Anonymous wrote:You'd be wrong. Our school has > 90% FARMS. > 50% ESOL. And it's not a cake walk. It's not all working out just fine. We're planning to move to a better school district because of it. But talking about a group of people as if they alone are to blame for poverty and language barriers isn't helpful. Why do you have more of a right to access public education than any of those families? For me it's not enough to say that because a child's parents violated immigration laws, we ought to feel resentful towards them and treat them like they're stealing all of our public services. Maybe we disagree on that point, but to me that is what feels like race-baiting. Talking about who pays what in taxes and who's a freeloader etc. - that's where it starts to feel like hate and seems to be drifting away from the underlying issue of how to deal with population growth and poverty in a compassionate way. And I totally agree that it has an undeniable impact on the schools. I'm not pretending it doesn't. But please can we stop with the finger pointing about who is wrongfully availing themselves of public services.

To clarify, I'm 8:46, not the poster immediately above who discussed illegal immigrants / public services / resources in regard to schools. I'm not race baiting. Having compassion for kids of illegal immigrants - or legal immigrants (many of the kids in my neighborhood school are LEGAL immigrants) - and expressing worry about the impact of that on the school system and local resources are not mutually exclusive.

To say that immigration has affected the school system is a fact. To say that a large and rapid growth in population of ESOL and FARMs kids hits a school hard is a fact. We can talk about ways to mitigate the causes (and I have no clear idea on what those would be since I'm certainly pro-legal immigration and love the diversity of my part of Silver Spring) but until we have solutions, our schools suffer. Resources in Montgomery County aren't infinite, particularly not as it relates to the public school system. The question is how do we manage the influx of poor / non-English speaking kids without comprimising the overall quality of education? I wish I had the answer - I'd bottle it and sell it!

Expressing that isn't race baiting. It's a concern for many of us and particularly those of us who don't have the financial means to seek alternatives. Moving for my family would be a tremendous hardship and personal sadness. I love this area. Private school isn't financially feasible.

But more to the point, I'm a big believer in public school education and want my kids to get the best possible public school education ... But that's not going to happen for us in our local elementary school and a lot of that is because of the large population of non-English / low SES students and how that has transformed the classroom environment. I don't envy the administrators and educators who are facing those issues. But you can't fix the systemic issues unless you name the problem.

A relative has been and is is a teacher at a couple of high schools in montgomery coutny. Sometimes they teach regualr classes, sometimes IB and sometimes AP and he is currently at a magnet HS.

They say it is crystal clear on back to school night. the AP, IB or magnet student's parents show up at all the other classes they have taught over the years maybe 2-3 show up each year.

if the parents don't give a #$%#$ the students won't.

Anonymous wrote:You'd be wrong. Our school has > 90% FARMS. > 50% ESOL. And it's not a cake walk. It's not all working out just fine. We're planning to move to a better school district because of it. But talking about a group of people as if they alone are to blame for poverty and language barriers isn't helpful. Why do you have more of a right to access public education than any of those families? For me it's not enough to say that because a child's parents violated immigration laws, we ought to feel resentful towards them and treat them like they're stealing all of our public services. Maybe we disagree on that point, but to me that is what feels like race-baiting. Talking about who pays what in taxes and who's a freeloader etc. - that's where it starts to feel like hate and seems to be drifting away from the underlying issue of how to deal with population growth and poverty in a compassionate way. And I totally agree that it has an undeniable impact on the schools. I'm not pretending it doesn't. But please can we stop with the finger pointing about who is wrongfully availing themselves of public services.

This is a lovely and compassionate post.

This is so depressing. Anecdotally, I can tell by looking around my neighborhood and comparing what I see to the FARMS and ESOL rates at the local elementary school, people of any means are sending their kids elsewhere. While $300k isn't that much for the DC area, that is the minimum for a sfh in the DCC, and that requires a middle class income. It's sad that that doesn't equate to a middle class school. I stress all the time about where to send my kids to school. Take a chance on local high FARMS high ESOL school? Scramble to try to move to at least a better elementary school in the DCC, or out of it altogether? Can't afford private, so maybe send them to a Catholic school? I think that there is a critical mass of professional-class parents that if everyone just decided to send their kids to the local schools, it would diversify the schools and provide the peer group most of us worry about the schools lacking. The problem is no one wants to experiment with their own kids so they try I get out. Hence the "white flight" (really not race-based, actually socioeconomic-based).

It seems that MoCo's solution is to provide meals (FARMS), have ESOL teachers in classrooms, keep class sizes smaller, and in some cases put in community health clinics at schools. I'm sure the thinking is that providing these extras are to bring the kids who need the services up while not impacting the kids who don't need the services. Problem is, how is it not impacting those kids if their peers are so behind and so much in need of basics?

I don't know what the solution is, but it seems the county has to do something to address this. They can't just throw more resources to address the issues surrounding poverty. They will have to reassure the middle class families that the schools can meet their kids' academic needs as well.

Anonymous wrote:You'd be wrong. Our school has > 90% FARMS. > 50% ESOL. And it's not a cake walk. It's not all working out just fine. We're planning to move to a better school district because of it. But talking about a group of people as if they alone are to blame for poverty and language barriers isn't helpful. Why do you have more of a right to access public education than any of those families? For me it's not enough to say that because a child's parents violated immigration laws, we ought to feel resentful towards them and treat them like they're stealing all of our public services. Maybe we disagree on that point, but to me that is what feels like race-baiting. Talking about who pays what in taxes and who's a freeloader etc. - that's where it starts to feel like hate and seems to be drifting away from the underlying issue of how to deal with population growth and poverty in a compassionate way. And I totally agree that it has an undeniable impact on the schools. I'm not pretending it doesn't. But please can we stop with the finger pointing about who is wrongfully availing themselves of public services.

I agree with you 100%. And who says every immigrant is illegal anyway? I happen to think that poster just doesn't like immigrants but couches it as being against illegal immigrants as that is somehow more socially acceptable.

While I do sometimes have negative feelings towards immigrants, I then have to remind myself that it is only an act of fate that I happened to be born a white, UMC American. Why am I and my family more deserving of a better life than anyone else on the planet?

You'd be wrong. Our school has > 90% FARMS. > 50% ESOL. And it's not a cake walk. It's not all working out just fine. We're planning to move to a better school district because of it. But talking about a group of people as if they alone are to blame for poverty and language barriers isn't helpful. Why do you have more of a right to access public education than any of those families? For me it's not enough to say that because a child's parents violated immigration laws, we ought to feel resentful towards them and treat them like they're stealing all of our public services. Maybe we disagree on that point, but to me that is what feels like race-baiting. Talking about who pays what in taxes and who's a freeloader etc. - that's where it starts to feel like hate and seems to be drifting away from the underlying issue of how to deal with population growth and poverty in a compassionate way. And I totally agree that it has an undeniable impact on the schools. I'm not pretending it doesn't. But please can we stop with the finger pointing about who is wrongfully availing themselves of public services.

Anonymous wrote:The sociology behind race-baiting and blaming others for our challenges in life.... Maybe we should start a new thread to explore the topic.

I don't thinik it's fair to characterize concerns about the impact of an enormous and fairly rapid influx of non-English speaking immigrants (legal or illegal) on a school system as race baiting or blaming others. If you have a school contending with a 30% increase in FARMS students (as is my local elementary), an overwhelming number of whom are non-native English speakers and ESOL students, over the course of the last 5 years, it has serious consequences for the delivery model of education. That's a fact. The result is that the education of all suffers. That's a fact, too. Look at the test results at schools where this is a reality.

The issues are complex and it's as much about the educational delivery model as it is that many of these students not only learning English as they try to tackle subjects like math and social studies, but that many are from lower SES and don't necessarily have the support for education at home to thrive in school. That's a fact, too (I am a former social worker in MoCo and I know of what I speak in this regard). What might work in Bethesda or Rockville or Clarksburg is not working in the DCC, for example.

And I'm going to guess by your post that your local school doesn't face these challenges. The only people who seem to be dismissive of these issues as racist / race baiting are people who A) don't have to deal with this - their DC is in a very strong school or private or B) don't have kids. Parents in the DCC of ALL backgrounds are concerned about this issue.

Schools need to focus on teaching. The other community services that are offered at school are not the core focus of eduction. Our schools have become the community based resource center for kids and it is taking away from the learning. Extra food and clothing if we are going to make them the responsibility of the govt need to be implemented by people other than the teachers. The teachers need to focus on teaching. And they need to teach to a high standard. Instead of teaching to the lowest denominator, raise the bar and ask the low performing students to rise to the occasion.

The sociology behind race-baiting and blaming others for our challenges in life.... Maybe we should start a new thread to explore the topic.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I feel your pain. We are in an area of Silver Spring with a crappy elementary school (it wasn't too bad when we bought our home 10 years ago but since then the number of FARMS has skyrocketed and, unfortunately, it's seems to have had an inverse relationship to school performance).

Anyway, my husband and I really struggle with what to do. We cannot afford a home in a nicer area of Silver Spring, we certainly cannot afford a private school or to move to Bethesda, Chevy Chase, etc. We're stuck. It certainly feels like MoCo is not only the county of haves and have nots (which I think it's always been, to some extent) but that the school system for those of us in my neck of the woods is broken.

I also agree with the PP that if there was some degree of tracking, I wouldn't worry. But a neighbor tells me that his 3rd grader is in a class with students who don't speak any English and spends his days doing busy work because the teacher is consumed with teaching to the 65% of her class that is still learning the language.

I love Silver Spring and I love this area of Maryland, but I'm looking for a job that will allow me to primarily telework so DH and I can move out of MoCo. We can't afford the nicer neighborhoods that feed into the decent schools. So depressing.

And I feel your pain.... Silver Spring is such a cool place and realizing that the schools just weren't an option - even when I was being as open-minded as possible - was depressing. We moved out of MoCo and it was the right choice for us. I think the whole discussion about the achievement gap sort of misses the point sometimes. Our schools needed more resources, they needed more parent involvement, they needed more programs tailored to address the language barriers, they needed more infrastructure to make the schools more attractive to everyone in the community. Who cares if the test scores are high enough? A look at what's happening "on the ground" shows that more basic issues need to be addressed before we even start talking about test performance.

The more illegal immigrants that come to MOCO, the worse it will get. More resources go to ESOL and FARMS than ever. This is money in the school budget set aside JUST to get them to speak English and get fed. That is a lot of money taking away from the classrooms. Has your school been losing paraeducators in the class? Ours has and it is because we now have 3 ESOL teachers to the 1 we had when my 14yr old was there. Parent involvement? Are you kidding. They don't even speak English, would never show up for a PTA meeting and don't volunteer their time at anything. The schools are plummeting and the state/county welcomes them but can not afford them. It is a huge problem that people seem to not want to speak of because it is not politically correct. Our county is #2 in the COUNTRY for increased illegal immigration. It will only get worse. In 2009 it was estimated that $966 million was spent on educating illegal aliens in the state of MD. An additional $250 million for ESL. Since MOCO has 70% of the state's illegal immigrants you can see how this eats up the budget a little. And that was 5yrs ago. And you do realize they actually don't pay taxes so they don't contribute to the American education system in anyway. But..... it is not nice to say anything like this so let's keep trying to figure out a plan that works while they keep coming.

+1 million. We have to pity them instead. They break federal laws and we reward them with our own tax dollars and get school funding taken away to feed them and teach ESL.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Get liberals out and have conservatives run the schools with the right to kick out kids who don't want or try to learn.

Put those kids in vocational school or boarding school.

Watch the results increase . The problem is liberalism ... Expensive and lousy results every time.

I'm a liberal and I agree.

We are so elitist to think that anyone in a trade is a dumb ass. I will never make as much as my father, yet I'm college educated THREE TIMES!

School isn't for everyone, and there will always be an underclass. I think each kid needs a chance, but after seeing some fool in grade 9 get kicked up to grade 10 for barely passing and reading at a 6th grade level, he either needs intense remediation (which the county will not do) or he needs another outlet.

In the majority of cases, he'll drop out or end up in jail. And if the system DOES catch him in an alternative setting, graduation rates there are abysmal there. Yes, there are successful alternative settings, but Mo Co doesn't have one in the stellar category!

Wow
And you get to decide who these kids are ?
Who decides what kids get sent to vocational school ???

You mean like in Germany when 12 year olds take a test which sets them in a vocational or educational track for the rest of their state funded schooling?
Or the big high school test given in turkey, Greece, etc to dictate what career you get or is in demand?
Or maybe you'd like Manhattan's style where your kid must TEST IN to the best public schools. Lo and behold Stuy and Bronx science are vast majority Asian American.

It's a trade, which you snub - or unemployment or jail.

You're an idiot, by the way - and full fucking fledged elitist.

Thanks for putting down my family, btw - stonemasons/bricklayers and barbers.

good job!

dude, one poster flagrantly asked "Who decides who goes where" as if everyone and his mother should go to college or die.

Then the next poster matter of factly stated how Europe decides that very thing!
Europe acknowledges that university is not for everyone, and white collar jobs at computers or sitting in a classroom for 4-8 more years is not for everyone, nor what the economy needs! Apprenticeships, learning a trade well, and getting paid in a stable profession is a fantastic way to apply oneself and handled considerably better in other countries. This should absolutely be on the radar of HS guidance counselors and parents in the U.S.

I don't need you to speak for me, especially if you're going to get it wrong!!!!
I asked who gets to decide who goes where because even now in the present system, we have pushed people pushing folks in the wrong direction. I was asking for accountability, plans, and a strategy. I know good and well that college isn't for everyone nor is it necessary for everyone. I just also happen to know that because a child has a behavior issue doesn't mean he should be counted out as if that automatically disqualifies him for college. I've seen too many kids who counselor a TRIED to discourage because the kid did not have a certain background or looked like what they thought was college material. It was not about a particular kids interests or desire, but the counselor a agenda. Ideally, we would have a educational system that can serve everyone equitably and that we are able to hire and pay qualified educators who are invested In identifying and guiding children in those things in which they can excel be it law school, construction, masonry or medicine.
It's just ass-holery to just throw out there that certain kids just need to be dumped in a vocational school is if 'I don't know what else to do with him make him go becplumbers or mechanics. As if those aren't necessary and dignified professions...just something to do that's not as valuable as getting a damn degree.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Get liberals out and have conservatives run the schools with the right to kick out kids who don't want or try to learn.

Put those kids in vocational school or boarding school.

Watch the results increase . The problem is liberalism ... Expensive and lousy results every time.

I'm a liberal and I agree.

We are so elitist to think that anyone in a trade is a dumb ass. I will never make as much as my father, yet I'm college educated THREE TIMES!

School isn't for everyone, and there will always be an underclass. I think each kid needs a chance, but after seeing some fool in grade 9 get kicked up to grade 10 for barely passing and reading at a 6th grade level, he either needs intense remediation (which the county will not do) or he needs another outlet.

In the majority of cases, he'll drop out or end up in jail. And if the system DOES catch him in an alternative setting, graduation rates there are abysmal there. Yes, there are successful alternative settings, but Mo Co doesn't have one in the stellar category!

Wow
And you get to decide who these kids are ?
Who decides what kids get sent to vocational school ???

You mean like in Germany when 12 year olds take a test which sets them in a vocational or educational track for the rest of their state funded schooling?
Or the big high school test given in turkey, Greece, etc to dictate what career you get or is in demand?
Or maybe you'd like Manhattan's style where your kid must TEST IN to the best public schools. Lo and behold Stuy and Bronx science are vast majority Asian American.

It's a trade, which you snub - or unemployment or jail.

You're an idiot, by the way - and full fucking fledged elitist.

Thanks for putting down my family, btw - stonemasons/bricklayers and barbers.

good job!

Isn't it tragic that our society is becoming so bereft of any kind of appreciation for craftsmanship, skill unless it looks good on a college bound resume. What happen to doing something for the love of it or because you are good at it. I agree full fucking fledged elitist.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Get liberals out and have conservatives run the schools with the right to kick out kids who don't want or try to learn.

Put those kids in vocational school or boarding school.

Watch the results increase . The problem is liberalism ... Expensive and lousy results every time.

I'm a liberal and I agree.

We are so elitist to think that anyone in a trade is a dumb ass. I will never make as much as my father, yet I'm college educated THREE TIMES!

School isn't for everyone, and there will always be an underclass. I think each kid needs a chance, but after seeing some fool in grade 9 get kicked up to grade 10 for barely passing and reading at a 6th grade level, he either needs intense remediation (which the county will not do) or he needs another outlet.

In the majority of cases, he'll drop out or end up in jail. And if the system DOES catch him in an alternative setting, graduation rates there are abysmal there. Yes, there are successful alternative settings, but Mo Co doesn't have one in the stellar category!

Wow
And you get to decide who these kids are ?
Who decides what kids get sent to vocational school ???

You mean like in Germany when 12 year olds take a test which sets them in a vocational or educational track for the rest of their state funded schooling?
Or the big high school test given in turkey, Greece, etc to dictate what career you get or is in demand?
Or maybe you'd like Manhattan's style where your kid must TEST IN to the best public schools. Lo and behold Stuy and Bronx science are vast majority Asian American.

It's a trade, which you snub - or unemployment or jail.

You're an idiot, by the way - and full fucking fledged elitist.

Thanks for putting down my family, btw - stonemasons/bricklayers and barbers.

good job!

dude, one poster flagrantly asked "Who decides who goes where" as if everyone and his mother should go to college or die.

Then the next poster matter of factly stated how Europe decides that very thing!
Europe acknowledges that university is not for everyone, and white collar jobs at computers or sitting in a classroom for 4-8 more years is not for everyone, nor what the economy needs! Apprenticeships, learning a trade well, and getting paid in a stable profession is a fantastic way to apply oneself and handled considerably better in other countries. This should absolutely be on the radar of HS guidance counselors and parents in the U.S.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Get liberals out and have conservatives run the schools with the right to kick out kids who don't want or try to learn.

Put those kids in vocational school or boarding school.

Watch the results increase . The problem is liberalism ... Expensive and lousy results every time.

I'm a liberal and I agree.

We are so elitist to think that anyone in a trade is a dumb ass. I will never make as much as my father, yet I'm college educated THREE TIMES!

School isn't for everyone, and there will always be an underclass. I think each kid needs a chance, but after seeing some fool in grade 9 get kicked up to grade 10 for barely passing and reading at a 6th grade level, he either needs intense remediation (which the county will not do) or he needs another outlet.

In the majority of cases, he'll drop out or end up in jail. And if the system DOES catch him in an alternative setting, graduation rates there are abysmal there. Yes, there are successful alternative settings, but Mo Co doesn't have one in the stellar category!

Wow
And you get to decide who these kids are ?
Who decides what kids get sent to vocational school ???

You mean like in Germany when 12 year olds take a test which sets them in a vocational or educational track for the rest of their state funded schooling?
Or the big high school test given in turkey, Greece, etc to dictate what career you get or is in demand?
Or maybe you'd like Manhattan's style where your kid must TEST IN to the best public schools. Lo and behold Stuy and Bronx science are vast majority Asian American.

It's a trade, which you snub - or unemployment or jail.

You're an idiot, by the way - and full fucking fledged elitist.

Thanks for putting down my family, btw - stonemasons/bricklayers and barbers.

good job!

Goodness knows I would not have wanted to decide my career path at the age of 12 how dumb is that!