Anonymous wrote:"I believe in building a relationship with my Creator. That is what my kids will have to do as well."


There's the indoctrination part: I "believe" and my kids will "have to."

Are you being a smart ass? I am genuinely asking this question. "Have to do" as in I cannot build a relationship for them, not as in 'that is what I required of them'. And if you come back with some smart ass response about the improper usage of "have to"...

As I stated earlier, the word "indoctrination" may be used accurately as you interpret the rearing of children by these particular posters, but does not support the "discussion" you had described upthread. There is no good way to use it if you expect others to engage you on a mutually respectful level.

The word does not sting me. I am not indoctrinating my children. I am raising them in a family that holds faith in high regards. Let's imagine we do keep faith out of our parenting completely. What you're saying is that if my kids become adults of deep faith then that's fine, and if they become adults with no faith then fine. But if we (my spouse and I) conduct our lives as adults guided by faith and our dependent children notice this and ask questions and we answer to the best of our abilities with love and respect for others we are still doing them a disservice?

I don't understand being asked as a parent to step back and raise them without something we see as important on the off chance that something will stick that wasn't completely organic to them. We also emphasize a healthy diet and exercise -- is that bad? Why can't my kids learn on their own whether they want to eat less produce and more Velveeta by the bowl.

It seems to me you're coming from a place where religion is inherently bad or dangerous and children must be protected from it until they are strong enough to repel it on their own.

I may be off-base, but harping on your justification for the word "indoctrination" just seems odd to me.

At no point have I said that you (or anyone) should remove faith from parenting or your lives, or that you shouldn't discuss it with your children, have them participate in it, etc.

I objected to the way a few parents described how they are handling it - and I described that as creepy and indoctrination. How I describe the way those particular parents are handling it (and I wasn't the only one to react to it), is unlikely to change how those parents do it. But if by pointing out that those examples are going to extremes, I might cause other parents to look at those practices in a new light, then I'd call that a good thing.

But to go with your diet and exercise example, if your child goes through a phase where they refuse to eat vegetables, do you force them in their mouth, or make them sit at the table with the vegetables on the plate and make it a battle of wills, or do you figure out another way to get them to eat a balanced diet?

Going back to the example someone else used with the violin, if you loved the violin and it enriched your life, but your kids hated you for making you take violin lessons, would you keep forcing it, or would you maybe take a step back and see what it is about the violin that enriches your life, and try to find something your children love that would achieve the same thing?

If faith is important to you and central to your family, that's wonderful. The question is whether you are trying to force it onto your kids, as it's clear some of the prior posters are, or are you encouraging their growth. Are you trying to force them onto a path of your choice, or are you supporting them in finding their own way? And if they chose a path that is different from the one that works for you, are you communicating a message that you will support them in their choice, or are you communicating a message that if they chose differently from you, they risk sacrificing their relationship with you?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The issue is not being made or forced to believe in God, by God, but of God making it easy or natural to believe in him.

Instead, it seems like it's natural to some, but very difficult or impossible for others. in Some cases, parents trying very hard, can't make it happen.

THis is free will, I suppose -- but it seems like free will to go to hell -- which doesn't seem like a very good option for a loving God to provide.

15:14 here again. You have a good point. But it all depends on your idea of Hell. I don't think Hell is a physical place, I think it is existing outside of the presence of God. Not the traditional Christian belief, and I am ok with that. As for free will, God avails himself to us, but sometimes our misperceptions of God is what blocks us from having that authentic relationship. We take other people's misinterpretation of God's word and try to relate to that and it has us all messed up and wondering why we don't see Him in our lives. I say you have to continually seek Him and he will make Himself known to you.

Again, it seems like God is making it hard --"you have to continually seek him" -- why? and how do you know that? It seems quite easy for some people to know that God is with them. It seems personality-based more than anything else.

The way I see it is that we don't have to continually seek Him but by doing so gives us a deeper understanding and a deeper peace. God is God and is going to go on with or without me trying to connect to Him, but it is what He wants and I benefit from the relationship.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The issue is not being made or forced to believe in God, by God, but of God making it easy or natural to believe in him.

Instead, it seems like it's natural to some, but very difficult or impossible for others. in Some cases, parents trying very hard, can't make it happen.

THis is free will, I suppose -- but it seems like free will to go to hell -- which doesn't seem like a very good option for a loving God to provide.

15:14 here again. You have a good point. But it all depends on your idea of Hell. I don't think Hell is a physical place, I think it is existing outside of the presence of God. Not the traditional Christian belief, and I am ok with that. As for free will, God avails himself to us, but sometimes our misperceptions of God is what blocks us from having that authentic relationship. We take other people's misinterpretation of God's word and try to relate to that and it has us all messed up and wondering why we don't see Him in our lives. I say you have to continually seek Him and he will make Himself known to you.

Again, it seems like God is making it hard --"you have to continually seek him" -- why? and how do you know that? It seems quite easy for some people to know that God is with them. It seems personality-based more than anything else.

Continually seek as in seek to continue to know Him, just like you continue to know friends, spouses, etc. -- relationships are continually growing and evolving. Plus, spiritually speaking I believe, according to the Bible, God is growing you, directing your steps, so I want to get greater revelation and understanding of Him and his purpose for my life. He will direct your steps. It's not like going to the Eiffel Tower, ok been there, done that...seen it ...there is nothing more to know. With God there is always more to know, learn, understand and grow in.

"I believe in building a relationship with my Creator. That is what my kids will have to do as well."


There's the indoctrination part: I "believe" and my kids will "have to."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The issue is not being made or forced to believe in God, by God, but of God making it easy or natural to believe in him.

Instead, it seems like it's natural to some, but very difficult or impossible for others. in Some cases, parents trying very hard, can't make it happen.

THis is free will, I suppose -- but it seems like free will to go to hell -- which doesn't seem like a very good option for a loving God to provide.

15:14 here again. You have a good point. But it all depends on your idea of Hell. I don't think Hell is a physical place, I think it is existing outside of the presence of God. Not the traditional Christian belief, and I am ok with that. As for free will, God avails himself to us, but sometimes our misperceptions of God is what blocks us from having that authentic relationship. We take other people's misinterpretation of God's word and try to relate to that and it has us all messed up and wondering why we don't see Him in our lives. I say you have to continually seek Him and he will make Himself known to you.

Again, it seems like God is making it hard --"you have to continually seek him" -- why? and how do you know that? It seems quite easy for some people to know that God is with them. It seems personality-based more than anything else.

I am not making anyone believe anything, I am living out my beliefs and my kid(s) see that because they live with me. I am not constantly drilling into my kid 'you have to believe in God' and then send them to 50 different faith based activities to try to convince them to belive. That is not authentic and will not work. I believe in God as real presence, existence, not as an abstract concept. I believe in building a relationship with my Creator. That is what my kids will have to do as well. And they will see how their parents do it, that is the example we are setting. I think you do not have an understanding of faith, God and what that means. You are making a lot of assumptions that are just not true, at least for a lot of people. You do not believe in God, which is fine, but that does not mean that because I do I am "indoctrinating" my kid, it does not necessarily work that way.

Sigh. We've gotten deep enough into the thread that I think people are skipping the early pages.

I've been responding consistently to several early posters who described ways they were handling the spiritual education of their kids. One discussed a practice in her church of making sure there are at least 5 other adults focused on the child's faith education to make sure their faith doesn't slip, a few others discussed how important it is to make God the 24/7 center of your home life so that your children are constantly focused on faith, and another discussed how her kids hate going to church but she forces them anyway because they go to "worship God" and it's just too bad that they don't get a warm fuzzy out of it.

Those things I call bad spiritual education, and those are the kinds of practices that lead to kids feeling like they can't question, that they are at risk of losing family/friends unless they conform, and the kids end of hating religion.

So, I keep coming back to the question of what parents are trying to achieve. If you are trying to force your children to believe exactly what you believe and practice the religion exactly the way you practice it, and if you do it in a way that tries to force your children to conform, then, well, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

If, on the other hand, you are trying to give your child an educational basis for evaluating what he/she believes, and are setting an example through your own behavior of how your child can have a relationship with God, but allowing him/her to come to it on their own terms and in their own way, and if you're ok with whatever they chose for that relationship, then that's great.

A lot depends on the message your children are hearing from you - and, as they say, sometimes the things you do speak so loudly that I can't hear a word you say.

From M-W:

in·doc·tri·nate transitive verb \in-?däk-tr?-?n?t\
: to teach (someone) to fully accept the ideas, opinions, and beliefs of a particular group and to not consider other ideas, opinions, and beliefs

Well we also talk about other religions and belief systems so we are 100% for certain NOT indoctrinating. Phew!

Anonymous wrote:

Wow -- you went wayyyyy off the mark here. You do realize that folks can send their kids to all kinds of Church activities, Church services, pray at home, talk about God, etc. and never, ever, ever say or imply that if they do not believe in God that they will be ostracized. As a matter of fact, as a Christian that is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what I believe and teach my child. Just for the record there is wide, wide berth between living a life of faith and being David Koresh.
Dannggggg!

I absolutely realize this, and I agree with you. Many parents provide a healthy spiritual education for their children. There's a difference between sending your children to those classes/activities because they are a good option for the child, and sending them to those classes/activities because you don't want them exposed to other non-believers or other things that might distract them from what you want them to believe.

As I said in my last paragraph,

Ask yourself, "What happens if my child chooses a different spiritual path or decides not to believe?" If your answer is, that's fine with me, as long as he/she is happy and healthy, that's great! If your answer is something different, then you might want to look at what's driving you that way, and why you're putting so much emphasis on trying to cause your children to believe something specific, rather than trying to give them the framework to make their own choices.

If you look at what you're doing for your children's spiritual and religious education and it's intended to educate them and give them a framework for behavior and making their own choices in the future - great!

But you should look at the message your children are receiving - not the one you think you're sending.

And what message is that? Is that a general commentary, because if it is I think all parents, religious or not, need to do this gut-check on a regular basis. OR are you saying that looking at the message you are sending as a way of saying ' you think you are not indoctrinating, but that is exactly what you are doing" -- which did you mean?

Anonymous wrote:I'm not trying to play gotcha. I'm trying to distinguish different parenting approaches to spirituality and religious education.

If you don't like the term indoctrination for the subset of practices I'm specifically calling out, then explain why the term isn't appropriate and why my reaction to it is wrong.

I've been consistent about which practices I've called indoctrination and, as I also keep noting, there are parents involved in this conversation who take a much more open ended and, I would say, respectful, approach to their children's spiritual development and religious education.

If you think the parents using the methods I've called indoctrination are actually doing something open minded that supports their children's education and spiritual growth - whatever path those children chose, then I'm open to hearing how I've misinterpreted what seems to be a dedicated effort to cause their children to believe exactly what, and in the way, that their parents believe.

If, on the other hand, you just don't like the word because you don't like the way it feels when it's applied to what you're doing with your kids, then perhaps you need to look at why the word stings, not the word itself.

As I stated earlier, the word "indoctrination" may be used accurately as you interpret the rearing of children by these particular posters, but does not support the "discussion" you had described upthread. There is no good way to use it if you expect others to engage you on a mutually respectful level.

The word does not sting me. I am not indoctrinating my children. I am raising them in a family that holds faith in high regards. Let's imagine we do keep faith out of our parenting completely. What you're saying is that if my kids become adults of deep faith then that's fine, and if they become adults with no faith then fine. But if we (my spouse and I) conduct our lives as adults guided by faith and our dependent children notice this and ask questions and we answer to the best of our abilities with love and respect for others we are still doing them a disservice?

I don't understand being asked as a parent to step back and raise them without something we see as important on the off chance that something will stick that wasn't completely organic to them. We also emphasize a healthy diet and exercise -- is that bad? Why can't my kids learn on their own whether they want to eat less produce and more Velveeta by the bowl.

It seems to me you're coming from a place where religion is inherently bad or dangerous and children must be protected from it until they are strong enough to repel it on their own.

I may be off-base, but harping on your justification for the word "indoctrination" just seems odd to me.

Anonymous wrote:The issue is not being made or forced to believe in God, by God, but of God making it easy or natural to believe in him.

Instead, it seems like it's natural to some, but very difficult or impossible for others. in Some cases, parents trying very hard, can't make it happen.

THis is free will, I suppose -- but it seems like free will to go to hell -- which doesn't seem like a very good option for a loving God to provide.

15:14 here again. You have a good point. But it all depends on your idea of Hell. I don't think Hell is a physical place, I think it is existing outside of the presence of God. Not the traditional Christian belief, and I am ok with that. As for free will, God avails himself to us, but sometimes our misperceptions of God is what blocks us from having that authentic relationship. We take other people's misinterpretation of God's word and try to relate to that and it has us all messed up and wondering why we don't see Him in our lives. I say you have to continually seek Him and he will make Himself known to you.

Anonymous wrote:We live together and learn from one another. By using divisive verbiage we are accomplishing nothing. OK, you are arguing that technically the word indoctrination could be applied, but should it when we're trying to see one another's point of view? This is a basic respectful discussion, is it not?

I'm not saying your techniques aren't effective for getting your point across, but if I'm just trying to talk to you about our stances than your continually playing "gotcha" with me is not moving the ball forward.

Perhaps you call it "devisive verbiage" because it angers you. I call it indoctrination because that's what it is. It's not meant to be devisive, just descriptive. I' not sure what to say to soften it, while still being accurately descriptive.

For instance, if you take an academic course in "World religions" you are being educated, not indoctrinated. If you go to Catholic Sunday school, you're being taught to believe in the doctrines of the catholic church. You are being indoctrinated.

Anonymous wrote:I'm not trying to play gotcha. I'm trying to distinguish different parenting approaches to spirituality and religious education.

If you don't like the term indoctrination for the subset of practices I'm specifically calling out, then explain why the term isn't appropriate and why my reaction to it is wrong.

I've been consistent about which practices I've called indoctrination and, as I also keep noting, there are parents involved in this conversation who take a much more open ended and, I would say, respectful, approach to their children's spiritual development and religious education.

If you think the parents using the methods I've called indoctrination are actually doing something open minded that supports their children's education and spiritual growth - whatever path those children chose, then I'm open to hearing how I've misinterpreted what seems to be a dedicated effort to cause their children to believe exactly what, and in the way, that their parents believe.

If, on the other hand, you just don't like the word because you don't like the way it feels when it's applied to what you're doing with your kids, then perhaps you need to look at why the word stings, not the word itself.

15:14 here, not sure if you are responding to me or not. I will say this, I think to a great degree we may be having 2 different discussions, or at least 2 different approaches. It seems as if, and I may be wrong, that your approach to the topic at hand is a 'right or wrong', it is 'this or that' approach. You want to have someone 'prove' why "indoctrination" is not an accurate description of the faith education in their family. I am not interested in proving anyone wrong (or right), I am not interested in defending what I do or believe. I think faith is just a matter of that, faith. It is a matter of how you see God and not what you or anyone else can prove or disprove. I could list a bunch of things to me "prove" God's presence in my life, and 100 people could discount each and everyone of them as poppycock, not withstanding the measures of science or intellect. I could not care less, not worth going there for me.

Wow -- you went wayyyyy off the mark here. You do realize that folks can send their kids to all kinds of Church activities, Church services, pray at home, talk about God, etc. and never, ever, ever say or imply that if they do not believe in God that they will be ostracized. As a matter of fact, as a Christian that is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what I believe and teach my child. Just for the record there is wide, wide berth between living a life of faith and being David Koresh.
Dannggggg!

I absolutely realize this, and I agree with you. Many parents provide a healthy spiritual education for their children. There's a difference between sending your children to those classes/activities because they are a good option for the child, and sending them to those classes/activities because you don't want them exposed to other non-believers or other things that might distract them from what you want them to believe.

As I said in my last paragraph,

Ask yourself, "What happens if my child chooses a different spiritual path or decides not to believe?" If your answer is, that's fine with me, as long as he/she is happy and healthy, that's great! If your answer is something different, then you might want to look at what's driving you that way, and why you're putting so much emphasis on trying to cause your children to believe something specific, rather than trying to give them the framework to make their own choices.

If you look at what you're doing for your children's spiritual and religious education and it's intended to educate them and give them a framework for behavior and making their own choices in the future - great!

But you should look at the message your children are receiving - not the one you think you're sending.

The issue is not being made or forced to believe in God, by God, but of God making it easy or natural to believe in him.

Instead, it seems like it's natural to some, but very difficult or impossible for others. in Some cases, parents trying very hard, can't make it happen.

THis is free will, I suppose -- but it seems like free will to go to hell -- which doesn't seem like a very good option for a loving God to provide.