Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My special needs child with IEP has a FSIQ of 155 on the WISC. You have no idea what you are yammering about.

Not targeted at you, obviously. It was targeted at a more general audience who doesn't realize how much difference there is between kids. Yeah, I do know. My kid (12) has been labeled 2e due to OCD, anxiety disorder, and borderline Asperger's.

What is "borderline" Asperger's? My kid with the 155 IQ has Asperger's and I've never heard this...

DS is in elementary school at a charter. Not bored or any other issues even though his NT classmates are not geniuses.

Same. Our developmental pediatrician said that he was 2 points shy of the label. That's borderline.

Are you talking about ADOS scoring? My child got the diagnosis for ASD by 2 points. But I was informed you either have it or you don't. There is no borderline. I guess if you miss it by 1 or 2 points, it men's you have many traits for ASD but don't qualify for the diagnosis.

That's incorrect. There's no precise quantification, hard criteria, or science to diagnosing Aspergers. There are a number of traits identified in DSM-5 that are associated with Aspergers, but from there, like with so many other areas of Autism spectrum disorder, it's a judgement call.

Anonymous wrote:True, it's not like cancer. But "borderline" Asperger's/ASD is not a diagnosis and will not get an IEP.

You HAVE to be a troll, because no one else could make such an asinine comment (did the OP of the "borderline" comment" ever claim that they deserve an IEP because of it? No!).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:White men most certainly can sue if they're discriminated against on the basis of their race or sex.

ut

People can sue for anything... But anti discrimination laws don't apply to them.

Yes they do. A white man at a majority minority company or with a minority boss can sue for racial discrimination. A white man with a female boss can sue for sex discrimination. Most white men over 40 sue for age discrimination. But these laws apply across the board. IDEA does not and should not.

WTF.

Do you think IDEA was created by DCPS? What is wrong with folk, really!!!!

The point I was making was that anti-discrimination laws apply to everyone - you can be discriminated against based on gender whether you are male or female, based on race whether you are black or white, based on national origin no matter what country you come from, including America, etc. Everyone has a gender, a race, a national origin, a religion (even if it is atheism). Everyone has the right to sue under these laws, and even white men have succeeded in rare cases. Their cases cannot be dismissed just because they are white or male.

Age discrimination is more like IDEA - no one under 40 has the right to sue.

IDEA applies to a particular class of children - those who are disabled, and what constitutes a disability is specifically enumerated - a pp has given the list. Gifted is not a category.

They are both federal laws. But legally, there is a gigantic difference between a neutrally worded law or statute that applies "across the board" and a law or statute that specifically lists who is covered (and anyone else by definition is not). That is why legally IDEA is not the appropriate law for OP to focus on, because OP's child has no standing to sue.

Furthermore, politically, as many others have pointed out, given the purpose of IDEA, trying to define a gifted child as disabled per se is offensive to many parents of disabled children because of the reasons the law was enacted and the types of children the law is designed to protect, and thus not a good strategy.

None of that has anything to do with DCPS. I would add though that DCPS has so many problems meeting the needs of children with and without disabilities that I think the entire argument would be better made in a jurisdiction that is not scoring last on the NAEP in the entire country (Mississippi is next to last).

Anonymous wrote:As a parent of two elementary age 2e children, I can attest to the challenges that public school systems in general have with meeting the basics of IDEA. There is also the whole issue of the counter-intuitive interpretations of FAPE (districts can offer the bare minimum) and LRE (districts shouldn't pay for private school of any kind).

Fundamentally, the intent of the federal laws is to address two problems: 1) the over-labeling and frequent misdiagnoses of minority children as having "behavioral" problems or low IQs due to biased tests and 2) warehousing of children outside public education settings and beyond oversight provided to children attending a public school for free.

Could DCPS develop a "decent" G&T program as one poster suggested? Probably. But that could easily further add to the issues of over-labeling, misdiagnosis, and the slow pace of evaluations. Not to mention teaching to the dreaded tests and encouraging parents with resources to supplement their kids' way into G&T. Check out the AAP forum on DCUM.

OP, I feel your pain. But this is a small city with a lot of ground to make up in the basics. There are ways to advocate for change overall. But you can save yourself a lot of headaches by not conflating the legalities of IEPs or IDEA for your own child into what should be a policy issue.

If you start a G&T advocate group that doesn't get itself tangled in SPED knots, I'd probably join.

+2

Well said!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My special needs child with IEP has a FSIQ of 155 on the WISC. You have no idea what you are yammering about.

Not targeted at you, obviously. It was targeted at a more general audience who doesn't realize how much difference there is between kids. Yeah, I do know. My kid (12) has been labeled 2e due to OCD, anxiety disorder, and borderline Asperger's.

What is "borderline" Asperger's? My kid with the 155 IQ has Asperger's and I've never heard this...

DS is in elementary school at a charter. Not bored or any other issues even though his NT classmates are not geniuses.

Same. Our developmental pediatrician said that he was 2 points shy of the label. That's borderline.

Are you talking about ADOS scoring? My child got the diagnosis for ASD by 2 points. But I was informed you either have it or you don't. There is no borderline. I guess if you miss it by 1 or 2 points, it men's you have many traits for ASD but don't qualify for the diagnosis.

Asperger's isn't like cancer. Like most psychological "disorders," it is not understood very well. A scale had to be chosen to capture the most extreme cases, and it is a bit on the conservative side already. Someone who is borderline shows most of the traits, but is either able to control those traits, or does not exhibit them with sufficient intensity to be grouped into the larger case.

An interesting study has shown a high prevalence of Asperger's and autism among children of scientists and mathematicians. Abilities for higher order thinking are clearly linked to the same genetics as those two disorders. Not many brilliant scientists have autism, but autistic children are more likely to be brilliant scientists than "ordinary" children. Thus, the "borderline" questions rapidly devolve into questions about "what is a psychological disorder," and "do we simply not recognize a new subset of humanity that has unusual capabilities, but cannot fit into old norms?" Controversial, to say the least, but interesting nonetheless.

To the PP who suggests that the "borderline Asperger's" comment was a veiled complaint about not getting special treatment: I don't read that inference at all. I don't see any language to suggest that the OP of that comment was looking for special treatment. Maybe they do want such favor, but based upon the information provided, you seem to be creating that assumption yourself.

True, it's not like cancer. But "borderline" Asperger's/ASD is not a diagnosis and will not get an IEP.

Anonymous wrote:As a parent of two elementary age 2e children, I can attest to the challenges that public school systems in general have with meeting the basics of IDEA. There is also the whole issue of the counter-intuitive interpretations of FAPE (districts can offer the bare minimum) and LRE (districts shouldn't pay for private school of any kind).

Fundamentally, the intent of the federal laws is to address two problems: 1) the over-labeling and frequent misdiagnoses of minority children as having "behavioral" problems or low IQs due to biased tests and 2) warehousing of children outside public education settings and beyond oversight provided to children attending a public school for free.

Could DCPS develop a "decent" G&T program as one poster suggested? Probably. But that could easily further add to the issues of over-labeling, misdiagnosis, and the slow pace of evaluations. Not to mention teaching to the dreaded tests and encouraging parents with resources to supplement their kids' way into G&T. Check out the AAP forum on DCUM.

OP, I feel your pain. But this is a small city with a lot of ground to make up in the basics. There are ways to advocate for change overall. But you can save yourself a lot of headaches by not conflating the legalities of IEPs or IDEA for your own child into what should be a policy issue.

If you start a G&T advocate group that doesn't get itself tangled in SPED knots, I'd probably join.

+1. The one thing that clearly pops out from reading this thread is how many people have an agenda to prevent G&T programs. If you take a legalistic approach, you will have a very, very hard time, because some of these people either are or have retained lawyers.

On the other hand, if you take a policy-based approach, you might have a chance, slim as it may be. Scientific and statistical merits can be brought up independently. You will need to find some vocal advocates, but in DC, that should be possible.

As a parent of two elementary age 2e children, I can attest to the challenges that public school systems in general have with meeting the basics of IDEA. There is also the whole issue of the counter-intuitive interpretations of FAPE (districts can offer the bare minimum) and LRE (districts shouldn't pay for private school of any kind).

Fundamentally, the intent of the federal laws is to address two problems: 1) the over-labeling and frequent misdiagnoses of minority children as having "behavioral" problems or low IQs due to biased tests and 2) warehousing of children outside public education settings and beyond oversight provided to children attending a public school for free.

Could DCPS develop a "decent" G&T program as one poster suggested? Probably. But that could easily further add to the issues of over-labeling, misdiagnosis, and the slow pace of evaluations. Not to mention teaching to the dreaded tests and encouraging parents with resources to supplement their kids' way into G&T. Check out the AAP forum on DCUM.

OP, I feel your pain. But this is a small city with a lot of ground to make up in the basics. There are ways to advocate for change overall. But you can save yourself a lot of headaches by not conflating the legalities of IEPs or IDEA for your own child into what should be a policy issue.

If you start a G&T advocate group that doesn't get itself tangled in SPED knots, I'd probably join.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My special needs child with IEP has a FSIQ of 155 on the WISC. You have no idea what you are yammering about.

Not targeted at you, obviously. It was targeted at a more general audience who doesn't realize how much difference there is between kids. Yeah, I do know. My kid (12) has been labeled 2e due to OCD, anxiety disorder, and borderline Asperger's.

What is "borderline" Asperger's? My kid with the 155 IQ has Asperger's and I've never heard this...

DS is in elementary school at a charter. Not bored or any other issues even though his NT classmates are not geniuses.

Same. Our developmental pediatrician said that he was 2 points shy of the label. That's borderline.

Are you talking about ADOS scoring? My child got the diagnosis for ASD by 2 points. But I was informed you either have it or you don't. There is no borderline. I guess if you miss it by 1 or 2 points, it men's you have many traits for ASD but don't qualify for the diagnosis.

Asperger's isn't like cancer. Like most psychological "disorders," it is not understood very well. A scale had to be chosen to capture the most extreme cases, and it is a bit on the conservative side already. Someone who is borderline shows most of the traits, but is either able to control those traits, or does not exhibit them with sufficient intensity to be grouped into the larger case.

An interesting study has shown a high prevalence of Asperger's and autism among children of scientists and mathematicians. Abilities for higher order thinking are clearly linked to the same genetics as those two disorders. Not many brilliant scientists have autism, but autistic children are more likely to be brilliant scientists than "ordinary" children. Thus, the "borderline" questions rapidly devolve into questions about "what is a psychological disorder," and "do we simply not recognize a new subset of humanity that has unusual capabilities, but cannot fit into old norms?" Controversial, to say the least, but interesting nonetheless.

To the PP who suggests that the "borderline Asperger's" comment was a veiled complaint about not getting special treatment: I don't read that inference at all. I don't see any language to suggest that the OP of that comment was looking for special treatment. Maybe they do want such favor, but based upon the information provided, you seem to be creating that assumption yourself.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP but isn't it against the law for public school system to not serve the needs of each student? If severaly disabled students are being sent to private schools (DCPS used to do this more often than people realize), then shouldnt DCPS be legally required to send the most gifted students to adademically rigorous private schools as well?

The law says you have to be able to access the curriculum and pass. If you need more time, a different strategy or a different environment to succeed (pass), you can use your IEP that way. If you are gifted and need a greater challenge, you are already passing.

Your child required enrichment.

The state of FL does have gifted IEPs, but they are not the same as an IEP for a disability like blindness.

Check out the center at William and Mary. Lots of gifted kids are also in need of special socio-emotional care (they feel chronically alone because some have a hard time making friends that get them). W&M is doing great research in this field. I considered a move to Williamsburg!

This. OP is only making it more difficult for themselves by trying to get an IEP for their gifted kid.

Send your kid to BASIS like another pp suggested, sign them up for CTY, Stanford, etc, move to Fl or Williamsburg or VA for TJ.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My special needs child with IEP has a FSIQ of 155 on the WISC. You have no idea what you are yammering about.

Not targeted at you, obviously. It was targeted at a more general audience who doesn't realize how much difference there is between kids. Yeah, I do know. My kid (12) has been labeled 2e due to OCD, anxiety disorder, and borderline Asperger's.

What is "borderline" Asperger's? My kid with the 155 IQ has Asperger's and I've never heard this...

DS is in elementary school at a charter. Not bored or any other issues even though his NT classmates are not geniuses.

Same. Our developmental pediatrician said that he was 2 points shy of the label. That's borderline.

Are you talking about ADOS scoring? My child got the diagnosis for ASD by 2 points. But I was informed you either have it or you don't. There is no borderline. I guess if you miss it by 1 or 2 points, it men's you have many traits for ASD but don't qualify for the diagnosis.

Maybe pp did not get a diagnosis which means no IEP so they're trying to get one by using "gifted" which it not a disability classification?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My special needs child with IEP has a FSIQ of 155 on the WISC. You have no idea what you are yammering about.

Not targeted at you, obviously. It was targeted at a more general audience who doesn't realize how much difference there is between kids. Yeah, I do know. My kid (12) has been labeled 2e due to OCD, anxiety disorder, and borderline Asperger's.

What is "borderline" Asperger's? My kid with the 155 IQ has Asperger's and I've never heard this...

DS is in elementary school at a charter. Not bored or any other issues even though his NT classmates are not geniuses.

Same. Our developmental pediatrician said that he was 2 points shy of the label. That's borderline.

Are you talking about ADOS scoring? My child got the diagnosis for ASD by 2 points. But I was informed you either have it or you don't. There is no borderline. I guess if you miss it by 1 or 2 points, it men's you have many traits for ASD but don't qualify for the diagnosis.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My special needs child with IEP has a FSIQ of 155 on the WISC. You have no idea what you are yammering about.

Not targeted at you, obviously. It was targeted at a more general audience who doesn't realize how much difference there is between kids. Yeah, I do know. My kid (12) has been labeled 2e due to OCD, anxiety disorder, and borderline Asperger's.

What is "borderline" Asperger's? My kid with the 155 IQ has Asperger's and I've never heard this...

DS is in elementary school at a charter. Not bored or any other issues even though his NT classmates are not geniuses.

Same. Our developmental pediatrician said that he was 2 points shy of the label. That's borderline.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:White men most certainly can sue if they're discriminated against on the basis of their race or sex.

ut

People can sue for anything... But anti discrimination laws don't apply to them.

Yes they do. A white man at a majority minority company or with a minority boss can sue for racial discrimination. A white man with a female boss can sue for sex discrimination. Most white men over 40 sue for age discrimination. But these laws apply across the board. IDEA does not and should not.

WTF.

Do you think IDEA was created by DCPS? What is wrong with folk, really!!!!

Anonymous wrote:PP but isn't it against the law for public school system to not serve the needs of each student? If severaly disabled students are being sent to private schools (DCPS used to do this more often than people realize), then shouldnt DCPS be legally required to send the most gifted students to adademically rigorous private schools as well?

The law says you have to be able to access the curriculum and pass. If you need more time, a different strategy or a different environment to succeed (pass), you can use your IEP that way. If you are gifted and need a greater challenge, you are already passing.

Your child required enrichment.

The state of FL does have gifted IEPs, but they are not the same as an IEP for a disability like blindness.

Check out the center at William and Mary. Lots of gifted kids are also in need of special socio-emotional care (they feel chronically alone because some have a hard time making friends that get them). W&M is doing great research in this field. I considered a move to Williamsburg!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My point (it was my post) was that these kids are clearly NOT disabled. I was asking, are these kids "special needs?" People confuse the two, and I think sometimes deliberately. It really obfuscates the issue, which is that there is a group of children who will never be taught by DCPS, because they are considered "excessively privileged" already. Many of these kids' families cannot afford to take the measures necessary to care for their educational needs, so the kids just ride along on their own. Some succeed, some don't.

Their numbers are very small, so they have no real political clout. They have no "disability" status, so they have no real legal clout. While IDEA itself may be the wrong choice of programs, there is no sound reason to go about shooting down proposals because they were slightly misdirected. Instead, it makes a whole lot more sense to understand what we can, so that we can redirect those proposals more productively.

The reason everyone is shooting down your proposal is because using IDEA won't work for your purpose... so you can go about redirecting your energies into channels that will work instead of wasting your time.

Once again, it was not my proposal, nor am I defending it. I'm just listening to those who proposed it, because I agree with the intent. The use of IDEA is obviously not correct (legally), but the idea is right. You may be an extremist, but I am not. I understand both sides, and choose a middle path.