Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I guess I can see what the concern is to some extent. I am not South Asian, but I see how some of my South Asian friends and colleagues struggle with some of the social aspects of US professional life. For a couple of my colleagues who immigrated as adults, it's the fact that they struggle with American humor, and also with nuances like the fact that it's not okay to overtly brag in WASP culture, but you have to figure out how to highlight your achievements subtly. When you mix that together with the subliminal racism that pervades US life, it can be a professional hindrance.

For a few of my second generation acquaintances, their parents gave them the feeling that nothing they did was quite good enough, and this has given them an edge to their personalities that other people in the office want to avoid.

These anecdotes are by no means universal, but the immigrant experience in the US, in which the second generation and successive generations assimilate into the US differently than the first is nothing new, nor is it unique to Asian-Americans.

How does this manifest in your office? Just curious? I am one of these second gen types who constantly questions whether I'm good enough. I am always the one who has to take on one more project or say that I don't need anyone to help me to prove that I can do it -- someone recently told me it is a sign of imposter syndrome but I have no idea. Except for the preceding 2 things (which tend to help out my colleagues as I can get things done), I'd like to think I keep all my doubt to myself, but I'm curious as to what you're seeing that you try to avoid.

If you are self-aware enough to be asking this question, you probably don't have a problem.

+1.

Sorry -- the "+1" was for "If you are self-aware enough to be asking this question, you probably don't have a problem."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I guess I can see what the concern is to some extent. I am not South Asian, but I see how some of my South Asian friends and colleagues struggle with some of the social aspects of US professional life. For a couple of my colleagues who immigrated as adults, it's the fact that they struggle with American humor, and also with nuances like the fact that it's not okay to overtly brag in WASP culture, but you have to figure out how to highlight your achievements subtly. When you mix that together with the subliminal racism that pervades US life, it can be a professional hindrance.

For a few of my second generation acquaintances, their parents gave them the feeling that nothing they did was quite good enough, and this has given them an edge to their personalities that other people in the office want to avoid.

These anecdotes are by no means universal, but the immigrant experience in the US, in which the second generation and successive generations assimilate into the US differently than the first is nothing new, nor is it unique to Asian-Americans.

How does this manifest in your office? Just curious? I am one of these second gen types who constantly questions whether I'm good enough. I am always the one who has to take on one more project or say that I don't need anyone to help me to prove that I can do it -- someone recently told me it is a sign of imposter syndrome but I have no idea. Except for the preceding 2 things (which tend to help out my colleagues as I can get things done), I'd like to think I keep all my doubt to myself, but I'm curious as to what you're seeing that you try to avoid.

If you are self-aware enough to be asking this question, you probably don't have a problem.

+1.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:17:39 on pg. 2-3 of this thread hit it on the head. But it is more of a risk and numbers game. What is the least riskiest way to ensure that your child succeeds in life? Sure there are Indians in non-traditional careers that own businesses, and other things. But being a doctor, lawyer, or engineer ensures that you have a high-paying, low risk job. Indians, and Asians in general, believe that education is the key to success in life. In order to achieve more and be more successful then your parents, you need to achieve the highest quality education for yourself. By getting the best grades and attending Ivy League or the best colleges, the chances of you succeeding in life are a lot higher. Indians don't want "middle of the road" for their kids, they want the best. Education is the tool that gets them there.

Not to mention that Indians and Asians are doing this also to groom their kids for marriage. When their kid goes out into the world and is of marriageable age, would people be attracted to someone who graduated from an outstanding college with an outstanding career, or a middle of the road kid? I am not saying that this is right, I am explaining the mentality of the culture.

I totally agree with this. I feel like I was groomed to be a strong marriage candidate. I met my DH in grad school. If you are at a top college and grad school, it is a lot easier to meet and marry someone at a higher level.

And the result? Happier? Made the world a better place?

Anonymous wrote:17:39 on pg. 2-3 of this thread hit it on the head. But it is more of a risk and numbers game. What is the least riskiest way to ensure that your child succeeds in life? Sure there are Indians in non-traditional careers that own businesses, and other things. But being a doctor, lawyer, or engineer ensures that you have a high-paying, low risk job. Indians, and Asians in general, believe that education is the key to success in life. In order to achieve more and be more successful then your parents, you need to achieve the highest quality education for yourself. By getting the best grades and attending Ivy League or the best colleges, the chances of you succeeding in life are a lot higher. Indians don't want "middle of the road" for their kids, they want the best. Education is the tool that gets them there.

Not to mention that Indians and Asians are doing this also to groom their kids for marriage. When their kid goes out into the world and is of marriageable age, would people be attracted to someone who graduated from an outstanding college with an outstanding career, or a middle of the road kid? I am not saying that this is right, I am explaining the mentality of the culture.

I totally agree with this. I feel like I was groomed to be a strong marriage candidate. I met my DH in grad school. If you are at a top college and grad school, it is a lot easier to meet and marry someone at a higher level.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I guess I can see what the concern is to some extent. I am not South Asian, but I see how some of my South Asian friends and colleagues struggle with some of the social aspects of US professional life. For a couple of my colleagues who immigrated as adults, it's the fact that they struggle with American humor, and also with nuances like the fact that it's not okay to overtly brag in WASP culture, but you have to figure out how to highlight your achievements subtly. When you mix that together with the subliminal racism that pervades US life, it can be a professional hindrance.

For a few of my second generation acquaintances, their parents gave them the feeling that nothing they did was quite good enough, and this has given them an edge to their personalities that other people in the office want to avoid.

These anecdotes are by no means universal, but the immigrant experience in the US, in which the second generation and successive generations assimilate into the US differently than the first is nothing new, nor is it unique to Asian-Americans.

How does this manifest in your office? Just curious? I am one of these second gen types who constantly questions whether I'm good enough. I am always the one who has to take on one more project or say that I don't need anyone to help me to prove that I can do it -- someone recently told me it is a sign of imposter syndrome but I have no idea. Except for the preceding 2 things (which tend to help out my colleagues as I can get things done), I'd like to think I keep all my doubt to myself, but I'm curious as to what you're seeing that you try to avoid.

If you are self-aware enough to be asking this question, you probably don't have a problem. My observations are only anecdotal because people are individuals, and they will react to pressure differently. The people in my office who have this particular issue are bitter, and their feelings of inadequacy lead them to overcompensate by giving people unsolicited advice.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My two cents--

You work hard, that's hypersonic do it. If you want do every single non-academic thing (spend a day at the mall) then you cannot make time for sitting down to study. You prioritize your life to make time to study.

If you expect to do every single thing you want to do (spend Sundays watching ballgames, friday nights are movie nights, Monday, Wed are sports practice). Then ask yourself "How do I do it while not giving up anything?" then the answer is, you can't.

I felt like I had time to do both. Sports, clubs, hanging out with friends, etc. Academics were solid enough to get me into my college of choice but that last two percent isn't what makes or breaks you.

Think you're missing the point. In the stereotypical Indian families, "solid enough" is not good enough, and they do believe that the last 2% makes or breaks you. That last 2% is what keeps you from getting into an ivy/MIT/Caltech/wherever. That last 2% is what keeps you from being promoted at work; while a Caucasian person will get promoted at 100%, some Indian parents believe that their Indian kids will only be promoted if they are 102%. Same with college admissions -- esp with the over-representation of Asians at top colleges -- you won't get in if you aren't better than the majority applicants in a statistically significant way.

I think you have to grow up in this fear to truly understand it. Believe me I am living it right now, when my white friends are looking at me like I'm crazy for being SO worried about my job prospects given my degrees and experience.

Pp you quoted - I am Indian (parents immigrated) as it turns out, being a well rounded person who can connect with others easily, can converse on a wide range of subjects and comfortably speak in front of large groups was far more professionally (not to mention personally) valuable than that last two percent. my siblings and I have done far better professionally than my cousins or friends who were drilled into their books and we're motivated by fear.

Sorry for the typos - one more thing - while Indians absolutely face discrimination in the workplace, we also need to improve our networking and self promotion skills. How do you effectively promote yourself when you grow up feeling like you are never good enough and you constantly fear failure if you don't do everything exactly right?

The Chinese do it very effectively as have say the Jews or the Irish etc in earlier times. It has been the backbone of building a lasting community with influence. Chinese school Hebrew school seem to be better attended than Indian efforts

Anonymous wrote:I guess I can see what the concern is to some extent. I am not South Asian, but I see how some of my South Asian friends and colleagues struggle with some of the social aspects of US professional life. For a couple of my colleagues who immigrated as adults, it's the fact that they struggle with American humor, and also with nuances like the fact that it's not okay to overtly brag in WASP culture, but you have to figure out how to highlight your achievements subtly. When you mix that together with the subliminal racism that pervades US life, it can be a professional hindrance.

For a few of my second generation acquaintances, their parents gave them the feeling that nothing they did was quite good enough, and this has given them an edge to their personalities that other people in the office want to avoid.

These anecdotes are by no means universal, but the immigrant experience in the US, in which the second generation and successive generations assimilate into the US differently than the first is nothing new, nor is it unique to Asian-Americans.

How does this manifest in your office? Just curious? I am one of these second gen types who constantly questions whether I'm good enough. I am always the one who has to take on one more project or say that I don't need anyone to help me to prove that I can do it -- someone recently told me it is a sign of imposter syndrome but I have no idea. Except for the preceding 2 things (which tend to help out my colleagues as I can get things done), I'd like to think I keep all my doubt to myself, but I'm curious as to what you're seeing that you try to avoid.

The overt bragging thing is a HUGE social turnoff. So is assuming that you are the only one in the group who has poverty in your background.

I guess I can see what the concern is to some extent. I am not South Asian, but I see how some of my South Asian friends and colleagues struggle with some of the social aspects of US professional life. For a couple of my colleagues who immigrated as adults, it's the fact that they struggle with American humor, and also with nuances like the fact that it's not okay to overtly brag in WASP culture, but you have to figure out how to highlight your achievements subtly. When you mix that together with the subliminal racism that pervades US life, it can be a professional hindrance.

For a few of my second generation acquaintances, their parents gave them the feeling that nothing they did was quite good enough, and this has given them an edge to their personalities that other people in the office want to avoid.

These anecdotes are by no means universal, but the immigrant experience in the US, in which the second generation and successive generations assimilate into the US differently than the first is nothing new, nor is it unique to Asian-Americans.

So, OP, do you have your step by step guide for child rearing now? Did you learn anything from this thread?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My two cents--

You work hard, that's hypersonic do it. If you want do every single non-academic thing (spend a day at the mall) then you cannot make time for sitting down to study. You prioritize your life to make time to study.

If you expect to do every single thing you want to do (spend Sundays watching ballgames, friday nights are movie nights, Monday, Wed are sports practice). Then ask yourself "How do I do it while not giving up anything?" then the answer is, you can't.

I felt like I had time to do both. Sports, clubs, hanging out with friends, etc. Academics were solid enough to get me into my college of choice but that last two percent isn't what makes or breaks you.

Think you're missing the point. In the stereotypical Indian families, "solid enough" is not good enough, and they do believe that the last 2% makes or breaks you. That last 2% is what keeps you from getting into an ivy/MIT/Caltech/wherever. That last 2% is what keeps you from being promoted at work; while a Caucasian person will get promoted at 100%, some Indian parents believe that their Indian kids will only be promoted if they are 102%. Same with college admissions -- esp with the over-representation of Asians at top colleges -- you won't get in if you aren't better than the majority applicants in a statistically significant way.

I think you have to grow up in this fear to truly understand it. Believe me I am living it right now, when my white friends are looking at me like I'm crazy for being SO worried about my job prospects given my degrees and experience.

Pp you quoted - I am Indian (parents immigrated) as it turns out, being a well rounded person who can connect with others easily, can converse on a wide range of subjects and comfortably speak in front of large groups was far more professionally (not to mention personally) valuable than that last two percent. my siblings and I have done far better professionally than my cousins or friends who were drilled into their books and we're motivated by fear.

Sorry for the typos - one more thing - while Indians absolutely face discrimination in the workplace, we also need to improve our networking and self promotion skills. How do you effectively promote yourself when you grow up feeling like you are never good enough and you constantly fear failure if you don't do everything exactly right?

Definitely agree with you. I think the Indians who do "better" -- don't mean that objectively -- are those who have the great grades etc. that the parents wanted but are also well socialized, can speak effectively (I don't mean accents since these kids are being raised here - but confidence, being interesting/charming), have friends who can "help" them on things that parents don't know about. I'd like to think that I've worked hard to be one of these Indians -- my parents only thought of my ivy education, and I quickly realized that middle of the pack students do quite well if they are sociable and tried to emulate lots of those qualities. It has gotten me pretty far in my career, though I'm not going to lie and say there is no discrimination bc there still is. People just don't want to see Indians in certain roles, no matter how many degrees they may have (not saying it's what AAs face bc let's face it -- there are lots of Indians who are achieving prominent roles, but not everyone is ok with it).

2nd gen Indians get socialized well and are encouraged to do a ton of extra-curricular activities by their parents. By the time the 2nd gen Indians become adults a few things happen around them -
1) they have less of a chip on their shoulder as they see themselves as Americans and have an expectation of equality
2) the economic situation of their parents change (years of frugal living) - and they are well -off if not wealthy,
3) Their accents and mannerisms are more American and they understand a lot of cultural contexts (sports, TV etc) that their parents did not.
4) They start taking note of how the parents of their American friends do not help out or are divorced etc, and there is a lot more appreciation of their parents and culture.
5) They are much more comfortable being bi-cultural and less apologetic about being Indians.
6) They start to reap the rewards of a great career that they were made to work so hard for.

So, yes, I find ABCDs (2nd gen Indians) more successful and social. And that is the reason that I harbor the hope that they will begin to network more and promote and mentor each other more because they do not have the hang-ups of their immigrant parents.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My two cents--

You work hard, that's hypersonic do it. If you want do every single non-academic thing (spend a day at the mall) then you cannot make time for sitting down to study. You prioritize your life to make time to study.

If you expect to do every single thing you want to do (spend Sundays watching ballgames, friday nights are movie nights, Monday, Wed are sports practice). Then ask yourself "How do I do it while not giving up anything?" then the answer is, you can't.

I felt like I had time to do both. Sports, clubs, hanging out with friends, etc. Academics were solid enough to get me into my college of choice but that last two percent isn't what makes or breaks you.

Think you're missing the point. In the stereotypical Indian families, "solid enough" is not good enough, and they do believe that the last 2% makes or breaks you. That last 2% is what keeps you from getting into an ivy/MIT/Caltech/wherever. That last 2% is what keeps you from being promoted at work; while a Caucasian person will get promoted at 100%, some Indian parents believe that their Indian kids will only be promoted if they are 102%. Same with college admissions -- esp with the over-representation of Asians at top colleges -- you won't get in if you aren't better than the majority applicants in a statistically significant way.

I think you have to grow up in this fear to truly understand it. Believe me I am living it right now, when my white friends are looking at me like I'm crazy for being SO worried about my job prospects given my degrees and experience.

Pp you quoted - I am Indian (parents immigrated) as it turns out, being a well rounded person who can connect with others easily, can converse on a wide range of subjects and comfortably speak in front of large groups was far more professionally (not to mention personally) valuable than that last two percent. my siblings and I have done far better professionally than my cousins or friends who were drilled into their books and we're motivated by fear.

Sorry for the typos - one more thing - while Indians absolutely face discrimination in the workplace, we also need to improve our networking and self promotion skills. How do you effectively promote yourself when you grow up feeling like you are never good enough and you constantly fear failure if you don't do everything exactly right?

Definitely agree with you. I think the Indians who do "better" -- don't mean that objectively -- are those who have the great grades etc. that the parents wanted but are also well socialized, can speak effectively (I don't mean accents since these kids are being raised here - but confidence, being interesting/charming), have friends who can "help" them on things that parents don't know about. I'd like to think that I've worked hard to be one of these Indians -- my parents only thought of my ivy education, and I quickly realized that middle of the pack students do quite well if they are sociable and tried to emulate lots of those qualities. It has gotten me pretty far in my career, though I'm not going to lie and say there is no discrimination bc there still is. People just don't want to see Indians in certain roles, no matter how many degrees they may have (not saying it's what AAs face bc let's face it -- there are lots of Indians who are achieving prominent roles, but not everyone is ok with it).

Anonymous wrote:

Curious -- do you work outside the home full- time and have the typical Washington region commute of 40 minutes each way (so an additional ~6 hours away from home)?

My observation here and in NYC is that most East Asian mothers (currently aged 55-70) are SAHM or help out at the restaurant while kids are in school only. I can't help but wonder if this isn't a key factor.

I grew up in an affluent suburb of Chicago, and I have to think that parents who can afford to live in areas like that (or Fairfax county) are dual professional families. I knew plenty of Chinese mothers in families where both parents were professors, or both were doctors. How did they demand excellence? They just MADE it work. They had their kids in a million activities and tutoring. They didn't worry as much about getting enough sleep as western parents. They spent all weekend shuttling kids from one tutoring activity to another. They didn't let their kids go out on weekend nights in high school. I mean, jeez, Amy Chua and her husband are both tenured law professors at Yale and she somehow finds the time to tiger parent.

I think there are many parents today (of different ethnicities) in the DC area who are dual professional families and are making it work. I know I'm one of those families. It's exhausting, but isn't it worth it?

17:39 on pg. 2-3 of this thread hit it on the head. But it is more of a risk and numbers game. What is the least riskiest way to ensure that your child succeeds in life? Sure there are Indians in non-traditional careers that own businesses, and other things. But being a doctor, lawyer, or engineer ensures that you have a high-paying, low risk job. Indians, and Asians in general, believe that education is the key to success in life. In order to achieve more and be more successful then your parents, you need to achieve the highest quality education for yourself. By getting the best grades and attending Ivy League or the best colleges, the chances of you succeeding in life are a lot higher. Indians don't want "middle of the road" for their kids, they want the best. Education is the tool that gets them there.

Not to mention that Indians and Asians are doing this also to groom their kids for marriage. When their kid goes out into the world and is of marriageable age, would people be attracted to someone who graduated from an outstanding college with an outstanding career, or a middle of the road kid? I am not saying that this is right, I am explaining the mentality of the culture.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My two cents--

You work hard, that's hypersonic do it. If you want do every single non-academic thing (spend a day at the mall) then you cannot make time for sitting down to study. You prioritize your life to make time to study.

If you expect to do every single thing you want to do (spend Sundays watching ballgames, friday nights are movie nights, Monday, Wed are sports practice). Then ask yourself "How do I do it while not giving up anything?" then the answer is, you can't.

I felt like I had time to do both. Sports, clubs, hanging out with friends, etc. Academics were solid enough to get me into my college of choice but that last two percent isn't what makes or breaks you.

Think you're missing the point. In the stereotypical Indian families, "solid enough" is not good enough, and they do believe that the last 2% makes or breaks you. That last 2% is what keeps you from getting into an ivy/MIT/Caltech/wherever. That last 2% is what keeps you from being promoted at work; while a Caucasian person will get promoted at 100%, some Indian parents believe that their Indian kids will only be promoted if they are 102%. Same with college admissions -- esp with the over-representation of Asians at top colleges -- you won't get in if you aren't better than the majority applicants in a statistically significant way.

I think you have to grow up in this fear to truly understand it. Believe me I am living it right now, when my white friends are looking at me like I'm crazy for being SO worried about my job prospects given my degrees and experience.

Pp you quoted - I am Indian (parents immigrated) as it turns out, being a well rounded person who can connect with others easily, can converse on a wide range of subjects and comfortably speak in front of large groups was far more professionally (not to mention personally) valuable than that last two percent. my siblings and I have done far better professionally than my cousins or friends who were drilled into their books and we're motivated by fear.

Sorry for the typos - one more thing - while Indians absolutely face discrimination in the workplace, we also need to improve our networking and self promotion skills. How do you effectively promote yourself when you grow up feeling like you are never good enough and you constantly fear failure if you don't do everything exactly right?