Anonymous wrote:I would not let someone as judgmental and clearly in need of therapy change my son's diapers. Just would not do it. We don't have a lot of judgmental psychos in our boys diapers. Just sayin'

Yes, this. It's astonishing this poster has any friends at all. Certainly, the second Judge Judy mentioned that was too bad that the other mother "mutilated" her son would be the end of the friendship -- and every parent in a several mile radius would know to avoid her like the plague.

Anonymous wrote:Re the "I don't hear circ'd men complaining" argument--what I hear is them not wanting to open the Pandora's box of being unsatisfied with their genitals. It's a combination of confirmation bias and choice-supportive bias, in cognitive science terms. Since almost nobody gets circ'd as an adult, almost nobody has any clue what the difference really is.

Well, isn't that convenient. "Men don't complain because they don't want to be upset about their own circumcision, and because they don't know any better. It they just thought about it, though, they definitely would be upset! I just know it!"

And with that, you wave away the fact that there are virtually no circumcised men who complain about circumcision. Doesn't mean a thing. Mostly because it doesn't support your preferred narrative.

In "cognitive science terms," your logic sucks.

I'm Jewish and I think calling anti-circers anti-semitic is really reaching. Like saying that anti-vaccinators are all vegan. Maybe there are a very very few people motivated by that, but as a whole, it is a real misreading of the position.

People who are saying that opposing circumcision is anti-religion here don't get one fundamental thing. "Corrective rape" is actually a religious act in some countries. Do you support the right of someone to do this? Why not? Because you think it is wrong and harmful whereas you think circumcising is not. We disagree. Not on whether or not your religion gives you license to do ANYTHING, but whether or not circumcision is harmful.

So unless you think that your religion literally gives you the right to do ANYTHING to your child, then your "stop being anti-semitic" argument does not hold up. We think you are wrong. Inasmuch as I think people who try to use their religion as a shield for practices I think are wrong or immoral, yes, I'm anti that. Anti-semitic, though? No.

Where we disagree is whether or not circumcision is truly harmful. If you think it's not harmful at all, then of course you think your religion should protect your ability to do it and others may agree or support you in it. However, if you believe it is wrong, then you don't allow someone's religion to carry the day here.

The person who said do you also have sex through a hole in a sheet was out of line, and clearly was aiming to ridicule orthodox Jews. Having sex through a sheet may or may not be ridiculous, but it's an act between consenting adults. Interfering with that would be inappropriate. However, interfering with one's intent to lop off part of a child's penis due to religious custom or edict is appropriate.

That's why different institutions have argued that there are medical reasons to do this and thus the choice in the procedure should be left up to parents; in order to protect the religious custom, there must be another reason. Otherwise, it's not harmless. Clearly, you're removing a part of a child's body.

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Anonymous wrote:
Increasingly Jews aren't circumcising. There was a thread on that here a couple of months ago. I suggest you look at it before trying to make this an anti-semetic issue which it IS NOT.

and good for them, but there still are many (most) that do (and there are many more mixed couples, especially around here). I think there is a large undercurrent of anti-semitism in this whole discussion on DCUM. I personally don't care what you do, and I wish the same respect would be given to everyone else.

Well, other than the US, the countries with the highest rates of circumcision are Muslim. Do you also think that people who are against cutting boys are prejudice against Muslims? I have to say that you are bat-shit crazy if you think that anyone here is saying anything against your religion. We are talking about a practice that is outdated and irrelevant in the modern day. Religions evolve and adapt - or they should. Many people use religion to justify being against same sex marriage. Do you think that saying they are wrong is prejudice against their religion?

This! I'm the one who used the stoning example and was accused of wanting to exterminate Jewish people and being an anti Semite. I guess I must also hate Muslims. Must explain why I married one.

Re the "I don't hear circ'd men complaining" argument--what I hear is them not wanting to open the Pandora's box of being unsatisfied with their genitals. It's a combination of confirmation bias and choice-supportive bias, in cognitive science terms. Since almost nobody gets circ'd as an adult, almost nobody has any clue what the difference really is.

Anonymous wrote:Why do I care? I care because it is an inhumane practice to do this routinely to newborn boys.

Do I raise it with you? No. But if it comes up, I will not sugarcoat my dismay.

How do I know? Like others have said, when you've had kids you'll realize that at some point you see pretty much all your friends changing diapers in front of you or helping with potty training. Other times, people mention it.

What happens then? I will notice your son's stubby scarred penis and I will flinch. I will try not to do this noticeably for your sake because, what's done is done, and for all I know you may now be better informed and regret it (like my in-laws). But I will feel sympathy for your child, just as I would if you mistreated him in another way.

I will think less of you. I will wonder how you came to that decision, as an educated, smart woman, who I obviously share some values with or we wouldn't be friends. I will feel a little sorry for you too. Because you are either willfully ignorant and have followed what you perceive to be the fashion and had cosmetic surgery on your newborn boy, or you are delusional and have believed the very scant and disputed evidence on the topic without having done any full research into the cultural basis of this.

And then, I feel thankful that I wasn't railroaded into doing this, by a husband, by a doctor, by in-laws or by society. I feel thankful that my boys each have their whole penis and that neither of them will feel bad about this as they get older. I feel bad that at some point, be it 5 or 10, 15 or 20 years from now, when this waning practice is widely believed as archaic you will realize that you made the wrong decision, that you were on the wrong side of this issue and that you will regret it.

This PP articulated exactly, EXACTLY how I feel.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Increasingly Jews aren't circumcising. There was a thread on that here a couple of months ago. I suggest you look at it before trying to make this an anti-semetic issue which it IS NOT.

and good for them, but there still are many (most) that do (and there are many more mixed couples, especially around here). I think there is a large undercurrent of anti-semitism in this whole discussion on DCUM. I personally don't care what you do, and I wish the same respect would be given to everyone else.

Well, other than the US, the countries with the highest rates of circumcision are Muslim. Do you also think that people who are against cutting boys are prejudice against Muslims? I have to say that you are bat-shit crazy if you think that anyone here is saying anything against your religion. We are talking about a practice that is outdated and irrelevant in the modern day. Religions evolve and adapt - or they should. Many people use religion to justify being against same sex marriage. Do you think that saying they are wrong is prejudice against their religion?

Also, I should add, if you are going to justify doing this, I find it much more reasonable when people do it for religious reasons than for faux health benefits. At least they are up front about their reasons. And it's much more palatable to hear that than "I wanted my kid to look like his dad". Sigh.

Anonymous wrote:This thread started out hostile (subject line is confrontational, even). It has since invoked the following things that are unrelated to a medical decision made by new parents:

child abuse
whether or not to vaccinate
whether people who do not vaccinate are crazy
child sexual abuse
Antisemitism as the reason people do not vaccinate

Even for the usual standards of crazy that this topic and this board demonstrate, that's pretty impressive.

People who don't vaccinate are crazy. Fact.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Increasingly Jews aren't circumcising. There was a thread on that here a couple of months ago. I suggest you look at it before trying to make this an anti-semetic issue which it IS NOT.

and good for them, but there still are many (most) that do (and there are many more mixed couples, especially around here). I think there is a large undercurrent of anti-semitism in this whole discussion on DCUM. I personally don't care what you do, and I wish the same respect would be given to everyone else.

Well, other than the US, the countries with the highest rates of circumcision are Muslim. Do you also think that people who are against cutting boys are prejudice against Muslims? I have to say that you are bat-shit crazy if you think that anyone here is saying anything against your religion. We are talking about a practice that is outdated and irrelevant in the modern day. Religions evolve and adapt - or they should. Many people use religion to justify being against same sex marriage. Do you think that saying they are wrong is prejudice against their religion?

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Anonymous wrote:You do realize you are talking to several posters, yes? What are you considering "histrionics"? Remember this is a cultural issue. If the discussion was about tattooing your newborn and some people vehemently disagreed with it would you say that they were unstable? What if it was about piercing your newborn's nose?

I think you should focus on raising your own child, not how others handle their response to their own cultures/religions. I guess I do not understand the Christian American fear of "the other".

I have a daughter, so (unlike the weirdly nosy PP), I do not have a dog in this fight. That said, I do not buy that this is in any way related to the "Christian American fear of the other" that you mention. What started as a religious practice is now basically the medical mainstream. If this was something that was purely cultural, it would approximately match the population doing it for religious reasons, which is not the case at all.

I was the PP who mentioned culture. I didn't mention religion. It is purely cultural (obviously religion is a part of culture, but that was not my primary point). That is the reason that it is common here in the US but not in any other westernized country. I suggest you read this: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2013/03/12/peds.2012-2896

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Anonymous wrote:Why don't we have millions of men running around now who are extremely scarred? It is interesting that rarely do fathers get so very hysterical about this issue, but the mother sure do! Quite odd to be that obsessed with your child's and other children's genitalia.

This is what I think every time I see one of these threads. Considering the vast majority of grown men...even teens...have been circd in this society, you would think there would be very known epidemic problems based in what the anti-circ team is saying. I have yet to hear of one grown man express any trauma over their circumcisions.

No one is saying that millions experience long term trauma. They are saying that they have been scarred and that part of their penis has been removed for cosmetic reasons and that it is not justifiable to put a newborn baby who is unable to consent through this process. Many men express regret that this was done to them and that number will only increase as the procedure becomes less common and as your children become the unusual ones (just like in the rest of the world).

This is primarily a women's board, that is why the majority of people posting here are women.

My husband is very happy his parents made the choice to circ him. What if yours wishes you had done the same? It is much more traumatic and risky to do it as an adult.

Really, the histrionics around this issue just isn't warranted. It really makes you sound unstable and crazy.

You do realize you are talking to several posters, yes? What are you considering "histrionics"? Remember this is a cultural issue. If the discussion was about tattooing your newborn and some people vehemently disagreed with it would you say that they were unstable? What if it was about piercing your newborn's nose?

The people who care what other parents do with respect to circing. All weirdos and unstable. There is a lot of overlap with that group and anti-vaxers.

Let's take a look at this:

Vaccinations -- many are evidence based and have saved lives.
Circumcision -- no compelling medical evidence.

I follow evidence based practice. My kids are vaccinated if there is research that backs that up (as there frequently, but not always is). My kids are not cut because there is no compelling reason do to it and many compelling reasons to leave them as perfect as they were born.

If you want to discuss vaccinations more thoroughly, I suggest you start your own thread.

Absolutely false that circs don't have medical value. You truly haven't done your research if you think this is true.

I am very familiar with the research and I would suggest that YOU in fact haven't done your research if you believe that there is compelling evidence of medical value to circumcision. I was also raised outside the US where, like most of the world, routine circumcision is virtually unheard of except for religious reasons, and am staggered that any sane person could believe that there are reasons to justify doing cosmetic surgery on a newborn child.

To answer the OP's question - I don't. A normal person doesn't.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Why don't we have millions of men running around now who are extremely scarred? It is interesting that rarely do fathers get so very hysterical about this issue, but the mother sure do! Quite odd to be that obsessed with your child's and other children's genitalia.

This is what I think every time I see one of these threads. Considering the vast majority of grown men...even teens...have been circd in this society, you would think there would be very known epidemic problems based in what the anti-circ team is saying. I have yet to hear of one grown man express any trauma over their circumcisions.

No one is saying that millions experience long term trauma. They are saying that they have been scarred and that part of their penis has been removed for cosmetic reasons and that it is not justifiable to put a newborn baby who is unable to consent through this process. Many men express regret that this was done to them and that number will only increase as the procedure becomes less common and as your children become the unusual ones (just like in the rest of the world).

This is primarily a women's board, that is why the majority of people posting here are women.

My husband is very happy his parents made the choice to circ him. What if yours wishes you had done the same? It is much more traumatic and risky to do it as an adult.

Really, the histrionics around this issue just isn't warranted. It really makes you sound unstable and crazy.

You do realize you are talking to several posters, yes? What are you considering "histrionics"? Remember this is a cultural issue. If the discussion was about tattooing your newborn and some people vehemently disagreed with it would you say that they were unstable? What if it was about piercing your newborn's nose?

The people who care what other parents do with respect to circing. All weirdos and unstable. There is a lot of overlap with that group and anti-vaxers.

Let's take a look at this:

Vaccinations -- many are evidence based and have saved lives.
Circumcision -- no compelling medical evidence.

I follow evidence based practice. My kids are vaccinated if there is research that backs that up (as there frequently, but not always is). My kids are not cut because there is no compelling reason do to it and many compelling reasons to leave them as perfect as they were born.

If you want to discuss vaccinations more thoroughly, I suggest you start your own thread.

Every anti-vax person I know is also anti-circ.

Does the opposite hold true? Because I can tell you right now that I do vaccinate and would never mutilate my child's sexual organs.

HAHA this is ridiculous