I missed much, but I do hate to travel--don't find it relaxing at all. I can afford nicer trips, but the idea of dropping 5K on a trip that's going to exhaust me seems dumb. Feel like my kid would get a lot more out of playing in the mud with cousins back home than standing in line at an amusement park...

+1

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm in the same exact financial situation as OP, percentage-wise, and it's really really hard to just "accept and move on" when you slide backwards -- hard.

I know I need to do just that, accept, in order to be mentally healthy and not be bitter for the rest of my life (I'm 47 so things aren't going to really shoot back 'up' for me in the time I have left). I am beyond grateful that for the time being, I have my good health and so does DS. I try to focus on that.


As someone who grew up happy and lower middle class, never ever knowing the "finer" things in life until her late 20s, I will say this:

I found that it was much, MUCH easier to just never know about the things that come along with a high professional income in the first place, than to have enjoyed those things and have them yanked away from you abruptly. I'm serious.

What's more, as an educated and supposedly enlightened woman who is surrounded by educated and enlightened peers, you can never, ever breathe word of these feelings of loss to your enlightened friends. One, because they will call you shallow for mourning the loss of "stuff." Two, because in many or all cases, they themselves are likely still living the good life themselves and can't relate (although they may mouth empathetic words if they are indeed good and loyal friends. Then they go to their personal trainer).

So I quickly learned to internalize these feelings of loss, shame and envy. They're ugly, no one wants to hear them, they reflect badly on me ... but they're real.

I wish I knew you, because you sound like a genuine, honest but thoughtful person. I agree with this post. I've noticed in listening to people talk about other people that there's this weird sort of game where people do in fact look down on others if they don't live the same standard of living but they look down on them even more if they don't live the same standard of living and aren't happy about it. It's bizarre and backwards.

I feel like everyone around me is faux enlightened, maybe even on these forums. They talk the talk about not envying others or not keeping up with the joneses or not caring about what other people have. But they have very strong ideas about standard of living and DEFINITELY look down on people who don't make a certain amount of money or who don't live a certain style of life. And of course, even if you are struggling, you're not allowed to notice when other people aren't.

There's like this put up and shut up attitude when it comes to people who are truly middle class.

Whenever I drill down, I realize that many of these "enlightened" people are actually elitist. They mouth empathetic words, but deep down, they kind of feel like they deserve their personal trainer, but for whatever reason, you don't or you just didn't make the right choices.

I know someone who complains constantly about how expensive private school is. Of course, they can afford it. They just don't like paying it. But they seem to think that someone who complains because they are having trouble finding an affordable house in a good school district is ridiculous. It's like they can't see that while private school tuition is an annoyance for them, it is an absolute impossibility for many other people. But yet, those people, in their minds, should just suck it up because, obviously, they didn't work hard enough or make the right choices in life if they are in a position where they can't afford private school. It just baffles me. It's like you are allowed to complain about how expensive things are only if you can afford them. If you can't afford things, you're not allowed to complain at all; you should just accept that you are lower class.

well said. but it happens in other areas too. only skinny people are allowed to complain they are fat, only beautiful people that they are ugly, only young people that they are old etc. it boils down to, you are not supposed to publicly complain about an actual problem, just a fake problem - something that you have solved, or can solve, or know how to solve, and it is mildly annoying. everything else is embarrassing and crass.

You can't have more than one child because your HHI is $150,000? That is just a sad way of thinking. You need to move out of DC to gain some perspective on how people lead happy lives with more children and far less money.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the concept of 'nice' vacations is one of those things that must separate the working class from the middle class, or something, because my husband (lawyer dad, although country lawyer, so not "jet off to Europe" rich) always talks about all these great week-long vacations to disney and maine and wherever. My dad was a firefighter and we visited family in WV for a 4 day weekend, did a 4 day weekend (by car) to Ohio to visit some museum, and did DC a couple of times--and yes, Luray Caverns and Baltimore! RARELY stayed in a hotel. I don't feel like I missed much, but I do hate to travel--don't find it relaxing at all. I can afford nicer trips, but the idea of dropping 5K on a trip that's going to exhaust me seems dumb. Feel like my kid would get a lot more out of playing in the mud with cousins back home than standing in line at an amusement park...

I agree.

how sad.

Why is that sad? Just because someone likes something different than you like doesn't mean it's "sad."

Huh, we have taken my son to Europe, but he likes our annual camping in the Appalachian forest vacation much better. He looks forward to it all year.

People are just full of it, and feel free to be unprincipled and inconsistent as long as it serves their own egos whichever way they slice it for themselves. It just means they have low character.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the concept of 'nice' vacations is one of those things that must separate the working class from the middle class, or something, because my husband (lawyer dad, although country lawyer, so not "jet off to Europe" rich) always talks about all these great week-long vacations to disney and maine and wherever. My dad was a firefighter and we visited family in WV for a 4 day weekend, did a 4 day weekend (by car) to Ohio to visit some museum, and did DC a couple of times--and yes, Luray Caverns and Baltimore! RARELY stayed in a hotel. I don't feel like I missed much, but I do hate to travel--don't find it relaxing at all. I can afford nicer trips, but the idea of dropping 5K on a trip that's going to exhaust me seems dumb. Feel like my kid would get a lot more out of playing in the mud with cousins back home than standing in line at an amusement park...

I agree.

how sad.

For a young child, any trip away from home is a vacation. I can totally see a kid being excited to visit the ballpark and inner harbor in Baltimore. The single mom poster who keeps vacations local sounds like a smart, grounded mom to me. Nothing wrong with spending more on vacations if you can afford it, but limiting expensive travel during the pre-school and elementary school years sounds like an easy way to free up funds for the college account. There is a season for everything.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the concept of 'nice' vacations is one of those things that must separate the working class from the middle class, or something, because my husband (lawyer dad, although country lawyer, so not "jet off to Europe" rich) always talks about all these great week-long vacations to disney and maine and wherever. My dad was a firefighter and we visited family in WV for a 4 day weekend, did a 4 day weekend (by car) to Ohio to visit some museum, and did DC a couple of times--and yes, Luray Caverns and Baltimore! RARELY stayed in a hotel. I don't feel like I missed much, but I do hate to travel--don't find it relaxing at all. I can afford nicer trips, but the idea of dropping 5K on a trip that's going to exhaust me seems dumb. Feel like my kid would get a lot more out of playing in the mud with cousins back home than standing in line at an amusement park...

I agree.

how sad.

Why? I know travel is a status marker, but different strokes.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the concept of 'nice' vacations is one of those things that must separate the working class from the middle class, or something, because my husband (lawyer dad, although country lawyer, so not "jet off to Europe" rich) always talks about all these great week-long vacations to disney and maine and wherever. My dad was a firefighter and we visited family in WV for a 4 day weekend, did a 4 day weekend (by car) to Ohio to visit some museum, and did DC a couple of times--and yes, Luray Caverns and Baltimore! RARELY stayed in a hotel. I don't feel like I missed much, but I do hate to travel--don't find it relaxing at all. I can afford nicer trips, but the idea of dropping 5K on a trip that's going to exhaust me seems dumb. Feel like my kid would get a lot more out of playing in the mud with cousins back home than standing in line at an amusement park...

I agree.

how sad.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He is an attorney and lost his job when the legal market tanked. Our mortgage is 2400 per month and day care is 1500(find me something cheaper I beg you. Does not exist). After saving for retirement and college and paying bills and groceries we have no discretionary money. I am just sad at my reality. I am fully aware it's fine but it's not at all what I imagined. Disappointment

I'm a little confused at your math. I'm a single mom. I'm making $120K. I'm paying about what you're paying for mortgage and daycare. I'm saving $4K a year for son's college but much much less for my own retirement. When DS is 10, I plan to invert that and save more like $4K for my retirement and put aside more like $2K for his college, assuming things are still financially as they are now. Things are tight, but by no means terrible. We go out to eat about two times a week; I am able to have wonderful birthdays with him and buy him the presents I want to buy him; we are planning a vacation to Luray Caves and maybe another to Baltimore this summer... I don't seem to be as angry or resentful as you, and I just wonder what else is going on with your money. I drive an old late model cheapo but reliable car, so low insurance and no car payment. I don't have cable and have a boring cheapo phone ($35+ taxes a month). I keep our thermostat really low and buy some of my clothes at Goodwill.

I also have looked into the afterschool care and it's A LOT less, so I am optimistic in 2 years that maybe things will ease up (as I won't be paying for daycare.)

I'm honestly not trying to sound mean, but I am truly confused by why you'd be so upset at your finances...

Your vacations are crap. Your standards are low.

Luray and Baltimore are pretty bad. Both are a day trip, not a vacation.

Nasty and vicious!

And totally inaccurate too. There are some nice bed and breakfasts out there that can make for a very nice overnight.

overnight? okay but overnight isnt a vacation .

Anonymous wrote:I think the concept of 'nice' vacations is one of those things that must separate the working class from the middle class, or something, because my husband (lawyer dad, although country lawyer, so not "jet off to Europe" rich) always talks about all these great week-long vacations to disney and maine and wherever. My dad was a firefighter and we visited family in WV for a 4 day weekend, did a 4 day weekend (by car) to Ohio to visit some museum, and did DC a couple of times--and yes, Luray Caverns and Baltimore! RARELY stayed in a hotel. I don't feel like I missed much, but I do hate to travel--don't find it relaxing at all. I can afford nicer trips, but the idea of dropping 5K on a trip that's going to exhaust me seems dumb. Feel like my kid would get a lot more out of playing in the mud with cousins back home than standing in line at an amusement park...

I agree.

Anonymous wrote:I'm in the same exact financial situation as OP, percentage-wise, and it's really really hard to just "accept and move on" when you slide backwards -- hard.

I know I need to do just that, accept, in order to be mentally healthy and not be bitter for the rest of my life (I'm 47 so things aren't going to really shoot back 'up' for me in the time I have left). I am beyond grateful that for the time being, I have my good health and so does DS. I try to focus on that.


As someone who grew up happy and lower middle class, never ever knowing the "finer" things in life until her late 20s, I will say this:

I found that it was much, MUCH easier to just never know about the things that come along with a high professional income in the first place, than to have enjoyed those things and have them yanked away from you abruptly. I'm serious.

What's more, as an educated and supposedly enlightened woman who is surrounded by educated and enlightened peers, you can never, ever breathe word of these feelings of loss to your enlightened friends. One, because they will call you shallow for mourning the loss of "stuff." Two, because in many or all cases, they themselves are likely still living the good life themselves and can't relate (although they may mouth empathetic words if they are indeed good and loyal friends. Then they go to their personal trainer).

So I quickly learned to internalize these feelings of loss, shame and envy. They're ugly, no one wants to hear them, they reflect badly on me ... but they're real.

I wish I knew you, because you sound like a genuine, honest but thoughtful person. I agree with this post. I've noticed in listening to people talk about other people that there's this weird sort of game where people do in fact look down on others if they don't live the same standard of living but they look down on them even more if they don't live the same standard of living and aren't happy about it. It's bizarre and backwards.

I feel like everyone around me is faux enlightened, maybe even on these forums. They talk the talk about not envying others or not keeping up with the joneses or not caring about what other people have. But they have very strong ideas about standard of living and DEFINITELY look down on people who don't make a certain amount of money or who don't live a certain style of life. And of course, even if you are struggling, you're not allowed to notice when other people aren't.

There's like this put up and shut up attitude when it comes to people who are truly middle class.

Whenever I drill down, I realize that many of these "enlightened" people are actually elitist. They mouth empathetic words, but deep down, they kind of feel like they deserve their personal trainer, but for whatever reason, you don't or you just didn't make the right choices.

I know someone who complains constantly about how expensive private school is. Of course, they can afford it. They just don't like paying it. But they seem to think that someone who complains because they are having trouble finding an affordable house in a good school district is ridiculous. It's like they can't see that while private school tuition is an annoyance for them, it is an absolute impossibility for many other people. But yet, those people, in their minds, should just suck it up because, obviously, they didn't work hard enough or make the right choices in life if they are in a position where they can't afford private school. It just baffles me. It's like you are allowed to complain about how expensive things are only if you can afford them. If you can't afford things, you're not allowed to complain at all; you should just accept that you are lower class.

Do you really think that is why people don't want to hear it (because it is ugly and reflects badly on you)? I think in general people have trouble hearing things that are negative or bad. It makes them very uncomfortable.


Nah, I have friends who are going through some tough times. Cheating husband, death of 2 family members one month apart, loss of a job, child diagnosed with severe SN, and a health problem to name a few of the things my friends are going through. I have no problem listening to them, trying to help them through the tough times, and just hearing all the shit they are dealing with. If I had a friend vent to me how sad they were that their HHI is 150K, and that after saving for college, retirement, etc., they don't have enough money to go out to eat, I'd probably feel less of them considering another friend is realizing that retirement may never be possible considering her kid will never be independent and will require a lifetime of costly therapies, treatments, and medical devices that are not all covered by insurance. I would just have a hard time being empathetic to someone like OP when I have friends other friends who put her problems into perspective.

Is that nice of me? Well no, but it's honest.

Ok. The reason I asked is that I am having a really hard time right now because I am in the middle of a divorce (my husband cheated on me) and I feel like my sadness about it is driving friends away.

Move. Seriously. Lawyers can make 100K elsewhere in this country and live like kings.

I think the concept of 'nice' vacations is one of those things that must separate the working class from the middle class, or something, because my husband (lawyer dad, although country lawyer, so not "jet off to Europe" rich) always talks about all these great week-long vacations to disney and maine and wherever. My dad was a firefighter and we visited family in WV for a 4 day weekend, did a 4 day weekend (by car) to Ohio to visit some museum, and did DC a couple of times--and yes, Luray Caverns and Baltimore! RARELY stayed in a hotel. I don't feel like I missed much, but I do hate to travel--don't find it relaxing at all. I can afford nicer trips, but the idea of dropping 5K on a trip that's going to exhaust me seems dumb. Feel like my kid would get a lot more out of playing in the mud with cousins back home than standing in line at an amusement park...

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He is an attorney and lost his job when the legal market tanked. Our mortgage is 2400 per month and day care is 1500(find me something cheaper I beg you. Does not exist). After saving for retirement and college and paying bills and groceries we have no discretionary money. I am just sad at my reality. I am fully aware it's fine but it's not at all what I imagined. Disappointment

I'm a little confused at your math. I'm a single mom. I'm making $120K. I'm paying about what you're paying for mortgage and daycare. I'm saving $4K a year for son's college but much much less for my own retirement. When DS is 10, I plan to invert that and save more like $4K for my retirement and put aside more like $2K for his college, assuming things are still financially as they are now. Things are tight, but by no means terrible. We go out to eat about two times a week; I am able to have wonderful birthdays with him and buy him the presents I want to buy him; we are planning a vacation to Luray Caves and maybe another to Baltimore this summer... I don't seem to be as angry or resentful as you, and I just wonder what else is going on with your money. I drive an old late model cheapo but reliable car, so low insurance and no car payment. I don't have cable and have a boring cheapo phone ($35+ taxes a month). I keep our thermostat really low and buy some of my clothes at Goodwill.

I also have looked into the afterschool care and it's A LOT less, so I am optimistic in 2 years that maybe things will ease up (as I won't be paying for daycare.)

I'm honestly not trying to sound mean, but I am truly confused by why you'd be so upset at your finances...

Your vacations are crap. Your standards are low.

Luray and Baltimore are pretty bad. Both are a day trip, not a vacation.

Nasty and vicious!

And totally inaccurate too. There are some nice bed and breakfasts out there that can make for a very nice overnight.